208 replies to this topic

[Garegaupa]

Antonius Prime, on 09 October 2014 - 01:13 AM, said:

I really appreciate your hard work and that things are moving along so well in recent months. Thank you.

First, an agreements with another suggestion:
Yes, let people bring only two mechs and have to be real good in them. It will truly be a choice that will challenge, not some advantage of any kind. Maybe even set the tonnage limit in a manner that would require you to use mechs in the middle ranges of each class in order to be able to fit 4. That will actually give mechs like the Locust an actual purpose. "Hey, I really want to take the Orion instead of this Dragon. I guess I'll bump my Raven down to a Locust." Not the best example, but I think you can get my point.

Now for my concern which I stated in the last thread, but I want to sum it up here. If you want to get a more detailed view of what I was saying, you can check it out in this thread. http://mwomercs.com/...k/page__st__320
I have a concern. I, as with most of the community, have been waiting for CW. This will likely take up most of my gaming time with MWO once it is implemented. I have chosen to invest my real life cash into this game. I want to support it, but I also want to be able to utilize my rewards for such investment. If I have to choose IS or Clan and can't use the other, I will feel I have wasted my real life money on either my Clan Packs or my Founders/Phoenix/Reinforcement Packs and Hero mechs. I hope and assume that as the timeline progresses, we will eventually be able to play with mixed tech on the same team, like how open drops are currently. In the meantime, though, is there any creative solution that could allow players to be able to utilize the things they paid real money for in CW?

I mean, it could be quite some time before we reach another Phase and I don't want to shelve things I paid for. I also want to have some reason to spend more money in buying/upgrading my Wave II investment. If I can't even make worthwhile use of the mechs for who knows how long, why should I not just wait to get them for C-Bills? I'm sure you want to give me and others no reason to not spend more money.

Also, there are many Units who are now dealing with internal struggles because they have to choose a side. These are social Units and not role-playing Units. Their common connection is that they are friends and want to play alongside each other. They are not united around wanting to be Clan or IS. Forcing the choice at this current stage of CW, before there are other options, threatens to split such groups over the choice of Clan or IS, which would weaken the community as a whole.

I fleshed out my suggestion in the other thread, but I will try to give the general idea here. In order to allow players to use things they paid real money for, but to also preserve the feeling of immersion with segregated matches between Clan and IS. Allow Players/Units the option to choose a Primary Faction and a Secondary one that does not share a border with their Primary choice.

This would prevent FRR guys from also choosing Clan Ghost Bear, for example in order to throw matches. Instead, they would have to pick a Clan that bordered someone else like Kurita. Kurita being their enemy, why in the world would their Unit invest Unit Coffers into throwing a match to benefit their enemy IS faction? Doesn't make sense and won't happen.

So, their Primary Faction would be their "actual" Faction. Consider their Secondary Faction as basically playing as NPC's for that Faction. It is just a way to allow players to make use of their money investments without totally breaking immersion. Once there is a clear path to be able to use the stuff you bought (salvage, taking certain planets, whatever) this would no longer be necessary and could be removed as an option. It would be a temporary solution to a temporary problem that could become quite contentious and costly to PGI if no solution is presented. I know I have $120 bucks of currently potential investment riding on the line. Multiply that by all the other people who feel the same way I do. Not to mention that, if my Unit chooses IS or Clan, I have all the real money I spent on the other tech feeling wasted. Again, once an option to gain/earn access to the other tech is present in CW, then there will no longer be a need to continue offering this option.

Any Units/Players who feel that having access to both sides would totally break the immersion would be free not to select a Secondary Faction. It would be an option, not a requirement. Besides, this is a FPS/Strategy game. It is not a RP title. I didn't pay a $15 dollar a month subscription to get access to the game in general. I did not pay $5 for a skin or character that I can't use in the main story line. Then you could legitimately just tell me to suck it up and deal. I am talking about having paid hundreds of dollars to use specific mechs. Not even having the ability to gain use of them in the main game just isn't an acceptable option IMO. I would feel totally jipped.

