388 replies to this topic

[Mott]

o0Marduk0o, on 21 October 2014 - 10:12 PM, said:

Concerning a c-bill nerf. People finally get the c-bills according to what they do in a match. You no longer get high rewards for just tagging everyone with an er large laser, which is basically without any effort.
Losing without doing good gives very little rewards. But do you guys want rewards for just joining the match?! Play good and you get more than before.

Exactly. I'll be the first to admit that my secondary or tertiary goal in each and every non-lobby drop since forever has been to tag 8-12 enemies with at least one glancing laser shot to rack up the easy assist cbills. I don't go seeking the shots, i flash them out with single ML shots as my primary brawling weapons are cooling and i'm torso twisting in my primary engagement.

I'm NOT going to stop doing that now because 12 assists still nets me an easy 30,000 cbills (nearly covering my 2 consumables), and it's still some damage and distraction provided to help my team. However, now i get rewards for my stylistic game play and have tons more options to tweak my own game.

Essentially, for those who can get over the pout... this breathes a lot of fresh air into the game and gives you a chance to really play around with your gameplay to find some fun styles for you and your fav mechs.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

Carthoo, on 22 October 2014 - 03:21 AM, said:

Assaults are screwed if their pilots arent very good.

Working as intended as far as I'm concerned. It's the mech where tactical positioning matters most.

[T K O]

Thanks for the free stuff that was cool.

This Cbill/xp nerf is literally the worst thing you could've possibly did.

[Threat Doc]

Shar Wolf, on 21 October 2014 - 09:49 PM, said:

Funny

Wasn't aware that suggesting stepping out of the PUG que was considered something mockable.

Good to know you haven't changed Kay

Wow, whether it's your original posting that was horribly insulting and the mods made you change, obviously, or perhaps as a result of this impotent attempt to replace that, I have finally come to realize that you are not only guilty of exactly what you accused me of doing, being overly critical of and unwilling to see and/or attempt to understand or accept the viewpoints of others, but that you are also unwilling to see it in yourself. You are actually worse than everything you've ever accused me of, and I now realize that it was never about me, whatsoever, but always about you. I'm saddened for you.

________________________________________

Now, to other matters... I had expressed that I did not like the Flanking rewards, yesterday, before I even tried to play with them. The way they have been written makes it sound as though whomever is to earn the reward has to park themselves in behind, or at least out of the sight of, at least one enemy 'Mech, but has to be relatively close. Having played, now, I can see things that will need to be tweaked, yet, in the future, but this is a pretty nice little reward, and I apologize for my pre-play ignorance.

For those who do not care for the drop in per-game C-Bill income, please re-think what you're saying? Many of us, including me, have multiple millions of C-Bills in the bank, and really don't need to earn all that much more, except for modification purposes, while many of us still do need XP. For my part, I've always felt the C-Bill and XP rewards were, more or less, highly uneven, perhaps even opposite what they should be.

That being said, here's a piece of logic for you... the slow-down in C-Bill income will also slow the constant meta-change, as it will restrict people from making changes to their 'Mechs so rapidly that others simply cannot keep up. This will allow those of us who prefer to NOT run with CHEESE builds, who refuse to min-max and, in general, act like twinks, to build a defense against these meta's. Up to this point, this game has been dominated by you cheese players out there... it's about time a brake was put on it. So, bully to PGI for doing so; well done.

Edited by Kay Wolf, 22 October 2014 - 05:45 AM.

[Alaric Hasek]

Kay - your message just happened to be last in the thread when I read it. I'm not calling you out on anything.

You probably have seen this already - I've had a number of Flanking rewards from LRM-fire, I suppose it just depends on which way the opponent is facing.

As for C-bills, I'm finding that I get pretty much the same as before, perhaps a bit more. I think I'm getting more because I tend to boat LRMs in Stormcrows, so before this change I was getting 1-2 kills and 6-9 assists a game. I figure I am getting 2-3 kills now because the brawlers and skirmishers are maybe not finishing off the enemy 'mechs as much? I think I need more games to be sure.

What I am noticing is that lances now tend to stick together - I see a lot of 'Lance in Formation' messages popping up.

Kay Wolf, on 22 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

Now, to other matters... I had expressed that I did not like the Flanking rewards, yesterday, before I even tried to play with them. The way they have been written makes it sound as though whomever is to earn the reward has to park themselves in behind, or at least out of the sight of, at least one enemy 'Mech, but has to be relatively close. Having played, now, I can see things that will need to be tweaked, yet, in the future, but this is a pretty nice little reward, and I apologize for my pre-play ignorance.



Up to this point, this game has been dominated by you cheese players out there... it's about time a brake was put on it. So, bully to PGI for doing so; well done.

