963 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 20 October 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Again, your 6xCMPL Timber Wolf isn't suddenly doing less damage or generating more heat because Commandos get quirks.

Saying that buffing mechs that virtually never get played is a nerf to the current meta is ridiculous.

He isn't saying it is a nerf to the meta, but it is a nerf to mechs that don't benefit from the quirks.

To understand this all you have to do is look at Magic The Gathering which has a similar issue. Some of the old cards that are considered good or decent are no longer good because the newest pack increased the average power level. Meaning while those older cards are unchanged, the environment has indeed changed which affects how those older cards are viewed in terms of effectiveness.

[KraftySOT]

Theres tons of free lunches.

Stand under orange tree...wait for orange to fall...eat.

Slightly more complicated when the orange tree is owned, but I do attest you can grab some seeds, grow an orange tree, which seems to grow rather naturally and has for thousands of years. Then eat the goddamn oranges. All without monetary systems, or serious environmental impact.

Your tree may be sucking up carbon and sunlight...but I think we can all agree that we arent paying for that.

[Sjorpha]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 20 October 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Again, your 6xCMPL Timber Wolf isn't suddenly doing less damage or generating more heat because Commandos get quirks.

Saying that buffing mechs that virtually never get played is a nerf to the current meta is ridiculous.

The TW becomes relatively weaker because of commando quirks, but as you say this effect is very small since commandos are not commonly played. It will be quite noticable in a TW vs Commando situation though.

The effect of the quirk pass as a whole though, with buffs and nerf rollbacks on even the best IS mechs, that is going to represent a noticable nerf to the TW and other clan mechs. "Isn't ... doing less damage" etc isn't meaningful in this discussion because you don't measure inflation using the currency being inflated, for obvious reasons. (Imagine measuring the worth of a dollar in dollars and you immediately see this fallacy.)

Edited by Sjorpha, 20 October 2014 - 03:02 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Solahma, on 20 October 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Sure, the loose customization has been hurt quite a bit (which was easy to do in TT).

I must say this part of your statement is actually not accurate.

No mech customization is hurt. The large portion of players already run Top Tier Mechs. Bottom tier mechs get no weaker, and in general, even if all the buffs are not taken advantage of, are seeing a net improvement. Even those being fully quirked will not magically become Tier 1. But some Pilots of Tier 1-3 mechs may find the specifics of certain tier 4 and 5 mechs suit their playstyle. This would actually benefit everyone as less higher tier mechs, meet a broader spectrum of more effective (to varying degrees) lower tier mechs.

Literally the only person "not winning" is the one who is simply unhappy because his pet build is not getting the maximum buff benefit from the quirks.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

WM Quicksilver, on 20 October 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

He isn't saying it is a nerf to the meta, but it is a nerf to mechs that don't benefit from the quirks.

Except it's not a nerf to the mechs not benefiting from quirks. It is only that some people are perceiving it as a nerf.

If a mech doesn't get quirks, then quite literally nothing is changing for that mech. It will be exactly as effective then as it is right now.

Other mechs (mechs that are so 'bad' they're virtually never used) getting 'buffed' is in no way a nerf to the mechs not getting quirks.

[Apnu]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 02:45 PM, said:

Firstly, most of the guys PGI listens to? Are Comp Gamers, most of whom don't give a fig about TT.


Secondly? The whole thing was supposedly started by a bunch of TT fanatics. Who made the pledge to deliver the closest to TT Mechwarrior title ever.

So you came to the wrong game if that is your goal.


Ugh. Had a guy in my gaming group who was the Doritos Dust guy.

I spend 1000s of dollars and hundreds of hours painting my regiment and he touches them with his nasty dorito fingers?

Oh. It was on. One of only 3-4 times there was a literal buttwhupping at one of our RPG nights.

Also, lets not forget that PGI originally billed the game as being as close to TT as possible and then advertised it to us TT guys for early start up dollars. Later they turned to the CoD and comp crowd and started changing things.

I'm ok with this, tho I'm a beardy TT guy (no Doritos or Mountain Dew, that stuff is gross). We've kept this game going for decades.

We deserve to have a voice and respected points of view around here. As does the CoD players and the comp. types.

Edited by Apnu, 20 October 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

WM Quicksilver, on 20 October 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

He isn't saying it is a nerf to the meta, but it is a nerf to mechs that don't benefit from the quirks.