I'm in the same situation, and I really like this idea! It sounds like an ideal way to get the best of both worlds from the get-go!

[Rizzwind]

^ all of the above.

[OznerpaG]

Antonius Prime, on 09 October 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

I really appreciate your hard work and that things are moving along so well in recent months. Thank you.

Now for my concern which I stated in the last thread, but I want to sum it up here. If you want to get a more detailed view of what
.......

I fleshed out my suggestion in the other thread, but I will try to give the general idea here. In order to allow players to use things they paid real money for, but to also preserve the feeling of immersion with segregated matches between Clan and IS. Allow Players/Units the option to choose a Primary Faction and a Secondary one that does not share a border with their Primary choice.

This would prevent FRR guys from also choosing Clan Ghost Bear, for example in order to throw matches. Instead, they would have to pick a Clan that bordered someone else like Kurita. Kurita being their enemy, why in the world would their Unit invest Unit Coffers into throwing a match to benefit their enemy IS faction? Doesn't make sense and won't happen.

So, their Primary Faction would be their "actual" Faction. Consider their Secondary Faction as basically playing as NPC's for that Faction. It is just a way to allow players to make use of their money investments without totally breaking immersion. Once there is a clear path to be able to use the stuff you bought (salvage, taking certain planets, whatever) this would no longer be necessary and could be removed as an option. It would be a temporary solution to a temporary problem that could become quite contentious and costly to PGI if no solution is presented. I know I have $120 bucks of currently potential investment riding on the line. Multiply that by all the other people who feel the same way I do. Not to mention that, if my Unit chooses IS or Clan, I have all the real money I spent on the other tech feeling wasted. Again, once an option to gain/earn access to the other tech is present in CW, then there will no longer be a need to continue offering this option.

Any Units/Players who feel that having access to both sides would totally break the immersion would be free not to select a Secondary Faction. It would be an option, not a requirement. Besides, this is a FPS/Strategy game. It is not a RP title. I didn't pay a $15 dollar a month subscription to get access to the game in general. I did not pay $5 for a skin or character that I can't use in the main story line. Then you could legitimately just tell me to suck it up and deal. I am talking about having paid hundreds of dollars to use specific mechs. Not even having the ability to gain use of them in the main game just isn't an acceptable option IMO. I would feel totally jipped.

could make everyone's 2nd faction automatically either 'Clan Loyalist' or 'Lone Wolf', and if you decided to play for your 2nd faction you could drop in any battle which would not affect your Prime Faction in any way

for example if you align to Kurita, and you decide to drop in one of your clan mechs it would be as a 'Clan Loyalist' and you would not be able to drop on any planet in the Draconis Combine or either of it's neighbors Rasalhauge, or the Federated Suns (neighbor by Periphery side, not the center of the IS)


that being said, i read that PGI wants to keep the PUG queue active and as your primary source of CB income so you can always drop with your 'other half' in the PUG queue and make cash. i was personally hoping i'd never have to drop in the stinking PUG queue ever again

Edited by JagdFlanker, 09 October 2014 - 12:36 PM.

[Kreisel]

There is a lot of concern about players having to shift their factions to one of them main established factions, and while I think you are trying to be as clear as possible that it is only a temporary situation there is still a lot of emotionally charged confusion among the player base. While I understand enough about programming to know why you are forcing people into one of those groups for the initial release of CW Phase 2 (testing for balance of the base system before adding additional complex factors, not wanting to delay the entire feature in order to take the very large amount of time it would require to implement factions functioning in an entirely different way) it is still a very emotional thing to be told you wont be allowed to represent the group you identify with and will have to choose to represent a group other than the one you feel you are a part of. So please just acknowledge that those feelings are legitimate and that after CW phase 2 goes out, finding ways to acknowledge players who represent one of those other groups will be a high priority: but you are doing the best you can to get this feature out to us to play with and make sure it works correctly as quickly as possible and that means keeping it simple at first.

