124 replies to this topic

[Lyoto Machida]

Yes...the DW needs buffs. Perhaps a speed of 70kph and a quirk that allows 4 Gauss to be fired at once.



Perhaps then, it could at least be as good an an Awesome.

[Kahoumono]

The dwf is fine as it is, classic strength vs speed trade off. I wish this game could move away from the one button mash playstyle though.

[Xyroc]

Direwolf is where it should be IMO

[XxXAbsolutZeroXxX]

Oh, who am I kidding.

Direcow totally needs a nuclear launch button to obliterate foes from orbit. And, a cappuccino maker.

Why stop, there? Include low rider hydraulics and an arsenal of subwoofers. And a jacuzzi with an igloo in the cockpit to cope with mech overheating.

Edited by I Zeratul I, 14 October 2014 - 11:22 AM.

[Ace Selin]

Direwolf is a walking death sentence to all other mechs played well, it certainly doesnt need any buffs at all, no speed or torso twist rate increase needed. It may need to be nerfed actually... A pillbox if you will

[gregsolidus]

I don't know, something with that many guns needs an Achilles heel...

[ACH75]

More Speed or not the unacceptable Dual Gauss + Dual PPC 50+10 Alpha still remains as still remains the problem that often you have to face multiple DWF in a single match with this loadouts that in skilled hands is really deadly...

My preferred Build (Pre-LaserNerf) was 4 uAC5 + 6 ErML and it was a lot of fun, a lot of spread damage but a lot of fun and
i thought the whale was balanced but now the abuse of dual guass and dual gauss + dual ppc loadouts forced people to do the same (fight fire with fire!) or to play different chassis...

IMHO more than 25 Pinpont damage should be forbidden in this game... long live the funny spread!!!

[Cruxs]

Ph30nix, on 14 October 2014 - 10:06 AM, said:

Getting close enough is 100% a pilot skill/map layout issue not a mech op issue,
and i still see IS mech pilots who can reach the same number of kills and dont need as much damage to do it.
so please realize DAMAGE IS NOT A RELIABLE MEASUREMENT OF ANYTHING
also there is a skill issue, everyone i see complaining about the direwolf is in solo que mid to low ELO ranges which i can say mid range is my home as well i believe so im not knocking it.
Games i drop in my Direwolf i can usually tell what ELO range i got thrown with, if i see a enemy mech just sitting in the open trying to take potshots at other mechs i am happy to put them out of their misery.
Also i know when i get put with the higher ELO people because those are the games i usually get wrecked sometimes horribly so.....
getting pecked to death by 2 spiders is the most horrific way to go possible.

I'm glad you think you know my ELO. Getting close to a Direwolf is skill on the part of both teams and players it's not one sided. Damage + Kills + Consistency IS A RELIABLE MEASUREMENT. The Direwolf is a top tier Mech on comp teams not because it's balanced but because its OP. It needs to be brought into line with IS Mechs.

1453 R, on 14 October 2014 - 10:13 AM, said:

Damage numbers don't define OP. Killing ability, and survivability, define OP.


Is the Dire Whale disproportionately good at ending the lives of other players? No. It's got awe-inspiring firepower, but it's so sluggish and difficult to maneuver around that it's only disproportionately good at killing nimrods who stand in front of it and try to beat it in a DPS race. Against opponents who've switched their brains on, the Mired Whale is exceptionally vulnerable to getting outflanked and picked apart. It requires its teammates to cover it and protect its flanks, and even if its team does that, there's no reason for its enemies to just conveniently stand there and get blasted apart. All that unbelievable firepower the Whale carries is hampered pretty tremendously by its mobility.

Yes, it's an absolute face-smasher against idiots who have no idea how to deal with it, but if you do have a clue? You can take out a Whale mano-a-mano in just about anything else that isn't a Whale. I have zero issues whatsoever with them in my Stormcrows, provided I see the Whale before it sees me. And if the Whale spots me first, well, that's on my head, isn't it?

