88 replies to this topic

[Dracol]

FupDup, on 12 October 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

I was talking about the regular SRM2, not the Streak 2.

Ah, in that case:
SRM2 cooldown 2secs
SRM4 cooldown 3secs (50% slower than SRM2)
SRM6 cooldwon 4seccs (100% slower than SRM2)

So, if you are looking to fire off SRMs as fast as you can, then you go with SRM2s.

[Dracol]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

Nope, just friendly counter ecm or BAP if multiple ecm mechs are not in proximity. Considering the prevalence of ECM in game, having to know about, pack and use a counter (which only works if you come across the ecm solo, and not in a pck), I consider it still pretty much more of a noob trap, than friendly.

hmmm.... I wonder. Once I get my desktop PC up and running again I might just have to make a fresh account to see how much ECM is in the matches new players participate in.

In the higher ELO brackets I certainly agree with you, but if lower ELO players are not facing nearly as much ECM, then they wouldn't be nearly as much of a noob trap as you claim.

[FupDup]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

But...then people mount SRM2s in favor of 4s...like they do with LRM5s...

The LRM5 has a much tighter spread, which gives a reason to use them if you have surplus hardpoints. Both of the small launchers have a faster cooldown, but the LRM5 can make better use of its cooldown due to their longer range and indirect fire ability. The SRM2 requires facetanking for that, which is a lot riskier...

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

No matter what you do, 4-5 weapons will dominate the game. No matter what. You. Do.

While Paul is the one handling balance, yes.

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

SRM2s had a niche role, they were for mechs that were incredibly light, or were an afterthought. Later on some designs had them because the rules had changed over the years, so that there were more things you can do with them.

But yes, even without TACs SRM2s are about CRITS.

The idea of something like a PPC+2xSRM2 Panther (or SRM4, but 2x2s is better) is that you fire the PPC first, it destroys the armor some where on a light mech, and then the SRMs are going to hit next for crit rolls. Their damage isnt really important thats not why you mount them. You mount them because theyre light cheap ways to get crits. Youve 4 (potentially 12 crits) chances coming out of 2xSRM2s, where youve got 2, potentially 6, out of 2xmed lasers. (and for less heat, important back in the days of SHS only)

Chances are the med lasers wont destroy the location.

Thats the perk to them.

Thats not the case in MWO.

An SRM2 has 2 chances to do crits (1 per missile). The launcher is 1 ton and the ammo is 1 ton. If you use 2 ML for the same weight, you also get 2 chances to crit, and a number of other benefits...

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

But if you buff them, they just replace SRM4s.

That would only happen if the buff was egregiously large. I think just cutting the spread by a big margin and maybe -1 point of heat would suffice here. Probably wouldn't be meta anytime soon, but maybe it might see some niche uses...

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Buffing streaks, which is really a glamor weapon and comes AFTER infernos and alternate ammo types were added to the game....is pointless. That weapon system really shouldnt be in the game because its specifically designed to fight vehicles and infantry...things that take more damage from SRMs in the open, or the crit magnet vehicles like Savanahh masters that are always posting insanely high To-Hit numbers. You dont want to be throwing away all yer ammo missing. Streaks are a way to cut down on total ammo so you have less ammo to be assploded.

Streaks in MWO don't work like they did in TT. MWO SSRMs are basically ghetto "aimbots" with low precision (hit the majority of the time, but not always where you want it...). TT SSRMs were to save ammo and heat by not firing the launcher when they were predicted to not fully hit.

Edited by FupDup, 12 October 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[FupDup]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

...Its something you mount because you have to...

But you don't ever have to, because you can tweak every other part of your robot to accommodate better choices. The line of argument "you only use X if you can't do anything else" doesn't work because you can do anything else.

[Kodyn]

Aren't SSRMs used specifically for the purpose of legging and disarming mechs? I thought that's why they were used so much vs. lights and in packs to disable clans with tough hitboxes, because you absolutely know that they are going arms and legs....


So knowing all this, why would anyone be trying to hit a CT with SSRMS?

[Escef]

IMHO, the only buff Spheroid Streaks require is about 8 1/2 years off in timeline: the 4 and 6 packs. We get those and I fully expect many of the IS mechs with a single missile hardpoint to suddenly have a Streak6 and a BAP, just in case.

