963 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

And frankly, people dont even all adhere to the meta.

For a portion of player base, they wont notice a change.
For a portion of the player base, they wont adapt to the change.
For a portion of the player base, theyll adhere to the change.
For a portion of the player base, theyll mix/max the quirks and make new top metas
For a portion of the player base, theyll whine and say their customization was killed.

[Mercules]

Oogalook, on 17 October 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

You misinterpret my point. Though the awesome, in this example, was basically non-viable before the quirk pass and will be good again after, it can only be that good on the condition that the pilot only use the PPC spam build suggested by the quirks. The loss of diversity is within the variant: The pilot buys the 'mech, and then can do nothing reasonably with it other than the no doubt powerful PPC build, or else he can continue to suffer the same difficulties he did before the quirk pass by employing laser vomit and passing up the benefits of the weapon buffs.

Without Quirks = 0 viable builds (per your own statement above)
With Quirks = at least one viable build

So we go from not seeing Awesomes to seeing Awesomes using PPCs and being a little scary with them. To the majority of us that is a positive change in diversity... we SEE AWESOMES BEING USED.

We go from 5 viable mechs to maybe 15+? DIVERSITY

Now, in addition to that those of us coming from a Battletech background who are playing this game ONLY because it is a Mechwarrior/Battletech game and would have walked away a year or more ago if it wasn't for that and have almost walked away several times since as it became less about MW/BT....

We get to see some iconic mechs able to use loadouts closer to their iconic roles/loadouts and actually be viable. This is a Win/Win for us. Especially if it makes someone who says, "Forget about BT/MW" twitch and fidget in irritation.

[JozefK]

Lukoi Banacek, on 17 October 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

I think some folks are forgetting the overall balance equation in their arguments against these quirks.

In overall game balance, it is not about an AWS fighting an AWS or hunchie vs hunchie. Thats a false premise to start from.

If the best JM6 option from a game play balance perspective is the twin AC20 or Gauss build (both highly lethal if played well) and the quirks those mechs receive do not enhance the 20 or the Gauss....or they any less viable now? Not likely....but some other previously suboptimal build now moves up to a closer position of parity against the meta builds. Thats better for the state of the game.

Not really.

Let's do it again.

It will not make your configuration worse on the absolute scale. But since other mech configurations which follow quirks optimisatio WILL improve, it means that overall mechs appearing on the battlefield will perform better. So your mech configuration (unless quirk-compatible) WILL lose value.

[Alek Ituin]

KraftySOT, on 17 October 2014 - 07:28 AM, said:

The Wolverine for example has zero competitive builds.

Though I dont know what the Quirks are, I know the Quirks will make at least one build on the Wolfie, competitive.

Thats diversity. Thats why PGI asked "top men" to help them with the Tiering and Quirks.

Spoiler

Edited by Alek Ituin, 17 October 2014 - 07:38 AM.

[KraftySOT]

And yeah tier 1 and 2 mechs are getting quirks too. Every IS mech gets a Quirk or two.

So chances are your top meta builds, just got that much better.

Who wants to bet theres a blanket ballistics buff on my Banshee? And some sort of blanket Energy Weapons buff?

Mastered, and with modules...my Metabuild just got 3-15% better at a minimum because of Quirks.

What do you think the DDC is going to get? The Jager? The BattleMaster LRM boat?

[UnsafePilot]

This whole argument is one of perspective. The existence of something that you're not getting doesn't inherently make what you are getting any worse. It just means that there are a few more better things out there; Unless you were min/maxing meta it was already the case that there were better builds on the field.

Edited by UnsafePilot, 17 October 2014 - 07:49 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

We go from 5 viable mechs to maybe 15+? DIVERSITY

~5 to ~8

But its still an improvement. But I doubt 15 variants will suddenly become Meta. I mean who knows thatd be great.

But I expect after the min/maxers are done with it, we'll get a net 3 "mechs" that are now meta, and maybe a variant or two here or there being really, really good.