I'm not saying the Direwolf is invincible I have killed plenty it is OP. Like I posted above Your Damage and Kills play apart in your survivability. I'm talking apples to apples. A good Light pilot can take out a lone Direwolf no problem. Even a good fast medium pilot. As far as Assault Mechs go its OP. You can't honestly deny that. PGI needs to bring it into line with the rest of the Assaualt Mechs.

[Ph30nix]

Monkey Lover, on 14 October 2014 - 10:32 AM, said:

Only going to get worse once they buff all the IS mechs. Clans are not worth owning. I wish i could sell mine for MC.

the real terror is going to be when IS mechs get access to Light Fusion Engines
5-10 extra tons for IS assaults/heavies to throw around (for ones that normally use STD engines)

[Sorbic]

I would love to see a 2-3mph higher top speed. I'm relatively new to DW's but am already tired of getting left behind to be picked off/nearly killed before I can even get to the main force. Either fix certain map spawns so you can't be pounced on so darn quickly or toss it a few mph. Plus they need to fix the issue of it getting stuck on the tiniest of inclines when your starting from dead stop. Other than that the thing twists/maneuvers fine (once skilled) as it is.

Of course being able to twist a tiny bit farther would also help with the fight while catching up thing but I'd prefer extra top speed.

[Revis Volek]

gregsolidus, on 14 October 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I don't know, something with that many guns needs an Achilles heel...

It has one....anywhere past 90 degrees in its torso twist is its "Achilles" ever get behind one and shot its back? Looks like it has ants in its pants!

I say this ALL THE TIME! If a DWF see's you coming....you are doing it wrong.

Edited by DarthRevis, 14 October 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Ph30nix]

cruxholzer, on 14 October 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

I'm glad you think you know my ELO. Getting close to a Direwolf is skill on the part of both teams and players it's not one sided. Damage + Kills + Consistency IS A RELIABLE MEASUREMENT. The Direwolf is a top tier Mech on comp teams not because it's balanced but because its OP. It needs to be brought into line with IS Mechs.



I'm not saying the Direwolf is invincible I have killed plenty it is OP. Like I posted above Your Damage and Kills play apart in your survivability. I'm talking apples to apples. A good Light pilot can take out a lone Direwolf no problem. Even a good fast medium pilot. As far as Assault Mechs go its OP. You can't honestly deny that. PGI needs to bring it into line with the rest of the Assaualt Mechs.

it already is in line with the rest of the assault mechs in game.
It has ALMOST ZERO sustained fire ability (with exception of dakka builds which are gag builds at best)
the two most common dire builds is
2 Guass 2 ERLL and 6 ERML
2 Guass 2 ERPPC

for both of those builds you cannot fire your beam weapons very often without over heating.
you can fire your ERPPCs 2 times then wait 5-10 seconds and you can fire a third before you cant fire them again for about 10-15 seconds only weapon you can use in that time is your gauss which has its 4 second cooldown+charge time between shots
for the 2ERLL and 6 ERML build you can RARELY fire the 6erml you can chain fire but that just leaves you exposed for too long. you can get in maybe 2 blasts total (with .5 wait to avoid ghost heat) of your lasers before you are heat capped
again after that your down to just your gauss and 2 LL as heat allows (which wont be too often)

so yes the direwolf has a large potential damage and opening, but if you miss or target survives (enemy assaults and most heavies would) you are in trouble because you now have almost no sustained damage and are at about 6-8 dps depending on your aim.

you keep letting yourself be blinded by its alpha potential and thats not the whole story, yes vs a stationary enemy who isnt paying attention it can cause a quick GG but in a firefight it comes down to alot more.

Edited by Ph30nix, 14 October 2014 - 12:15 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Scout Derek, on 14 October 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

Yeah, but Dire Wolfs get overwhelmed anyways if 2 lights are on it, even if it does have Gauss encrusted fists. Maybe increase the torso turn a bit, like say, 5%?

Balanced. If only other mechs had such obvious pros and cons.