To understand this all you have to do is look at Magic The Gathering which has a similar issue. Some of the old cards that are considered good or decent are no longer good because the newest pack increased the average power level. Meaning while those older cards are unchanged, the environment has indeed changed which affects how those older cards are viewed in terms of effectiveness.

The average power level is already very top heavy in MWO, hence the 12-1 curbstompings being the norm. This will bring the bottom up slightly. But if your build was uber bad in the first place, then yes, it wills till probably be uber bad. But simply by numbers, more players will have to leave upper tier mechs to use these heavily quirked ones, and even with the ir quirks, they are chock full of the weaknesses that made them low tier to begin with.

Just like if you built a weak, or 1 trick pony deck in MtG, you were going to suck, regardless the Meta.

[1453 R]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 20 October 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

By looking at it in absolute terms.

That's what I was trying to get at with an earlier posts about kids having money. If you have $10 and I have $5, and someone gives me an additional $3, I just got a 'buff' but your money wasn't 'nerfed' - you still have $10, and it is worth the same as it always has been.

And if you have two dollars, but you put time and research and effort into finding some really great deals so that your two dollars manages to go as far as possible, to the point where your two dollars goes as far as a lot of guys' five dollars, you're also great - until someone gives all the two-dollar guys six additional bucks, provided they spend it in ONE way, at ONE place, in ONE particular manner.

Everybody who does that now has eight bucks as well as detailed instructions on how to get to eight bucks, while your best efforts, all that work and sweat, that once left you proud as hell to make two dollars act like five dollars still leaves you well behind the curve, no matter what you do.

Unless, of course, you jump on the Six-Dollar Plan, pitch everything you ever knew/liked about your given deals, and fall into line like a good little cog.

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

Hmmmm.

Ya don't think ridiculous posts like this one:


Might not have helped steer it away from that?

Hard to have calm and collected debate/argument/Discussion when you start throwing out such melodramatic nonsense. Yes, not a nice way to describe it, but I am hard pressed to find a better way in this instance.

Which by the way, you might notice I answered, rather reasonably as to why I believe you are overreacting. Although apparently, either you have chosen to ignore my posts, or can't argue with the rationale?

Yeah, all right. I'll apologize for the tone of that post, but I'm immensely frustrated with this entire endeavor because people are arguing from the perspective of Spike (who doesn't care about this system because he wouldn't be caught dead outside a T1 chassis anyways) or Timmy (who doesn't care about this system because he doesn't care about his performance anyways). This whole thing is a gigantic slap in the face for Johnny, that guy whose greatest joy in the game is finding the a way to spend two bucks in such a way as to compete with people who spent five bucks instead.

We can't do that anymore, not with the quirk system as described in place. Or rather, Piranha already did it for us and left us nothing to do. That sucks, dude. It really, seriously super-nasty-bad sucks, if for a smaller percentage of players than the TT fanbase or the ultracomp crowd.

[KraftySOT]

Also free is relative.

If you work insanely hard for a dollar...and give that dollar to me for free. Its still a free dollar. Just because you worked for it, doesnt make it any less free for me. It just wasnt free for you.

If PGI gives away a free mech, despite the labor put into it, its still free.

If PGI buffs mechs through a quirk system, based on tiers, the tier will remain the same, however the disparity between the most powerful, and the least, will shrink.

How you choose to view this shrinkage is a personal prerogative. Wether the entire scale is "pulled" towards the bottom end, or "pulled" to the top end, or "pulled" towards the center, its all exactly the same. Its just that words are sometimes insufficient when it comes to completely articulating an idea.

People that think something is getting a defacto "nerf" because the DISPARITY between whatever it is theyre focused on, and whatever is less powerful than it, are simply CHOOSING to think that way. Hence why theyre dense and cant be argued with. Theres no reasoning with someone who is simply arguing semantics.

When in fact the day after quirks, there will still be tier 1, through 5 mechs. Perhaps a few variants will shift around, but there wll still be the best, to the worst.

However the disparity between them shouldnt be as bad. What people are thinking is that im in tier 3, and im...twice as good as tier 4...four times as good as tier 5. Well if tier 5 is buffed to being twice as good, then im only a half time better than 4, and twice as good as 5...IVE BEEN NERFED.