[KraftySOT]

FupDup, on 12 October 2014 - 08:53 AM, said:

The LRM5 has a much tighter spread, which gives a reason to use them if you have surplus hardpoints. Both of the small launchers have a faster cooldown, but the LRM5 can make better use of its cooldown due to their longer range and indirect fire ability. The SRM2 requires facetanking for that, which is a lot riskier...

Which you should never ever ever ever take an SRM2 over a 6, unless you have to. And if you have to, you have nothing to complain about.

"While Paul is the one handling balance, yes."

No...it doesnt matter who does it, thats the maximum amount of useful weapons. No matter how you buff and nerf, the meta will always rise to the top.

Quote

An SRM2 has 2 chances to do crits (1 per missile). The launcher is 1 ton and the ammo is 1 ton. If you use 2 ML for the same weight, you also get 2 chances to crit, and a number of other benefits...

No you dont get a number of other benefits, you get the same range, and 6 heat which prevents you firing the PPC and 2 ML on almost every light in existence (10 SHS). So youre at a net loss of effectiveness. Where as I can fire a PPC and 2xSRM2s and run, and be under the to hit penalty next turn. The TT is all about BREACH and CRIT.

Quote

That would only happen if the buff was egregiously large. I think just cutting the spread by a big margin and maybe -1 point of heat would suffice here. Probably wouldn't be meta anytime soon, but maybe it might see some niche uses...

But why? Why not just wait until theres Inferno SRMs to see them have a niche use.

Quote

Streaks in MWO don't work like they did in TT. MWO SSRMs are basically ghetto "aimbots" with low precision (hit the majority of the time, but not always where you want it...). TT SSRMs were to save ammo and heat by not firing the launcher when they were predicted to not fully hit.

And theyre an afterthought. Theres no reason they SHOULD be useful.

[Screech]

SSRM 2's are still more popular the SRM 2's so I would think you need to fix SRM 2's first.

And SSRM should not be 2.5 unless SRM are set to that value as well.

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 08:42 AM, said:

No one ever should CHOOSE to mount an SRM2.

Its something you mount because you have to, or have left over space. Ideally, you want an SRM6, if not a 6, then a 4, if not a 4, an entirely different weapon system.

This thread blows my ever loving mind.

no weapon should ever be "because that's all you can fit".

That train of thought, blows my mind. Especially since in those cases, you can only mount one, so you are reinforcing mounting a single bad weapon. Thats pointless. Small weapons, boated in large numbers, should still be effective. Simply not more effective than heavier weapons, as to not obsolete the bigger guns. A single SRM2, SSRM2, or LRM5, are for all intents and purposes useless. Good weapon balance should allow for them to have their niche though, used en masse.

[KraftySOT]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

no weapon should ever be "because that's all you can fit".

That train of thought, blows my mind. Especially since in those cases, you can only mount one, so you are reinforcing mounting a single bad weapon. Thats pointless. Small weapons, boated in large numbers, should still be effective. Simply not more effective than heavier weapons, as to not obsolete the bigger guns. A single SRM2, SSRM2, or LRM5, are for all intents and purposes useless. Good weapon balance should allow for them to have their niche though, used en masse.

No I mean because youve already filled up your armor, your weapons hardpoints with the build you want, youve got all the heatsinks you need ... but hey theres still some tons and a missile hard point.

Lets throw on an SRM2.

That should be the only reason you ever mount one.

And since its based on a "rating"....being tubes...

The way you boat an SRM2

Is with SRM6s. There...you just boated 3 of them

Want 6 SRM2s?

Mount two SRM6s,

Edited by KraftySOT, 12 October 2014 - 09:15 AM.

[Koniving]

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 04:52 AM, said:

I always considered SSRMs as noob friendly weapons used before one got good at the game. Or, used by anti light hunters who have trouble hitting fast mechs. If you want a damaging SRM, you go with the SRM 4 or SRM 6.

The only time they were really popular was when they were hitting the CT way to often.

Here's the funny thing about that.
This was the CT only Streak.


Here it is in a longer battle.


And here ever since.




Streaks are blatantly superior now to back then.
TL;DW:
The old streaks may have only gone for CT but would hit anything and everything they encountered (so you can block them). They did, however, miss. Frequently. It was possible to completely dodge the missiles. Fast mechs could NOT use streaks effectively without slowing down to half speed. Fast at the time was 120+ kph. Streaks did not really work against targets faster than 97 kph.