Edited by Ghost Badger, 14 October 2014 - 12:14 PM.

[Cruxs]

Ph30nix, on 14 October 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

it already is in line with the rest of the assault mechs in game.
It has ALMOST ZERO sustained fire ability (with exception of dakka builds which are gag builds at best)
the two most common dire builds is
2 Guass 2 ERLL and 6 ERML
2 Guass 2 ERPPC

for both of those builds you cannot fire your beam weapons very often without over heating.
you can fire your ERPPCs 2 times then wait 5-10 seconds and you can fire a third before you cant fire them again for about 10-15 seconds only weapon you can use in that time is your gauss which has its 4 second cooldown+charge time between shots
for the 2ERLL and 6 ERML build you can RARELY fire the 6erml you can chain fire but that just leaves you exposed for too long. you can get in maybe 2 blasts total (with .5 wait to avoid ghost heat) of your lasers before you are heat capped
again after that your down to just your gauss and 2 LL as heat allows (which wont be too often)

so yes the direwolf has a large potential damage and opening, but if you miss or target survives (enemy assaults and most heavies would) you are in trouble because you now have almost no sustained damage and are at about 6-8 dps depending on your aim.

you keep letting yourself be blinded by its alpha potential and thats not the whole story, yes vs a stationary enemy who isnt paying attention it can cause a quick GG but in a firefight it comes down to alot more.

Look Ph30nix, I'm not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me but the discussion has been fun.
Just because you have to manage your heat in a Direwolf doesn't make it not OP. I have IS Mechs that run just as hot.
with slow cool downs. Just because you think the 6 uac 5 build is a gag build, doesn't mean it's not effective in the right hands.
Good Direwolf pilots don't miss. I have seen it lots with fast moving targets.

I'm not blinded by the alpha potential. You seem to just discount the numbers. If a Mech game after game can pull 2 to 6 kills and gets over 1000 point damage and you don't think that is the definition of OP the tell me What is OP to you. If you are not pulling those numbers sorry but I see it almost every game.

I'm going to get off my Direwolf rant now. I've made my thoughts clear.

It boils down to the golden rule of MWO if you want to wreck face Meta up or Shut up. You have to constantly change with the nerfs and buffs to stay ahead right now it is the clan Mechs. It will probably stay that way for awhile because if PGI nerfs the clans again it will be a $h!t storm but they need a nerf. The dire wolf doesn't need any type of buff.

[Bilbo]

Ph30nix, on 14 October 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

the real terror is going to be when IS mechs get access to Light Fusion Engines
5-10 extra tons for IS assaults/heavies to throw around (for ones that normally use STD engines)

Unless the push the engine caps up or change up the hard points, there isn't a whole lot more than can be packed onto most of them anyway. The ones that can actually benefit from extra speed generally already use XL.

[1453 R]

cruxholzer, on 14 October 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Look Ph30nix, I'm not going to convince you and you are not going to convince me but the discussion has been fun.

Statements like this only indicate that you're not looking to discuss, you're looking to preach, and anyone who doesn't mindlessly agree with your position can just fly off and go frisk themselves. It's a terrible way to try and get someone to agree with you. Just so y'know.

cruxholzer, on 14 October 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Just because you have to manage your heat in a Direwolf doesn't make it not OP. I have IS Mechs that run just as hot.
with slow cool downs. Just because you think the 6 uac 5 build is a gag build, doesn't mean it's not effective in the right hands.
Good Direwolf pilots don't miss. I have seen it lots with fast moving targets.

Hex C-UAC/5 is a gag build, mostly for sheer giggles. It's a build for dakka fanatics, not people looking to win games. High-end players, when they slum around with the Whale at all (hint: top-end players don't bother with Whales), go for those Gauss-encrusted fists backed by a heap of Clan lasers. Even those Whales have a hard time keeping up with anything outside their own weight class.

cruxholzer, on 14 October 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'm not blinded by the alpha potential. You seem to just discount the numbers. If a Mech game after game can pull 2 to 6 kills and gets over 1000 point damage and you don't think that is the definition of OP the tell me What is OP to you. If you are not pulling those numbers sorry but I see it almost every game.

