963 replies to this topic

[Mothykins]

Rhaegor, on 17 October 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

They could give hero mechs the general buffs that people are describing. Make the hero mechs more versatile due to their real money cost. I bet they would sell more of them as well if they did that. But, leave current mech quirks like they are, with specific role like bonuses.

Then the PAY TO WIN screaming starts.

[Joe Mallad]

Cavale, on 17 October 2014 - 01:11 PM, said:

I'm just mildly choked that Two of the Mechs I've actually paid for are pretty much getting F***ed. The 1V(P), by giving it a buff to a weapon that takes up 1/4 of the Mechs total Size and leaves it with 1.5 Tons when Armour and engine are maxed (Fear my two machineguns and 1000 Rounds. I:)

And the Jester, which now is getting nothing but LL Buffs becasue "OMG, IT HAS TWO JJs!" Despite it being gimped in maneuverability to compensate.

No. F*** that. I paid money for them, you can f***ing Bet i'm going to be pissed. I didn't pay for a midget ERLL Sniper or a LL boating piece of CRAP. I:

not arguing with you, but where are the 1V(P)s quirks posted at? Were they up and I missed it somewhere?

[Mothykins]

Yoseful Mallad, on 17 October 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

not arguing with you, but where are the 1V(P)s quirks posted at? Were they up and I missed it somewhere?

I regret that post, but deleting it doesn't make it go away, so here it stays.


They where discussed during townhall, and might, might have changed.

[Scratx]

Glythe, on 17 October 2014 - 01:39 PM, said:

The JJ/ECM bit is a bit extreme. So you're telling me a C4 only gets 3 buffs because it's a lame duck t4 with JJ? Oh right that makes SO much sense.

This I fully agree with. The capability of using ECM and/or JJ should already be accounted for in tiering it. Otherwise, what the hell is tiering actually accounting for?

A tier N is a tier N no matter whether it has JJs or ECM or not. It shouldn't be doubly penalized, which is what penalizing mechs for having JJs or ECM is actually doing.

[Joe Mallad]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I guess I just don't see where they are peeing in your cheerios.

You can't really make it all things to all people, or you pretty well obviate the whole point of the quirks, and leave things respectively in a similar place to where they are now.

Yeah, I get it. Some pet builds, mine included, are not benefiting (much). They also are not being hurt any. And in most cases, have viable alternative chassis or variants that CAN do said builds with bonuses.

So I guess I just don't see mechs getting bonuses for DOING WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO (for the most part, others are simply to make them competitive) really should be ruining anyone's day.

the big problem is PGI let this "you can design anything you want with any mech and or variant" go on for too long. And people got used to taking whatever they wanted and manipulating it to do what PGI initially intended it NOT to do. Now they (PGI) are trying to rectify that some with quirks that bring most mech back in line with what they were intended for, and most cant handle that. Not saying its the player's faults, as it really isnt. Yes PGI is doing some really good things NOW that in the end "look" like they will bring some much needed balance back to the game. But PGI really is the one at fault for allowing it to go on this long.

Scratx, on 17 October 2014 - 02:24 PM, said:

This I fully agree with. The capability of using ECM and/or JJ should already be accounted for in tiering it. Otherwise, what the hell is tiering actually accounting for?

A tier N is a tier N no matter whether it has JJs or ECM or not. It shouldn't be doubly penalized, which is what penalizing mechs for having JJs or ECM is actually doing.

this i can agree with too.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 17 October 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

I guess I just don't see where they are peeing in your cheerios.

You can't really make it all things to all people, or you pretty well obviate the whole point of the quirks, and leave things respectively in a similar place to where they are now.

Yeah, I get it. Some pet builds, mine included, are not benefiting (much). They also are not being hurt any. And in most cases, have viable alternative chassis or variants that CAN do said builds with bonuses.

So I guess I just don't see mechs getting bonuses for DOING WHAT THEY WERE DESIGNED TO DO (for the most part, others are simply to make them competitive) really should be ruining anyone's day.