The current streaks NEVER miss, even when it requires the blatant defilement of all laws of physics, they always hit with impossible agility. You can fire a streak in front of you, have it do a full 180 in place, and go through you to hit the enemy target that is behind you. This is literally possible and was a thing back when 360 degree target retention was combined with target decay when they first came out.

Bring the old streaks, I'll laugh at you and kill you with SRMs.

Bring the new ones and I'll have to kill you without laughing.

--------------

In response to the original poster...
Clan streaks used to fire once every 3.5 seconds for Streak 2, and take up to 8 seconds for Streak-6s to fire.

You might also note that Clan mechs have negative missile quirks for large number of missile launchers. For example the Timber Wolf gets a negative 5% firing speed per side torso with twin launchers. If he equipped 4 Streak-2s, he has to wait 3.85 seconds to fire again.
If you equip 4 Streak-2s you have to wait 3.5 seconds.
Streak-6s by themselves wait 6 seconds now. If that Timber Wolf equipped them he'd wait 6.6 seconds.

I think where PGI screwed up was reducing the wait times.

Also keep in mind that you in a 60 ton Battlemech with a standard 300 engine, endo steel and maximum armor can equip 19.43 tons of stuff. Example.
In an XL engine of the same size, you can equip 28.93 tons of stuff. Example.

A 60 ton Omnimech has...26.03 tons to work with, using an XL engine. Example.

So you can fit in quite a bit. I didn't count the two DHS he's stuck with because he's stuck with them. You're not. In terms of 4 Streak-2s, you balance out the same. This is because a streak is not half the weight for Clans. It's 0.5 tons less.
Streak 2 for IS: 1.5 tons.
Streak 2 for Clan: 1 ton.

Though in most cases, the Clans can't even equip that much. That's a very high amount for a Clan mech.
The Timber Wolf, 15 tons more, has endo steel as well and yet only gets 27.46 tons to work with and less space to do it in.

How often do you see Clan mechs using Streak-2s? For that matter how often do they run Streak-6s?
Almost never.

Edited by Koniving, 12 October 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[FupDup]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

Which you should never ever ever ever take an SRM2 over a 6, unless you have to. And if you have to, you have nothing to complain about.

There is no situation of "have to." Customize your robot harder.

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

"While Paul is the one handling balance, yes."

No...it doesnt matter who does it, thats the maximum amount of useful weapons. No matter how you buff and nerf, the meta will always rise to the top.

"The meta" could include more gunz if 'everybody's favorite balance designer' cared enough.

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

No you dont get a number of other benefits, you get the same range, and 6 heat which prevents you firing the PPC and 2 ML on almost every light in existence (10 SHS). So youre at a net loss of effectiveness. Where as I can fire a PPC and 2xSRM2s and run, and be under the to hit penalty next turn. The TT is all about BREACH and CRIT.

Most of the time, the heat is handled just by your engine sinks. In the case of the stock Panther you're using, that's a Panther-specific problem. (Also, the Panther doesn't even use SRM2, it uses an SRM4, so it's not a valid example).

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

But why? Why not just wait until theres Inferno SRMs to see them have a niche use.

Infernos can be used by any SRM launcher, so that doesn't really change the situation.

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

And theyre an afterthought. Theres no reason they SHOULD be useful.

The workhorse of the Inner Sphere is an afterthought, and yet one of the best weapons in BT overall...

[Bishop Steiner]

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 08:51 AM, said:

hmmm.... I wonder. Once I get my desktop PC up and running again I might just have to make a fresh account to see how much ECM is in the matches new players participate in.

In the higher ELO brackets I certainly agree with you, but if lower ELO players are not facing nearly as much ECM, then they wouldn't be nearly as much of a noob trap as you claim.

Still pretty much everywhere, in every match I play, a little more hit and miss in solo. Add in Myst Lynx and Hellbringer soon, and it's only getting worse, not better.

Certainly, a LRM or such can be dominant when you win the MM lottery and get an acm lite enemy team. But otherwise, even on my barely played 3rd alt, I see an average of 3 ecm per team. Heck, one reason I expect them to avoid giving the IS an ECM heavy anytime soon, or the Clans an ECM assault is to avoid full stealth 12 mans, in CW.