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Remember that modules are considered end-game content. They are hard to unlock and relatively expensive to purchase which means the decision making behind what you spend your CBills on is a very consious decision that you make on a case by case basis.

You can say CW is end game content but please don't try to claim modules are end game content. Modules are 'gear' or 'loot' that helps you face end game content they are not in themselves end game content. Especially because they incentivize earning them as quickly as possible (at the cost of branching out into new content like more mechs) to feel competitive.

There is a problem with the idea of 'End Game Content' that offers and statistical advantage in a game like MWO and any PVP based game. Stat based 'End game' is a PVE concept in which players make their way through one challenge after another to work up to more difficult by earning the stats they need to take on bigger and more complex challenges. It's about making a player go through a progression to reach a final tier of content. When your only tiers of content are other players this becomes a problem, because their is no separation between 'End Game' and new or 'mid-level' players. Instead of facing challenges which are statistically designed to not require the earned 'end game' bonuses, players with no modules and new mechs are forced to fight players with fully customized mastered mechs with a full set of modules and consumables. This means, not only does the new player have the lack of experience to contend with but, is actually stacked against foes who are literally more powerful. ELO helps with this, but frankly part of the problem is ELO does not account for placing players in different brackets based on if the mech is Basic, Elite, Mastered, or has all it's modules. There is no way for a new player to avoid facing 'End Game Content' which he/she is not yet prepared for.

I'm not saying they don't have a place but Modules are not 'end game content' they are reward for time played. End game content is increased challenges for experienced players, end game content is giving the modules to the mechs shooting AT you and saying 'okay, are you good enough now to take on this challenge and still win.' Not 'here are some noobs, you shoot faster, father, have better detection, better speed and more maneuverability than they do, have fun roflstomping.'

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Is dropship mode the only mode available for CW? Will there be any way for people who do not want to play respawn mode to not play respawn mode, and still take part in CW?
As stated last time, Drop Ship mode is slated for CW use only.

I'm sorry to put it this way but, that wording doesn't really seem to answer the question, You have been clear we will only play Drop ship mode in CW. But what isn't as clear is will there (eventually) also be other modes of play in CW that do not use Dropship? (or is that yet to be determined)

Quote

If a planet is attacked, and no defenders show up within a reasonable time frame, the attackers will automatically get the win on that planet.

While that seems fair at a first glance, I have one concern about such a system: what happens if one faction simply has more players than another and ques for more attacks than the players of the other faction can realistically meet? Do planets start to go to the faction with more players by default by issuing more challenges than the defending player and respond to?

EDIT: Also I applaud you to sticking to your guns on the 4 mech limit even if you shifted to the Tonnage restrictions. 240 tons is well chosen if you want to encourage a variety of weights, It fits well for bringing 1 mech of each size, stacking mechs in the mid-sized range and allows for a combination of the max extreme's possible "Bring two 100 ton Mechs and two 20 Ton Mechs." You want to bring two Atlas yes we will allow that, but if/ when they die your last 2 Mechs are Locusts.

Edited by Kreisel, 09 October 2014 - 01:28 PM.

[Hoax415]

CapperDeluxe, on 09 October 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

I think 240 tons is perfect, but you really REALLY shouldn't require people to take 4 mechs. If someone wants to field 2 Atlases why force them to take two locusts along as well? They most certainly are there just to fulfill the requirement, as an Atlas pilot isn't going to actually "use" them. It doesn't make sense to me at all.

This is a pretty flimsy problem. If they are actually a 100 ton purist I suppose they can buy 2 locusts, leave them stock and refuse to use them if both their Atlas are destroyed. Seems pretty foolish and stupid to me but whatever. Bottom line is its such an outlier situation that who cares?