Puglandia is Puglandia. You can't blame the Whale for being good at killing folks too dumb to come in out of the rain. If you stand in front of it and try to out-DPS it, you're going to lose. Shocker - nothing else in the game holds up to fifty tons of gun wrapped in twenty tons of armor.

I told you what my definition of OP is - a 'Mech that kills more easily, and dies far harder, than anything else on its curve. Or, more accurately, a 'Mech which polarizes or centralizes the game, something powerful enough to force a disproportionate amount of the playerbase to alter what they're doing specifically and solely to deal with the threat. Adjusting strategies mid-match to account for the Whale's vast firepower is fine. Being forced to specifically build Whale-hunting 'Mechs or lose to Whales would not be - but fortunately you don't have to do that. The Whale neither polarizes nor centralizes the game, even with all its firepower.

Definitions Tiem!

Centralization: What happens when a game's metagame ends up revolving around a single unit/character in that game, or a disproportionately small number of units/characters. These units/characters are considered to be markedly more effective than any of their nearest competitors, to the point where they can be considered to have partially or completely invalidated those competitors.

Polarization: Worse than centralization, polarization occurs when a metagame is forced to revolve around defeating a single unit/character, or a disproportionately small subset of units/characters. If your choices are "Run [X]", "Run a purpose-built hard counter to [X]" or "Lose the game", your game is polarized between the extremes of [X] and anti-[X], and you have some very serious issues to work out.

End Definition Tiem!

The Timber Wolf is far closer to being overpowered than the Whale is; the Timber Wolf centralizes the metagame and thus needs to be looked at, but it doesn't really polarize it. Metatarts, back in the height of the PPC Poptart Days, were polarizing, and we saw how well that worked. The Whale is neither centralizing nor polarizing.

The Whale is balanced as it should be - it dominates assault-weight fights, but unlike many other assault 'Mechs, it's threatened by a far wider range of weights than other assault 'Mechs are. A Victor loses to a Dire Whale in a face-to-face slugfest (and any Victor that tries to win that fight is an idiot anyways), but the Victor is a very serious threat to pretty much the entire weight spectrum save for really quick, well-run lights. The Whale stops being a serious threat to anyone but a total slurpaderp in much of anything under eighty tons, provided the under-eighty-tons guy has the engine rating his tonnage warrants and that the Whale doesn't catch him from ambush.

That narrowness of appropriate targets, the Whale's vulnerability to flanking attacks, artillery, and LRMs, and its poor performance without extensive support all act as counterweights to the unrivaled firepower the Whale can bring to the field. The Whale does demand certain responses from enemy players who don't wish to feed it, but those are responses most any player can take regardless of their build, with a few notable exceptions. It's not something you need to specifically build to counter, and if it forces you to be a bit more cautious in your engagements? Well hell - people are supposed to be cautious around assault 'Mechs, ne?

[SaltBeef]

Making the clan XL engine size adjustable would help a lot with this slow behemoth! Sacrificing some of that 50 tons of weapon space for engine size agility would be well worth it. Absolutely!

Allow clans to upscale or downscale the Clan XL engine size installed.

[Impyrium]

Faster? FASTER?!

I finally grinded enough for a Dire Wolf yesterday. I didn't have enough afterwards for the equipment tweaks so I built a UAC5/UAC2 + 2cerLL + 4cerML build with the default weapons I had...

FIRST GAME. Seven kills, 1300 damage. I actually felt genuinely guilty for using it. Then I upgraded to guass... holy mother of firepower Batman. It's like nothing I--

You get the idea. That particular game we actually lost- I accounted for every kill. After that game I started getting lower games again, but it most certainly doesn't need a buff.

[CHH Badkarma]

I guess pgi missed the boat on max speed being 54 kph.

[Foxfire]

Nope. The Direwolf is too powerful for anything that is in its sight for it to have more maneuverability.