This isnt true...even if you dont take a loadout that is buffed on your chassis. The fact that the higher tier mechs got less quirks, drags them down. The entire scale is dragged "together" in a bandwidth sense, not in a linear sense.

But this is clearly to complex for people to understand.

Edited by KraftySOT, 20 October 2014 - 03:05 PM.

[UnsafePilot]

WM Quicksilver, on 20 October 2014 - 02:55 PM, said:

To understand this all you have to do is look at Magic The Gathering which has a similar issue. Some of the old cards that are considered good or decent are no longer good because the newest pack increased the average power level. Meaning while those older cards are unchanged, the environment has indeed changed which affects how those older cards are viewed in terms of effectiveness.

This is less like new cards being released and more like rule changes to add a few extra points to the weakest cards that already existed.

[Bishop Steiner]

Sjorpha, on 20 October 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

The TW becomes relatively weaker because of commando quirks, but as you say this effect is very small since commandos are not commonly played. It will be quite noticable in a TW vs Commando situation though.

The effect of the quirk pass as a whole though, with buffs and nerf rollbacks on even the best IS mechs, that is going to represent a noticable nerf to the TW and other clan mechs. "Isn't ... doing less damage" etc isn't meaningful in this discussion because you don't measure inflation using the currency being inflated, for obvious reasons. (Imagine measuring the worth of a dollar in dollars and you immediately see this fallacy.)

by your reasoning any buff was a bad thing for the game, including all the ones previous, as it made something comparatively stronger to something else.

And I am sure the TW pilots all over the game are staying up at nights worried about their new Commando overlords.ç

Good god. It's being done BECAUSE there is a power gap that needs closing.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 02:53 PM, said:

actually, I was proving that in this instance, your allusion is largely inaccurate.

Because the game is so top heavy, buffs across the bottom can only be a benefit.

I don't think you proved anything, or maybe I just didn't understand your analysis/evidence.

I agree that relative nerfs to the top tier, and relative buffs to the bottom tier, which is what all balancing is about, is only a benefit to the game. I never argued against that.

[Rhaegor]

And be done it will. There is ample support.

[UnsafePilot]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

We can't do that anymore, not with the quirk system as described in place. Or rather, Piranha already did it for us and left us nothing to do. That sucks, dude. It really, seriously super-nasty-bad sucks, if for a smaller percentage of players than the TT fanbase or the ultracomp crowd.

Why can't Johnny still have fun figuring out the best non-quirked builds? Isn't that basically what he's been doing already with figuring out the 'best' builds for sub-par mechs?

[Kodyn]

Krafty, i was the one guy i knew in my nerdy crowd that smoked, had tats, piercings, a real job, car, etc lol. Won't catch me near a PBR, nor far from weed. So yeah, it may have been the specific crowd, but I see the same kinds of attitudes on these forums all the time.

I do fully understand that this game is base of a long-standing TT game and it's lore, don't assume I'm completely clueless. I also know that if it wants to survive, be a healthy and fun game and have a bit of a lifespan, it cannot focus and pigeonhole itself that much. There simply isn't enough money in it...which is why the game does have its FPS/Twitch side. Now I'm no CoD guy, but I really enjoy the combination of FPS and actual tactics and strategy, having a mech built for your specific needs, etc. I think those are the cornerstones of this game that keep people coming back, besides just the lore guys who will play anything BT.

All I'm saying is that I feel this will be a healthier game if regardless of what they billed it as, and what it was meant to be, they stick to the parts of the game that will draw new players and keep current ones around, rather than trying to get even more technically close to an already none-too popular genre.(which has clearly hurt this game in the past)

I'm new to the genre myself, and the lore, but find it highly interesting, I just don't want to see it gimp gameplay, because they're trying to follow it so closely it just becomes a graphically prettier Megamek. I'd probably be even more interested in the lore if so many of the lore-hounds on here weren't some of the least interesting people to see type. but I guess I shouldn't judge a whole genre based on it's most annoying fans.(Not lumping you into this Bishop, referring to some other old-heads)

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 20 October 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

And if you have two dollars, but you put time and research and effort into finding some really great deals so that your two dollars manages to go as far as possible, to the point where your two dollars goes as far as a lot of guys' five dollars, you're also great - until someone gives all the two-dollar guys six additional bucks, provided they spend it in ONE way, at ONE place, in ONE particular manner.