[Defender Rococo Rockfowl]

Not sayin the new reward system is either good nor bad but i have to say:
With the difference I noticed in C-bills/XP i now completely dont give a damn about premium time

I'll just use MC for crap i wana buy. Premium time now means "jack" to me but it's all good cause I just enjoy playin mwo anyhow

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

tkospec5, on 22 October 2014 - 05:21 AM, said:

This Cbill/xp nerf is literally the worst thing you could've possibly did.

It's only a nerf if you're a suicide farmer or an average/bad player. I find you get more if you do well.

[Sjorpha]

Nocturnal Link, on 21 October 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

Would still like to see rewards for "tanking" the most damage, or at all... I hate looking like I did nothing and not being appreciated because I didn't get 500+ damage in a match. A simple column on the end game scoreboard stating "Damage Taken" would suffice.

Yeah, a "tanking" bonus would be awesome, and a great way to promote one of the important roles of heavies and assaults to match the light rewards. It could either be a straight reward per point of damage taken or it could start after some threshold like every point below 70% or so. There could also be increasing combo reward for things like surviving the match with less than 60%, 50%, 40%, 30% and so on.

It would adress one of the major PUG problems with players who try to stay in mint condition, not understanding that knowing when and how to tank damage is a key part of winning. Rewarding courage and aggression is good for the game IMO, and it would allow good torso twisters and skilled brawlers to see their expertise in surviving heavy fire reflected in the scores and paying in cash.

It would also give some incentive to dare that cruical push through LRM rain, rather than the whole team covering in paralysis and slowly wither to death.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 October 2014 - 06:47 AM.

[Iyica de Tylmarande]

Sjorpha, on 22 October 2014 - 06:36 AM, said:

Yeah, a "tanking" bonus would be awesome, and a great way to promote one of the important roles of heavies and assaults to match the light rewards. It could either be a straight reward per point of damage taken or it could start after some threshold like every point below 70% or so. There could also be increasing combo reward for things like surviving the match with less than 60%, 50%, 40%, 30% and so on.

It would adress one of the major PUG problems with players who try to stay in mint condition, not understanding that knowing when and how to tank damage is a key part of winning. Rewarding courage and aggression is good for the game IMO, and it would allow good torso twisters and skilled brawlers to see their expertise in surviving heavy fire reflected in the scores and paying in cash.

Tanking is only useful if the enemy is taking damage WHILE you're taking damage - so that needs to be measured. There should be no reward for just getting dunked.

[sabujo]

I have not played enough to formulate a concrete opinion on the new reward system, and therefore I find that most ranting and drama coming out of players should not be taken very seriously while the system gets to mature. Of course it's different and of course you need to play in a different way you did before to get the same rewards. However, I feel that there are doors open that need to be explored first with a scientific approach.

Most of my wins since last patch were between 150-200k C-bills (using PT and no Hero mech), which is very similar compared to before. I also got a game where I reached 300k (again, with PT, no hero, using a heavy).

Let's give this new system some time and please - PLEASE - do not pull the plug on a new feature like in the last patch.

[Leigus]

I'm absolutely loving this new system now I've played it in-game. I've been seeing my C-bill earnings coming very close to leveling out regardless of which weight class I play (Mediums because of the rewards, Lights because of time-to-live/speed, and Heavies/Assaults because of their superior armor/damage). This is great! It's like a toned-down version of the "diminishing returns as weight increases" economy proposed in CB.

The "Lance Formation" reward seems to be a bit lackluster, though. Firstly, because a coordinated lance which stays together for the entire duration of a 7min match earns a net amount of *drumroll*... 1680Cb. I feel like a feat like that should be worth at least 10,000Cb (which my monkey math suggests a value of 350Cb/15 seconds) but I suppose a reason for keeping the current values would be to mitigate PUB rage. If it doesn't make much money, it's not that big a deal.

Regardless, something people have been asking about for AGES is the ability to physically alter the starting location of mechs when they are moved from lance-to-lance before a match. I see the introduction of this reward as the perfect excuse to add that functionality which would further improve team coordination and by effect role warfare.

[R4wdigga]

From playing quite a few games with the new system I feel like it's much more rewarding to kill, killsteal, do most damage and go berzerk, than to play in a team atm. Killing stuff and going nuts still gives loads of c-bills. The team rewards are a good idea on their own, but way too low to earn any decent amount of c-bills. And with the heavy gutting of other rewards, if you lose a game even if you played teamwise but got no kills, comps or assists, you hardly earn anything.

So basically people are forced to go for kills now, which doesnt really help the teamplay imo.
Been piloting a heavy most of the last 16 hours, and got really great games with up to 7 kills and lots of c-bills just as before, but also punishingly bad games where we got steamrolled and I went out with negative c-bills because of using an art strike.