TDR-5S: Tier 5 Skirmisher
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Large Laser Range +25%
Large Laser Cooldown +25%
Medium Laser Duration -25%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...379edf1bd1caeab – TDR-5S(P) “Thunder Hammer”

This is the closest I’ve got at the moment to a ‘Mech which is actually positively impacted by the proposed changes – to Piranha actually offering me cake, as it were. The Thunder Hammer as posted above, and despite being a T5 ‘Mech, is actually one of my strongest Inner Sphere chassis. For some reason even I don’t understand, the Thunder Hammer fits me like a glove. It’s one of my most consistent Inner Sphere ‘Mechs and a machine I can make dance.

If I were to switch it to something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b275d340433e51a, I could actually take complete advantage of its entire quirk set, something I can’t realistically do with any other ‘Mech I own for which quirks have been posted (Oxide exempted as it only ever had one worthwhile build in the first place anyways. Still don’t know why I bought that thing ).

This is still not doing what the Thunderbolt was designed to do. My Thunder Hammer is a second-line fire support ‘Mech and will be so regardless of whether it uses a chin-mounted ER-PPC or a chin-mounted large laser. And regardless, the bonuses as listed completely gut the far more common strong-left-fist Thunderbolts which rely on heavy ballistics in the left arm. Which, admittedly, any realistic solution is going to do, but still. Or, for that matter, completely ignore the fact that for my particular build, the I-ERLL is a much better choice than the I-LL.

What I want isn’t the dropping of this system – far from it, even in its current form this is a fantastic addition to the game – or a bunch of “+15% to ALL DA THINGZ” bonuses. What I was hoping for, expecting, and would still to some extent like to see is a moderate general perk, followed up with an additional quirk that modifies the base perk for a specific canonical weapon. For the Thunderbolt, perhaps something like this:

Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Energy range 10% (additional +15% to STD/ER Large Laser)
Energy cooldown 10% (additional +15% to STD/ER Large Laser)
Energy heat gen -10% (additional -15% to STD/ER Medium Laser, for that time fifteen years from now when the IS deploys I-ERML)
Laser duration -10% (additional -15% to STD/ER Medium laser)
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

Yes, this still de-emphasizes those machine gun hardpoints. There’s not much choice there, really – doesn’t make any sense to add quirks that enhance what’s supposed to be a set of afterthought anti-infantry weapons. But in this manner, you still get the strong boost to the Thunderbolt’s stock energy armament, emphasizing its given role and preferred loadout, without causing it to lose PPC fights to JagerMechs if its pilot decides he wants to slot that chin-mounted PPC instead of a large laser. And also he can use an extended-range laser if he likes without hating himself, and if he prefers to run with solely medium lasers alongside a ballistics punch, then he doesn’t entirely lose out on the Thud’s range and cooldown benefits for that big cannon.

I don’t know if this plan turned out to be too much for Piranha to do, and ended up overdoing the boosts on T5 ‘Mechs (which, honestly, seems like it’d be pretty difficult to do), but this is what I thought they were going to do, and I was all frickin’ for it, man! Emphasize the stock/competitive/common/whatever loadout, by all means. Put that free cake out there. But maybe everyone else could get a smaller piece of the cake, something that’d let them stay even half-competitive against The One Single Chosen Build Anointed From PGI On High, instead of getting a sign saying “NO CAKE FOR JOO” shoved in their faces?

[AdamBaines]

Oogalook, on 17 October 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

The idea with this post is to make enough noise to get PGI to reconsider their plan BEFORE it goes into place, only to be fixed a long way down the road. Please comment, if only to spout disagreement.

And here comes the doom and gloom crowd worried only about themselves......there is one in every game play thread in one way or the other.

[Rhaegor]

Cavale, on 17 October 2014 - 02:17 PM, said:

Then the PAY TO WIN screaming starts.

Well, people already complain about that.