You better believe in casual you'll see some 3 Spider/Raven, 3 CDC-3M, 3 Hellbringer and 3 D-DC drops for the lulz, once Wave II drops.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

You better believe in casual you'll see some 3 Spider/Raven, 3 CDC-3M, 3 Hellbringer and 3 D-DC drops for the lulz, once Wave II drops.

That sounds epic. No red doritos 4 you!

[Bishop Steiner]

KraftySOT, on 12 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

No I mean because youve already filled up your armor, your weapons hardpoints with the build you want, youve got all the heatsinks you need ... but hey theres still some tons and a missile hard point.

Lets throw on an SRM2.

That should be the only reason you ever mount one.

And since its based on a "rating"....being tubes...

The way you boat an SRM2

Is with SRM6s. There...you just boated 3 of them

Want 6 SRM2s?

Mount two SRM6s,

3 srm2 have a higher RoF than a single SRM6, also you don't get all 3 destroyed with one crit. Conversely, more heat generated. Tradeoffs. It what makes them worth it.

If, for instance, I had the option of packing on my Mad Dog, 2x Prime Torsos, with 2 SRM6, or 2x Alpha Torsos, with 6 SRM2,, you have the choice, depending on your build needs, of higher RoF with the 2s, or lower heat with the 6s.

[Dracol]

Koniving, on 12 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

-snip-

Closed beta footage from 2 years ago, nice.
Compared to closed beta, ya streaks are better now since the whirl missile issue was fixed. But compared to 8 months(?) ago, they're not as effective.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 12 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

There is no situation of "have to." Customize your robot harder.



"The meta" could include more gunz if 'everybody's favorite balance designer' cared enough.



Most of the time, the heat is handled just by your engine sinks. In the case of the stock Panther you're using, that's a Panther-specific problem. (Also, the Panther doesn't even use SRM2, it uses an SRM4, so it's not a valid example).



Infernos can be used by any SRM launcher, so that doesn't really change the situation.



The workhorse of the Inner Sphere is an afterthought, and yet one of the best weapons in BT overall...

they upped the tube count? It's been a while since my TT days, but the old rules were SRM2 only.

[Dracol]

Bishop Steiner, on 12 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Still pretty much everywhere, in every match I play, a little more hit and miss in solo. Add in Myst Lynx and Hellbringer soon, and it's only getting worse, not better.

Did you miss the point were I said I was going to see what a new player would see?

I highly doubt you are horrible at playing this game and have an ELO equal to a new players.

[Bishop Steiner]

Dracol, on 12 October 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Did you miss the point were I said I was going to see what a new player would see?

I highly doubt you are horrible at playing this game and have an ELO equal to a new players.

did you miss the part where I mentioned my rarely played alt account? It has like..20 matches. Most pre Elo. Pretty sure, it's a "new player" experience.

Decaf buddy, lol.

[KraftySOT]

*sigh*

No game on earth has more than 6 balanced weapons. Paul is not the problem. Nice scapegoat.

Also in any campaign ive played with a panther (short of the 3025 megamek campaign) ive ripped out my SRM4 and back armor, in favor of 2xSRM2s. Mo' crits yo.

Its also not a panther specific problem. There are almost no light mechs im familiar with, with many heat sinks. Heat is an issue. SRMs cause less hit and more crit prone than medium lasers. Theyre not "better" persay than a medium laser. An SRM2 is pretty meh, but when used for what its intended for, its great. The SRM6 is generally more poweful than the medium laser...but that is situational as well.

It doesnt matter what mech youre talking about...the advantage to SRMs is the spread damage and that each missile can cause a crit. Its the same here. It spreads damage. Its THE weapon (other than MGs) to shoot at mechs down to internals.

Even your SRM2 locust can do this now. Its just basically useless most of the time.

And yes, while you can load infernos into an SRM6, you generally dont. The SRM2s on many mechs after infernos, especially heavy mechs with SRM2s (theres alot actually) are generally intended to be firing specialized ammo out of them. They arent there because theyre effective, theyre there because they have a niche role.

Take for instance the Crusader with the SRMs in the legs...originally it was just a goofy design...but then...Torpedoes.

And SSRM2s are not the work house of the IS...wtf are you talking about.

THE MEDIUM. LASER.

Its like youve never played the TT