Deathlike, on 09 October 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

My point was simply that yes, there will be forfeitures of matches. However, it should not be the primary factor of owning territory. It's understandable that smaller factions will have less territory by nature, because you can only have so many people defending. The idea that you'd win solely by overwhelming force (like say the biggest clan faction decides to overrun one of the smallest IS factions in the game) because there's not enough people to defend is not considered "good for the game". I DID NOT SAY planets wouldn't be lost. It shouldn't be an easy freebie.

Well that's why CW doesn't run 24/7 so that there is less time where low population leads to matches against nobody. That's why CW doesn't just allow you to attack any planet you feel like.

Hopefully they are planning on releasing some information about how they will be balancing the populations of factions.

A super obvious one would be that larger factions find themselves with more planets to defend. So FRR might only have 2 of their planets under attack on a given day while Davion might have 10 if the populations were that different. At this time though we haven't heard anything about these kinds of systems and its a major element missing from CW.

[Augustus Martelus II]

Hmmm its like between 140 to 240 tons....could we have a some reward (in c-bill) if we drop lower than 240 tons?

[Hoax415]

Quote

There is a problem with the idea of 'End Game Content' that offers and statistical advantage in a game like MWO and any PVP based game. Stat based 'End game' is a PVE concept in which players make their way through one challenge after another to work up to more difficult by earning the stats they need to take on bigger and more complex challenges. It's about making a player go through a progression to reach a final tier of content. When your only tiers of content are other players this becomes a problem, because their is no separation between 'End Game' and new or 'mid-level' players. Instead of facing challenges which are statistically designed to not the earned 'end game' bonuses players with no modules and new mechs are forced to fight players with fully customized mastered mechs with a full set of modules and consumables. This means not only does the new player have the lack of experience to contend with but is actually stacked against foes who are literally more powerful. ELO helps with this, but frankly part of the problem is ELO does not account for placing players in different brackets based on if the mech is Basic, Elite, Mastered, or has all it's modules. There is no way for a new player to avoid facing 'End Game Content' which he/she is not yet prepared for.

This is a really good post, the formatting sucked though. Hopefully someone at PGI sees it.

The currently plan for Modules in CW, especially now that weapon modules are just flat upgrades is really really poor and punitive. This is made even worse when we consider that CW is by design a less great place to earn cbills so players without full sets of modules for four mechs will be at that disadvantage for even longer if they play the game type (CW) that they want to play and need the modules for.

[Threat Doc]

Hoax415, on 09 October 2014 - 01:07 PM, said:

This is a pretty flimsy problem. If they are actually a 100 ton purist I suppose they can buy 2 locusts, leave them stock and refuse to use them if both their Atlas are destroyed. Seems pretty foolish and stupid to me but whatever. Bottom line is its such an outlier situation that who cares?

What you see as a "pretty flimsy problem" is very important to a lot of people, if you've been keeping up with these forums. It's a flimsy problem FOR YOU, but not for many of us. I don't have a lot of 'Mechs in my stables, and I've been playing for two of the nearly three years -this month, in fact- since MWO was announced. There are a lot of people who don't have a lot of 'Mechs, whether because they can't afford them, they don't want them because, to them, they suck or, like me, simply don't want or need a huge stable of 'Mechs. Nope, I'm not interested in driving most of the 'Mechs out there. My BattleMaster's are supposed to be for Command and Control, of which I should only ever needed to have purchased one. My Catapult's are my main drivers, though I'm still going to get rid of that stupid-ass K2, God I hate driving that thing. I have my Wolverine's and Kintaro's, but the Kintaro's are starting to get old because they don't have jump jets, and I like that mobility, and then there's that lone Jenner I have. I can't get rid of that for both sentimental and paid-for reasons, and it can be fun every so often to run around like a monkey on crack and shoot a couple of things with my serious deficit of Light skills before I get ganked in the back.

So, it's not easy for me to build a group of four 'Mechs that I might actually not feel like I'm getting a hole drilled in my brain. Three, okay, I can do that, and pretty easily within the tonnage limitations; four, I have zero interest in buying a Commando or a Firestarter. Forcing me to take four 'Mechs is just as silly as forcing people to play on maps they're not interested in just so all game modes are being used readily in the game.