[Michael Abt]

How many of you actually run the discussed mechs on a regular basis? Since i pretty much only run HBK's here is some of my data:

HBK-4G(F) - LBX10, 2MG, 3ML; 1036 matches, W/L 1.15, K/D 1.93
HBK-GI - AC20, 3ML; 401 matches, W/L 0.91, K/D 1.55

It is a comparison between "classic" AC20 and my alternative LBX10 loadout. Despite the general opinion that the LBX10 is "meh" and AC20 is "the way to go" to deal with clans my experience is different. The announced quirks for the 4G buff what i consider the weaker of my two builds, and that is the intention of introducing quirks in the first place.

If quirks bring back some old mechs onto the battlefield it will be a nice change. Maybe quirks will also teach some pilots to rethink their "T4/T5 mech = free kill" logic, or pay the price.

[Joe Mallad]

Cavale, on 17 October 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

I regret that post, but deleting it doesn't make it go away, so here it stays.


They where discussed during townhall, and might, might have changed.

wait so you was going off about a quirk on a weapon that is not stock for that variant "that you heard may happen" in the town hall meeting? I can understand why you went off, but why go off about it NOW when you dont even know if it will indeed happen? As of right now, the only quirks and mechs im going to talk about positively or negatively are those that Russ actually posts up quirks on. There is no reason to get yourself all worked up about your locust and its specific quirks, until Russ posts it up.

[DocBach]

Has it been clarified that a "large laser" buff is just to the standard large laser, or is it to any large type laser to include ER/Pulse models?

[Joe Mallad]

Michael Abt, on 17 October 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

How many of you actually run the discussed mechs on a regular basis? Since i pretty much only run HBK's here is some of my data:

HBK-4G(F) - LBX10, 2MG, 3ML; 1036 matches, W/L 1.15, K/D 1.93
HBK-GI - AC20, 3ML; 401 matches, W/L 0.91, K/D 1.55

It is a comparison between "classic" AC20 and my alternative LBX10 loadout. Despite the general opinion that the LBX10 is "meh" and AC20 is "the way to go" to deal with clans my experience is different. The announced quirks for the 4G buff what i consider the weaker of my two builds, and that is the intention of introducing quirks in the first place.

If quirks bring back some old mechs onto the battlefield it will be a nice change. Maybe quirks will also teach some pilots to rethink their "T4/T5 mech = free kill" logic, or pay the price.

YES YES THIS!!

[Prezimonto]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

TDR-5S: Tier 5 Skirmisher
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Large Laser Range +25%
Large Laser Cooldown +25%
Medium Laser Duration -25%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...379edf1bd1caeab – TDR-5S(P) “Thunder Hammer”

This is the closest I’ve got at the moment to a ‘Mech which is actually positively impacted by the proposed changes – to Piranha actually offering me cake, as it were. The Thunder Hammer as posted above, and despite being a T5 ‘Mech, is actually one of my strongest Inner Sphere chassis. For some reason even I don’t understand, the Thunder Hammer fits me like a glove. It’s one of my most consistent Inner Sphere ‘Mechs and a machine I can make dance.

If I were to switch it to something like this: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b275d340433e51a, I could actually take complete advantage of its entire quirk set, something I can’t realistically do with any other ‘Mech I own for which quirks have been posted (Oxide exempted as it only ever had one worthwhile build in the first place anyways. Still don’t know why I bought that thing ).

This is still not doing what the Thunderbolt was designed to do. My Thunder Hammer is a second-line fire support ‘Mech and will be so regardless of whether it uses a chin-mounted ER-PPC or a chin-mounted large laser. And regardless, the bonuses as listed completely gut the far more common strong-left-fist Thunderbolts which rely on heavy ballistics in the left arm. Which, admittedly, any realistic solution is going to do, but still. Or, for that matter, completely ignore the fact that for my particular build, the I-ERLL is a much better choice than the I-LL.