And being that CW is coming and its going to be IS vs Clan, and the 3 of the 5 meta-mechs are clan....

We need more IS meta-mechs.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Josef the multiple variants requirement has been in since closed beta. So again your conspiracy theory is based on nothing here.

These quirks provide zero added incentive to buy more mechs (cbillable) or mechbays (MC) than the hard point restrictions and experience mechanics dont already provide. If I want to play a build my existing AWS cannot provide but another can, its due to hardpoint differences not quirks.

Your cries of "cash grab" are based on nothing PGI isnt already doing. Its nothing new. If you want to complain that PGI is cashgrabby, I wouldnt argue with you...but these quirks dont add to that.

[KraftySOT]

Lets say youre the fastest racer in Nascar. You can go 220mph, and everyone else goes 180.

So Nascar invents some fuel that gets more HP, and puts it in all the other cars but yours. Thier cars now go 210mph, and yours goes 220mph.

If you say youre car got worse in this scenario, youre a freaking idiot.

Edited by KraftySOT, 17 October 2014 - 07:42 AM.

[Alek Ituin]

KraftySOT, on 17 October 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Lets say youre the fastest race in Nascar. You can go 220mph, and everyone else goes 180.

So Nascar invents some fuel that gets more HP, and puts it in all the other cars but yours. Thier cars now go 210mph, and yours goes 220mph.

If you say youre car got worse in this scenario, youre a freaking idiot.

Those other cars still have the option of going 180mph too, as long as the driver feels like it.

[KraftySOT]

Alek Ituin, on 17 October 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Spoiler

Cant tell you. Its under NDA. Only that "Top men" were questioned at length.

Alek Ituin, on 17 October 2014 - 07:42 AM, said:

Those other cars still have the option of going 180mph too, as long as the driver feels like it.

Exactly.

And hey theres some guys sitting around going 160mph, who are all pissed off because now all the people they competed with at 180 who beat them, are still going to beat them, just now at 210mph, and they refuse to get out of the Jalopey because "customization"

[salkeee]

Those T4 and T5 quirks feel very strong not sure how will it work balance wise.

And than balistics geting same buffs as energy lasers is meh balistics alredy rule this game why push that advantage even more.


EDIT:

It would be better I think if every weapon would get flat amount buff lets say -0.1 sec cooldown per tier for AC 10 would make more sense and this way U can controll all weappons with pure numbers, but with this way that we see coming well AC20 -25% cooldow and AC10 -25% cooldown is not same buff I consider AC20 much better weapon worthy of its tonage than AC10 and in this case AC20 is geting biger buff than AC10 becouze well percentages favor biger numbers.


All in all a change alone may bring goodnes in this game.

Edited by salkeee, 17 October 2014 - 07:55 AM.

[Belorion]

Awesome LL build will also be more viable...

[KraftySOT]

Belorion, on 17 October 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Awesome LL build will also be more viable...

Still wont be meta. But if you wanted to run a crappy build before, your crappy build got slightly better.

[Lukoi Banacek]

JozefK, on 17 October 2014 - 07:37 AM, said:

Not really.

Let's do it again.

It will not make your configuration worse on the absolute scale. But since other mech configurations which follow quirks optimisatio WILL improve, it means that overall mechs appearing on the battlefield will perform better. So your mech configuration (unless quirk-compatible) WILL lose value.

If the number one mech in the given class remains number one which it will...these quirks dont negate those meta builds but the 2-10th mech builds get closer to parity with it based on their use or dismissal of quirks that remains a good thing and encourages people to play them hence more diversity.

[Alek Ituin]

salkeee, on 17 October 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Those T4 and T5 quirks feel very strong not sure how will it work balance wise.

And than balistics geting same buffs as energy lasers is meh balistics alredy rule this game why push that advantage even more.

That's the entire point.

T5 Mechs are horrible, horrible Mechs that nobody in their right mind would use over a T4 or even a T3 Mech. Ideally, everybody would run a T1 Mech, but that would become a cheese fest VERY fast. On the other hand, an ideal game would have no T2 or below Mechs, only T1's.