In short, this is not an outlier situation... and there are a lot of people who care.

[PhoenixNMGLB]

Kay Wolf, on 09 October 2014 - 01:55 PM, said:

What you see as a "pretty flimsy problem" is very important to a lot of people, if you've been keeping up with these forums. It's a flimsy problem FOR YOU, but not for many of us. I don't have a lot of 'Mechs in my stables, and I've been playing for two of the nearly three years -this month, in fact- since MWO was announced. There are a lot of people who don't have a lot of 'Mechs, whether because they can't afford them, they don't want them because, to them, they suck or, like me, simply don't want or need a huge stable of 'Mechs. Nope, I'm not interested in driving most of the 'Mechs out there. My BattleMaster's are supposed to be for Command and Control, of which I should only ever needed to have purchased one. My Catapult's are my main drivers, though I'm still going to get rid of that stupid-ass K2, God I hate driving that thing. I have my Wolverine's and Kintaro's, but the Kintaro's are starting to get old because they don't have jump jets, and I like that mobility, and then there's that lone Jenner I have. I can't get rid of that for both sentimental and paid-for reasons, and it can be fun every so often to run around like a monkey on crack and shoot a couple of things with my serious deficit of Light skills before I get ganked in the back.

So, it's not easy for me to build a group of four 'Mechs that I might actually not feel like I'm getting a hole drilled in my brain. Three, okay, I can do that, and pretty easily within the tonnage limitations; four, I have zero interest in buying a Commando or a Firestarter. Forcing me to take four 'Mechs is just as silly as forcing people to play on maps they're not interested in just so all game modes are being used readily in the game.

In short, this is not an outlier situation... and there are a lot of people who care.

I was on the fence on this issue until I read this. I totally love the fact that it is now a tonnage limit with a min/max.

How about min/max mech numbers as well. Say 2-4? I think that balances things better and should keep everyone happy?

[Sadist Cain]

I must apologise, i didn't fully absorb the rest of the post with my ejection sadness.

Low-altitude mech drops you say? animations and whatnot?

Well sir I do believe i can fly very excited. I do hope we'll get some first person animations also.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Hm... 240 tons and you NEED 4 mechs

So this is aimed at ppl who play light/med Im guessing?

I play assaults pretty much exclusively, occasionally a Catapult, I dont even own a medium anymore and lights make me motion sick. Im not fitting 4 assault/heavies in that limit, especially when my favorite mech is the Atlas or Warhawk.

No snark really intended though it will be read into it anways but the phrase ,"Not the target audience" comes to mind

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 09 October 2014 - 03:03 PM.

[MightyMeatShield]

Is it still PGI's intent to eventually implement CW into what was described last year at the launch party? Video at link below:

http://youtu.be/Jpwbt47M6Yw

[Solis Obscuri]

Quote

[color=#a8e558]Is it possible to add a little faction icon maybe to every mech in the store / the mechlab, so that one can see at a glance all the factions that use that specific 'Mech?[/color]

With Phase 2 focussing on Clan and IS separation only, there is no need for this icon. However, as we move forward into future features like historic or specialized battles, we will indicate which 'Mechs will be valid for which types of conflicts at that point.

I'm very disappointed that there is so little focus on differentiating the Inner Sphere houses and their conflicts. It's just blue vs. red vs. yellow vs. green vs. purple. I was hoping for real faction warfare, not just another selling point for ClanTech.

[Kreisel]

Will the Gate power generator be targetable, can you lock onto it with LRM/SSRM? Can it be Narc'ed? I Can see indirect fire from LRM having a major impact because it's stationary even if a lock is not held the Missiles are likely to hit the target. On the one hand... making this the case would make LRM and ECM counters to protect the Generator very powerful... on the other hand only being able to dumbfire LRM at the generator would severly nerf them and screw over SSRM lights with JJ.