Everybody who does that now has eight bucks as well as detailed instructions on how to get to eight bucks, while your best efforts, all that work and sweat, that once left you proud as hell to make two dollars act like five dollars still leaves you well behind the curve, no matter what you do.

Unless, of course, you jump on the Six-Dollar Plan, pitch everything you ever knew/liked about your given deals, and fall into line like a good little cog.



Yeah, all right. I'll apologize for the tone of that post, but I'm immensely frustrated with this entire endeavor because people are arguing from the perspective of Spike (who doesn't care about this system because he wouldn't be caught dead outside a T1 chassis anyways) or Timmy (who doesn't care about this system because he doesn't care about his performance anyways). This whole thing is a gigantic slap in the face for Johnny, that guy whose greatest joy in the game is finding the a way to spend two bucks in such a way as to compete with people who spent five bucks instead.

We can't do that anymore, not with the quirk system as described in place. Or rather, Piranha already did it for us and left us nothing to do. That sucks, dude. It really, seriously super-nasty-bad sucks, if for a smaller percentage of players than the TT fanbase or the ultracomp crowd.

Look while I get your frustration, I have repeatedly demonstrated how that is NOT the case. Even in non maximized Quirk mechs you are seeing Net Improvements. Quirky Tier 4 and 5 mechs will STILL be the long term minority to Tier 1 and 2 mechs. And non Maximized 4 and 5s, will still be facing primarily 1 and 2s, which are essentially the same exact mechs. But you might encounter some 1-3s replaced by quirked 4 and 5s. I think that still is a net gain for everyone except maybe the 1 and 2s.

[ShinobiHunter]

Sjorpha, on 20 October 2014 - 02:58 PM, said:

The TW becomes relatively weaker because of commando quirks, but as you say this effect is very small since commandos are not commonly played. It will be quite noticable in a TW vs Commando situation though.

The effect of the quirk pass as a whole though, with buffs and nerf rollbacks on even the best IS mechs, that is going to represent a noticable nerf to the TW and other clan mechs. "Isn't ... doing less damage" etc isn't meaningful in this discussion because you don't measure inflation using the currency being inflated, for obvious reasons. (Imagine measuring the worth of a dollar in dollars and you immediately see this fallacy.)

I fully understand your point here, but at this moment most here seem to be in agreement about the quirks being necessary, so perhaps we could drop this argument and move on with the main topic.

[Sjorpha]

Bishop Steiner, on 20 October 2014 - 03:03 PM, said:

by your reasoning any buff was a bad thing for the game, including all the ones previous, as it made something comparatively stronger to something else.

And I am sure the TW pilots all over the game are staying up at nights worried about their new Commando overlords.ç

Good god. It's being done BECAUSE there is a power gap that needs closing.

Where did I state that buffs are bad for the game? You don't seem to understand me at all here. It is excellent that buffs and nerfs are implemented as needed to balance the game, all I'm saying is that buffs and nerfs are in principle not different. or rather, the difference is in the focus and visibility of the change. Viewed as a specific buff a change is visible because the focused change looks bigger, the same change viewed (or implemented) as a spread out nerf to evwerything else is much harder to see, but there is no real difference.

That's all I'm saying, I don't understand the controversy.

Power creep is the positive balance between buffs and nerfs, if you buff more than you nerf there is power creep. To avoid power creep you must nerf at least as much as you buff on average. Simple as that.

I am all for the quirk pass, but there is no doubt that it is a perfect example of power creep. The clans came and upped the power norm of the game, now the IS is buffed to compete. The very definition of power creep.

EDIT: I just saw that you said "power gap" and not "power creep", appologies. I'll leave that point anyways in case someone wants to answer it.

Edited by Sjorpha, 20 October 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

ShinobiHunter, on 20 October 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

I fully understand your point here, but at this moment most here seem to be in agreement about the quirks being necessary, so perhaps we could drop this argument and move on with the main topic.

Forget that, the new mech pack was announced: Panther, ENFORCER, Grasshopper, ZEUS.

I WANT MAH ZEUS!

. . .

I wonder what the quirks will be?

[Kodyn]

Here's a question, has anyone seen Russ's supposed new post about the quirks today? I saw the new IS mech pack one, and he said he'd be announcing something about the quirks...but can't seem to find it..and it's well after 4PDT.