Quirks make inherently terribad chassis more competitive with higher tier Mechs, which are inherently better chassis.

[JozefK]

KraftySOT, on 17 October 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

No it wont, thats insane.

30 point alphas at 1200m is still 30 point alphas at 1200m. Unless the quirk is buffing a gauss or LRM on another mech, the increase in ability of all the mechs compared to the Dual Gauss, DOESNT MATTER.

All the AC20 and medium laser and torso twist buffs in the world, dont change the fact that the Jagerbomb is popping people across the map. It doesnt change the Timberwolf able to take you down in 6 seconds. My Wubshee can still take you down instantly.

Nothing changes for the top meta builds. The reason theyre top, is because theyre....the top.

If youre in 1st place. And someone takes 10th place, and puts him in 3rd place.

Youre still in ******* 1st place dude.

It's economy stuff. Devalvation of value.

Let's imagine the car race where every car has 500HP.

So you also have a car with 500HP.

And then some guys go to mechanic and boost their engines to 600HP.

Your car still has 500HP as before. But is it as good for the race as before?

NO. It will most likely perform WORSE then those 600HP cars.

It means that although you have the same car as before and with the same engine, value of your car has dropped. It's not as good as it was before. You will most likely need to go to that mechanic and boost your engine also. To to that you will need to PAY.

TO SUMMARISE:
- your car was as competitive as any other before
- you didn't do anything with your car but because others did, you car is not competitive any more
- to become competitive once again, you must pay

So now let's replace the word "car" with a word "mech":
- your mech was as competitive as any other before
- you didn't do anything with your mech but because others did, you mech is not competitive any more
- to become competitive once again, you must pay

Congratulations and thank you!

[KraftySOT]

JozefK, on 17 October 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

It's economy stuff. Devalvation of value.

Let's imagine the car race where every car has 500HP.

So you also have a car with 500HP.

And then some guys go to mechanic and boost their engines to 600HP.

Your car still has 500HP as before. But is it as good for the race as before?

NO. It will most likely perform WORSE then those 600HP cars.

It means that although you have the same car as before and with the same engine, value of your car has dropped. It's not as good as it was before. You will most likely need to go to that mechanic and boost your engine also. To to that you will need to PAY.

TO SUMMARISE:
- your car was as competitive as any other before
- you didn't do anything with your car but because others did, you car is not competitive any more
- to become competitive once again, you must pay

So now let's replace the word "car" with a word "mech":
- your mech was as competitive as any other before
- you didn't do anything with your mech but because others did, you mech is not competitive any more
- to become competitive once again, you must pay

Congratulations and thank you!

This is based on the premise that all mechs are equal now. That premise is wrong. So I didnt bother reading past that.

No, its like your race car (if you have a meta build) going 220mph, and EVERY other race car, going 180mph or slower.

So the racing officials, come up with this special sauce that gives all the cars but your car, a boost to Horse Power. So now their cars can go 210mph.

Your car still goes 220mph. And if you were one of the other races, your car just got better.

[Lily from animove]

No, looks you have that laserbuild being lets say 20% better than the random build.
Now you get quirks imporving that random build by also 20%.

both builds are now equal. you can choose bith and be as same good.

Sure loadouts get killed if the quirks would give this now 40% buff. But this is part of balance to choose them right.

[UnsafePilot]

JozefK, on 17 October 2014 - 07:49 AM, said:

So now let's replace the word "car" with a word "mech":
- your mech was as competitive as any other before
- you didn't do anything with your mech but because others did, you mech is not competitive any more
- to become competitive once again, you must pay

Congratulations and thank you!

If your mech was competitive before it will still be competitive after. The heavy handed quirks are being applied to mech's that aren't currently competitive. Nothing is being taken away from the mechs/variants that were already competitive..

Edited by UnsafePilot, 17 October 2014 - 07:58 AM.