Don't get me wrong I like the general idea of the system, I just think the numbers are leading playstyle in a bad direction right now. I think the numbers on the "stay close" "stay lance" "support" "spot stuff" and so on - rewards should be at least doubled, while maybe "killing blow" and "most damage kill" and all of that CoD-style rewards should be reduced a bit.
That way teamplay actually becomes more rewarding, and even a loss would not be as harsh as it feels now.

Edited by R4wdigga, 22 October 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Sjorpha]

Iyica de Tylmarande, on 22 October 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

It's only a nerf if you're a suicide farmer or an average/bad player. I find you get more if you do well.

The problem with this type of thinking is that it isn't possible for most players to be above average. There is always a median between the best and the worst performers, that's what average means, it's a relative term not a description of absolute performance. For an individual player it is possible to train and become one of the best, but to say that the solution for below average players getting a bad experience is that they all "git gud" is like saying the solution to poverty is to "get rich".

As a very simple example the average K/D ratio of the player base is exactly 1, because there is exactly as many people being killed as killing someone. (And if the average is above 1, that is because underperforming players has given up and left, so that would be a very bad sign.) For every match you make 4 kills while surviving there is neccessarily at least 4 people with 0 kills, because there is less than 1 kill per player per match to get. (24/(24-average # of survivors) and if 1+ kills is YOUR average performance, and the reward system favors that type of performance, it is easy to see how this affects other players.

If everyone was as good as yourself you would average less than 1 kill per match, your excellence is a function of other players mediocrity and vice versa.

Now it is certainly reasonable that the good get more rewards than the bad, but the question, just like in society, is how big this difference should be to encourage the good without causing the bad to give up and drop out.

I'd say the baseline for a bad match has dropped too low now, if I was still as bad as when I bgan playing I would have given up under the current circumstance. In other words I could not have successfully joined the MWO player base today, that has to be a warning sign for a game that is about to go on Steam and ramp up exposure with CW...

Having said that, I love the way the new system allows me to play my light mechs, it's a great first step to a more involving game. Absolutely do not revert the change, and don't panic because of the complaints, just fix the problems of excessive inequality over time.

Edited by Sjorpha, 22 October 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[mad kat]

I must add i'm glad to see some incentives for light and medium mechs. Quite often these are the busy bodies and true brave souls on the battlefield and its right they get rewarded as such. I try to keep a tag laser on my lights wherever possible as thats what these chaps should be doing along with fending off other lights and protecting far less agile mechs from harrasers.

My pb, awesome 8v and 8q are all primarilly brawlers and im fine with the slight reduction in cbills earned from their damage as guess what? Thats exactly what they should do give as hard as they get. Now a locust or commando barreling in tagging a mech locking it and attacking it should rightfully get a biased rewards as the risks are far more dangerous.

Edited by mad kat, 22 October 2014 - 07:32 AM.

[costi]

I'm one of the under-average players and for me the earnings have dropped significantly, to the point that I don't feel like playing anymore, not with the huge price tags on everything.

One of two things must change IMHO (or both partially):
1. baseline rewards go up
2. prices go down

Otherwise the grind is too long to bother.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Kay Wolf, on 22 October 2014 - 05:27 AM, said:

It is ok for me to do it - but now I get to laugh at you and use the same arguments you used against me - while claiming to be the better person!

Aren't I AWESOME and CREATIVE!!

Kay.

The irony here is astounding

Since apparently you still have the comprehension of brain damaged roadkill let me make it clear for you.

I told you the last time we clashed that if you ever quoted me again I was reporting you for harassment.

And so I have.

Twice now.

But consider this.

I acknowledged his points.

IE

Pugging SUCKS

You CANNOT rely on random strangers

And when you group with them

Your fate is in their hands

However

There is now and only ever was one cure for that

Get into the 12 man que

How many posts did he make

Continuing to do NOTHING BUT WHINE about how HE HAD TO CARRY

Despite having been told that.

There comes a point where

Like talking with you

Being polite gets the conversation nowhere

You can

After all

Only spend so much time bashing your head

Against a brick wall

Before giving yourself brain damage

Yourself being a PRIME example of the end result of that

So to end this

Keep quoting me

And I will keep reporting you

Shar Wolf, on 21 October 2014 - 05:31 PM, said:

It is called Group Que man

This IS a "Team" game after all.
Don't like the PuGs?
There are even plenty of groups dedicated to casual drops.

Find me the mockery there

Shar Wolf, on 21 October 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

Hence the suggestion to find a decent group
As I said - there are casual ones as well as competitives.

PuG gaming is the same in EVERY game out there.
You find a group or you live with it,
Whining about it just marks you as a jackass.

There I use a term - but you will notice, of all the posts that got modded - that one got left?

You should have all the clues you need now

If you only had the required materials to put it together

Edited by Shar Wolf, 22 October 2014 - 08:21 AM.