Is there a plan in place to stop Artillery/Air Strike Spam on the generator to kill it? With the counter to Arty/Air strikes being moving away from it in time and the generator unable to move I foresee this being a potential problem.

Around what kind of range can we expect from the spots you can peek over the hills to shoot the generator. Will Small lasers and SRM be out of range? How about Medium lasers, AC20 will it be far enough they see reduced damage?

While we are on the subject, generally speaking how hard are the generators to kill? Are they going to go down fast or take a lot of damage, considering how quickly many builds can put out hundreds of damage on targets that are easy to hit it's going to have to have a LOT of health to last up to a team attacking it, how do you balance that to allow a few lights jumping the fence and hitting an unguarded generator (or base) actually being a threat?

Edited by Kreisel, 09 October 2014 - 03:47 PM.

[OznerpaG]

about the "4 mechs or nothing" rule - let's be clear that any specific planet battle in CW will be an x number of 12v12 matches, each player has 4 mechs for respawn so in a way each battle is 48v48, and each battle will earn 1 single token for either side.

if you have a great game and you are on the winning side, you might go through the entire battle piloting only your first mech you drop with so in those cases you won't even drop with your 2nd, 3rd and 4th mech

though you NEED 4 mechs for your dropship, even if your last 2 picks are trial mechs it doesn't mean you will end up piloting them in a lot of matches if you are good enough to survive with the first mechs you pick to drop with

that being said, that crappy Locust you threw on as that 4th mech weight filler might be the mech that wins you the match - anything can happen on any given match


and this would be a reminder that if you drop with your AC20 Raven as one of your 4 mechs in CW, it would be best if you saved it for last deployment since it only has 3t of ammo haha

Edited by JagdFlanker, 09 October 2014 - 04:08 PM.

[Docta Pain]

I LOVE the 240 ton 4 mech system!!!! LOVE it!!! Since the heaviest is 100t and lightest is 20t the average is 60t... Multiply times 4... YES!! I hate feeling like I'm penalizing my team when I bring a Jagermech instead of a Mad Cat, which is true in the weight class system, but now the essence of the matter is making each ton count, and I LOVE it!

On an unrelated note... If I bring 120t only do I get a 100% c-bill bonus? Only seems logical, and you might have guessed I'm a numbers guy.

Aaaaaand you aren't really going to make CW drops cost c-bills AND decrease/not offset the cost with more rewards for a CW win are you? I mean, you wouldn't... would you?

And about respawns... Will you provide an example? Like, blue team loses three mechs, when fourth is lost a leaopard dropship swoops in and drops th respawners.. Red team eventually wins without using 6 respawns, so the team gets a 1% bonus and the players get 10% of the c-bill base variant cost that they didn't use? Like that.

[Lindonius]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 October 2014 - 03:02 PM, said:

Hm... 240 tons and you NEED 4 mechs

So this is aimed at ppl who play light/med Im guessing?

I play assaults pretty much exclusively, occasionally a Catapult, I dont even own a medium anymore and lights make me motion sick. Im not fitting 4 assault/heavies in that limit, especially when my favorite mech is the Atlas or Warhawk.

No snark really intended though it will be read into it anways but the phrase ,"Not the target audience" comes to mind

I don't think they were ever going to allow people to drop into CW with a dropship full of nothing but Atlases. It's kind of naive to think that they would (or should for that matter).

Edited by Lindonius, 09 October 2014 - 04:11 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

Has there been any thought to using drop weight limits in lieu of class limits in public matches?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Lindonius, on 09 October 2014 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't think they were ever going to allow people to drop into CW with a dropship full of nothing but Atlases. It's kind of naive to think that they would (or should for that matter).

Steiner scout mechs so why not?

But yeah, Assault pilots are not the target audience here

Edited by Mechwarrior Buddah, 09 October 2014 - 04:18 PM.

[Lindonius]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 09 October 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Steiner scout mechs so why not?

You know that's actually a joke right?