What I want isn’t the dropping of this system – far from it, even in its current form this is a fantastic addition to the game – or a bunch of “+15% to ALL DA THINGZ” bonuses. What I was hoping for, expecting, and would still to some extent like to see is a moderate general perk, followed up with an additional quirk that modifies the base perk for a specific canonical weapon. For the Thunderbolt, perhaps something like this:

Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Energy range 10% (additional +15% to STD/ER Large Laser)
Energy cooldown 10% (additional +15% to STD/ER Large Laser)
Energy heat gen -10% (additional -15% to STD/ER Medium Laser, for that time fifteen years from now when the IS deploys I-ERML)
Laser duration -10% (additional -15% to STD/ER Medium laser)
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

Yes, this still de-emphasizes those machine gun hardpoints. There’s not much choice there, really – doesn’t make any sense to add quirks that enhance what’s supposed to be a set of afterthought anti-infantry weapons. But in this manner, you still get the strong boost to the Thunderbolt’s stock energy armament, emphasizing its given role and preferred loadout, without causing it to lose PPC fights to JagerMechs if its pilot decides he wants to slot that chin-mounted PPC instead of a large laser. And also he can use an extended-range laser if he likes without hating himself, and if he prefers to run with solely medium lasers alongside a ballistics punch, then he doesn’t entirely lose out on the Thud’s range and cooldown benefits for that big cannon.

I don’t know if this plan turned out to be too much for Piranha to do, and ended up overdoing the boosts on T5 ‘Mechs (which, honestly, seems like it’d be pretty difficult to do), but this is what I thought they were going to do, and I was all frickin’ for it, man! Emphasize the stock/competitive/common/whatever loadout, by all means. Put that free cake out there. But maybe everyone else could get a smaller piece of the cake, something that’d let them stay even half-competitive against The One Single Chosen Build Anointed From PGI On High, instead of getting a sign saying “NO CAKE FOR JOO” shoved in their faces?

That's not entirely unreasonable.

I'd probably prefer to see a slightly more limited "general" perk set, but in principle I don't hate splitting the total bonuses between general and specific.

What it does limit without changing the over all numbers is the ability to stack general with specific buffs for some truly epic specialization buffs. Though I can't even remember if they've taken advantage of that in anything posted yet.

[Joe Mallad]

DocBach, on 17 October 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

Has it been clarified that a "large laser" buff is just to the standard large laser, or is it to any large type laser to include ER/Pulse models?

its been clarified. If it says "energy" than its a quirk for ALL energy based weapons. If it actually says PPC, LL, ERLL, ERPL and so on, its a quirk for that specific type of laser.

also, go back to the mechs and quirks that Russ has posted up. Youll see there what I mean and how he has it laid out.

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 17 October 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[Flak Kannon]

This is going to be amazing.

I have grinded the IS mechs ever since the first months of this game. At 118/155 Inner Sphere owned.

I haven't bought a single clan mech.

It will be so neat to actually see my Dragons be better. I own them all. It will be so cool to see my Hunchback do better... that I have every Hunchie fully mastered, and still do really well with them. With the quirks/perks...matched with the weapon modules and Mastered Chassis, LOOK OUT! What was a good mech, will be really good...

I have been piloting my Trebs this last couple week, and have done really well with them... I am excited to see how they are quirked out...


The 3 Awesomes I have have been pretty dam useful, guess its time to buy the other 4 and go to town with PPC's, something Ive been really wanting to do alot recently, but slowed PPC speed and ghost heat.. but now... Watch out!


Pilot skill plays THE major roll in the Mechs usefulness in a battle. Of all the tier 5 mechs i own, the only chassis I have under 1.0 K/DR in are 3 of 5 of my Dragons.

So, add a really good pilot to a souped up, quirked up, IS mech, .... well..... makes me fear for the Clan pilots lives...

Edited by Flak Kannon, 17 October 2014 - 02:58 PM.