[Bront]

BattleHymn, on 21 October 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

Anyone else noticed that when you edit one of the JJ "nerfed" mechs and it strips off the offending omnipod, that the components removed are actually GONE from your inventory? First noticed this when I was trying to refit my KFX-S and one of the C-UAC/2 was stripped off the torso was not in my inventory AND not on the torso. So I backed out without saving.

Thinking it was just a glitch, I went over to my timberwolf, opened that up for editing and discovered the same thing happened with the 2 C-LRM20's from the torsos, gone from torso and not available in inventory to be reequipped.

I suspect that saving it with empty omnipods and reopening the loadout may have my equipment in my inventory, but I'd rather not risk losing millions in equipment.

Base capping being accelerated in conquest was a welcome change, given the nature of that mode, but now assault has devolved into a race to pile all your mechs into the enemy base before they do in order to win in under 5 minutes without any tactics or fighting. I assume this was not the intended effect for assault mode.

Also to comment on the new rewards, they are MUCH too low, especially on the XP side of things. I'd like to see side-by-side comparisons of the 1.0 and 2.0 rewards in the table above. I'm consistently stunned by the low XP gained, I mean I am seeing the hud scroll with +0 XP items, not to mention the slap in the face +1XP is for kill assists. +1? You get 10x more XP for getting a 0.1s burn at 500m "flanking" than actually assisting for a kill which is rather ridiculous. Put that in perspective, that's 750 assists for the CHEAPEST mech tree item, keep in mind that ~40000 XP is required to get one mech to full elite? That's no longer a game, it's become a chore.

C-bills nerf, I could almost stomach (we've been down that road before last year), but nerfing XP is inexcusable. You want me to keep playing at a literal disadvantage to try grind "new" mechs compared to those that mastered them 3-5X faster months ago?

After 2-3 weeks of happily playing since I finally gave in and dropped another $400 on this game, I am feeling pretty cheated and am considering filing for a refund. After getting burned last year on CW after preordering the phoenix pack, I swore not to spend another dime on this game until that promise was fulfilled. I got ahead of myself with your recent work, and my faith seemed restored after you guys broke away from IGP and appeared to be going on the right path with weekly challenges, more community events and the customer appreciation initiative was what really pushed me over the edge.

With this patch, I am starting to regret going back on my decision and feel like you are giving us the "IGP" treatment again, stretch out the grind, reduce in-game currency to pressure people into more MC? I've already spent more than the better part of a thousand dollars on a SINGLE game (which is arguably unfinished) and you are going to degrade the experience for me for more? Some would call this bait and switch.

I appreciate that you'd like to encourage team play, I'm with you on that but it was (hopefully unintentionally) too heavy handed overall and I certainly hope that you rectify this situation very quickly, or you risk undoing all the good will and brownie points you've gained in the last couple months going in the right direction. If I need to go through with getting a refund, I certainly will not be looking back again, as they say, "Fool me once, shame on you... fool me twice..."

Edit the mech, save, go to a different mech, then go back to that one, the gear will reappear.

I was annoyed because my Kitfox-S build was legal with the change, but it still cleared out the mech. Gave me a chance to move stuff around though, which I had wanted to do anyway.

[Magos Titanicus]

Appogee, on 21 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Complicated reward system is complicated.

Seems like it might be another stealth CBill nerf, given the massive reduction in assist reward.

But I'll continue to play with the benefit of the team foremost in mind, and see whether I maintain my earning rate.

not sure to call it nerv, rather education
it forces a player to be a constructive member which i personally agree to.
well, at least my cbill income hasn't decreased and is stable round 150k - 200k per match

edit: forgot to mention that i use premium time, most of the time...

Edited by Magos Titanicus, 22 October 2014 - 07:59 AM.

[R4wdigga]

Just scored another win in a heavy, 0 kills, 11 assists, 680 damage, several comps + killmostdamage + assists + proximity + lance near + brawl rewards. Only 123k c-bills... it really feels like killing blows is the way to go atm. And that really sucks. Tune numbers PGI please. This can't be serious.

[Magos Titanicus]

R4wdigga, on 22 October 2014 - 08:01 AM, said:

Just scored another win in a heavy, 0 kills, 11 assists, 680 damage, several comps + killmostdamage + assists + proximity + lance near + brawl rewards. Only 123k c-bills... it really feels like killing blows is the way to go atm. And that really sucks. Tune numbers PGI please. This can't be serious.

there u go -> http://mwomercs.com/...ch-notes-13345/

edit: keep in mind they also mentioned to gather data for next two days (http://mwomercs.com/...ds-20-feedback/) and i'm pretty sure there will be adjustments

Edited by Magos Titanicus, 22 October 2014 - 08:11 AM.