[Mothykins]

Yoseful Mallad, on 17 October 2014 - 02:32 PM, said:

wait so you was going off about a quirk on a weapon that is not stock for that variant "that you heard may happen" in the town hall meeting? I can understand why you went off, but why go off about it NOW when you dont even know if it will indeed happen? As of right now, the only quirks and mechs im going to talk about positively or negatively are those that Russ actually posts up quirks on. There is no reason to get yourself all worked up about your locust and its specific quirks, until Russ posts it up.

Because at that point, it was a spoiler, and mentioned that while the numbers weren't absolute, the list of what was being buffed most likely was.

As for the Jester, It's because it's not only t3 because it Has JJs, it also suffers from non-quirk penalties to its maneuverability to have earned those JJs and not be classified as a Pay 2 Win 'Mech. So it's getting double whammied.

[Tynan]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

TDR-5S: Tier 5 Skirmisher
Additional Structure (LT&RT) +10
Large Laser Range +25%
Large Laser Cooldown +25%
Medium Laser Duration -25%
Medium Laser Heat Gen -25%
Missile Weapon Cooldown +12%

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...379edf1bd1caeab – TDR-5S(P) “Thunder Hammer”

This is the closest I’ve got at the moment to a ‘Mech which is actually positively impacted by the proposed changes – to Piranha actually offering me cake, as it were. <Snip, just to save forum space>

I don't entirely disagree with this, and there's definitely variation in quality among the proposed quirks. It's part of why I brought up the HBK-4G as, what I thought, anyway, a stellar example--a specific weapon buff for one build, but a general energy buff as an augment.

I think more general bonuses can be good but risks flattening out the uniqueness some of these quirks are giving to otherwise bland variants. Basically, I like the specificity but completely get where you're coming from.

Cavale, on 17 October 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Because at that point, it was a spoiler, and mentioned that while the numbers weren't absolute, the list of what was being buffed most likely was.

As for the Jester, It's because it's not only t3 because it Has JJs, it also suffers from non-quirk penalties to its maneuverability to have earned those JJs and not be classified as a Pay 2 Win 'Mech. So it's getting double whammied.

Did you get an answer from Russ as the whether the movement penalties were considered quirks? Because yeah, it should be dropped a tier or have those removed.

[Joe Mallad]

Cavale, on 17 October 2014 - 02:39 PM, said:

Because at that point, it was a spoiler, and mentioned that while the numbers weren't absolute, the list of what was being buffed most likely was.

As for the Jester, It's because it's not only t3 because it Has JJs, it also suffers from non-quirk penalties to its maneuverability to have earned those JJs and not be classified as a Pay 2 Win 'Mech. So it's getting double whammied.

but lets remember that Russ said this is just the "first quirk pass" there really is no need to get this worked up when stuff will probably still change in a second and maybe even third pass, as we go forward. Like they say, just because it looks good on paper... and in this case with the Jester (which I own too), might look bad on paper. We just wont really know until we get to test it together. I love my Jester and I feel you, but its not worth getting upset about.

[Mothykins]

Tynan, on 17 October 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Did you get an answer from Russ as the whether the movement penalties were considered quirks? Because yeah, it should be dropped a tier or have those removed.

Not yet, no.

[bobF]

The op is sadly correct. This cripples customization somewhat and only adds token "diversity" by making some mechs (likely temporarily) useful on the battlefield. Buffs and rebuffs drive player behavior like commission drives salespeople. Nobody gimps their build by picking nonbuffed weapons. This happens in every PvP game. Taking away viable options from players always leaves a bad taste.

Role warfare evolves from units having different specialties, working together to achieve a larger goal than kill count, even if its just capping a point, defusing a bomb, or escorting a VIP. Larger maps, actual objectives, and real differentiation between mechs would see an organic growth of real roles. This solution simply gives more flavors of mechs on the field, now with pigeon holed specs, to play more deathmatch. Giving weapon bonuses doesn't create roles, nor will seeing slightly less than garbage mechs being played again change the gameplay in any significant way.

Some chumps will open their wallets now, however, which was likely the point of the exercise.