311 replies to this topic

[Fantastic Ergo]

DocBach, on 23 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

If you want a choice to where the previous choices you make have no effect on your gameplay, there is the open queue for you to play in. The faction warfare portion of the game is specifically for players involved in their specific factions, and changing those factions will come at a penalty.

Your obviously not understanding what it's being said. First the fact that am engaged on a forum discussion means that I care about CW, I have said that I am completely ok with loyalty points going down, what am not ok with is for rewards that I paid Loyalty point on, to be removed forcefully because a pilot decided to change factions. This am totally against, if they are creating yet another economy market, in which you will be getting items bought by loyalty points, those items should be for me to decide when to bring and use. The fact that if you are part of a unit you have to be part of that faction your unit is on, that alone makes it so you can't be flip flopping. Also CW was supposed to be for both faction units and mercs alike, so now if you are a merc and you want to have work from different units that belong to different faction. then your LP that were used to get items, those items can be taken away from you.
Or a pilot that was kicked out of a unit because some raging power trip "a-circle" wanted to kick him out and now he finds room on another unit , his items are taken away.

It should be player choice what items to bring in his mechs.

I have no problem with making the flip flopping cumbersome in some way. But taking away things that were grinded should not be taken away. Just like cockpit items that were purchased , it should be a player choice what to bring and when, and yes most will bring the items that are accurate to their faction, but this is a player choice to "Role Play".

What if i get an Item that i got from CW, but now am playing on an external league where i may be associated with a different faction, if i grinded the item I want to use the Item.

What if when i pug i want to use some of the items whatever they may be because I grinded them by putting the time and effort, why take that away fromt he pilot. there are many more effective ways to discourage CW faction flip flopping than taking away rewards you grinded.

And yea the grind in this game is quite intense, so will I ever to get this LP items if they can be taken away after I spent my LP on them? I may as well don't ever get them.
This discourages the usage of LP more than discourage people from flip flopping.

[DocBach]

No, I suppose I'm not understanding your point -- I read Paul's post and I didn't see anything that said you wouldn't be able to equip cockpit items you earned (or purchased) from factions you aren't aligned with.

However, certain items that bestow faction point bonuses might be restricted from the balance viewpoint that equipping faction items for the enemy you are facing to mitigate penalties if you decide to switch sides later could be viewed as an exploit.

Edited by DocBach, 23 October 2014 - 04:03 PM.

[tripsangel]

my question for this is pretty much this topic I made:

http://mwomercs.com/...pecific-prices/

has the idea popped up? for faction particular prices for mechs: clanners get cheaper clan tech, but pricer IS tech? etc etc

[Sam Slade]

TheCaptainJZ, on 23 October 2014 - 02:03 AM, said:

psss....
you can always use clan mechs or IS mechs in the public queues at any time. So, not sitting on a shelf for 1-4 months.

And here I(customer) was thinking that I'd be the one to decide which of the 'core pillars' of the game(product) I'd engage with(spend money on) and how I would go about doing that... silly me for thinking they wanted to go ahead and take my money...

Seriously... it's got to be the easiest change in he world... add a switch tab... refresh the map with Clan or IS. It's well worth the doubled use of memory for the doubled volume of sales right? (Oddly this is bugging me because its going to generate revenue , has little to do with gameplay, is EASY to do and because I need justification to buy more packs).

SIDE NOTE: So... no Outreach/Stranta pools for unaligned mechwarriors to plug gaps as famous merc units/reinforcements? Seems like another misssed oppertunity...

Edited by Sam Slade, 23 October 2014 - 04:14 PM.

[Fantastic Ergo]

DocBach, on 23 October 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

No, I suppose I'm not understanding your point -- I read Paul's post and I didn't see anything that said you wouldn't be able to equip cockpit items you earned (or purchased) from factions you aren't aligned with.

However, certain items that bestow faction point bonuses might be restricted from the balance viewpoint that equipping faction items for the enemy you are facing to mitigate penalties if you decide to switch sides later could be viewed as an exploit.

"Any rewards gained through LP will be retained, but cannot be used unless the LP total for the Faction is at the reward's LP requirement. For example, if the Kurita player unlocked a rank 10 skin, that rank 10 skin is only usable if their Kurita LP is at rank 10 level."

This a nice way of saying, they are taken away.

This to me is not a reward, it's a lease. They will let you lease an item just as long as you have the LP for it.

Anyhow, am done posting on the forum. I just don't agree with calling something a reward that can be taken away. it is not a reward, and much less if you use LP to buy it.

If the format hey are going with rewards stays as currently specified, I will never use any LP to buy anything at all. Or care much about LP. I already have a hard enough time trying to raise C-bills with the current economics of this game.

[Logan Hawke]

@Ergo

I completely agree. And I really think it's weird that some hardcore RPers seem to think they're the majority of the players that are going to use CW. Is it really that strange that the rest of us want a competitive, meaningful game mode that we can play in? Saying we only get standard que is really starting to sound like "**** you casual noob you're not a real fan obviously this mode isn't for you".
Sorry, but I think it would be better for everyone if CW was for more than a couple thousand RPers at most.

Edited by Logan Hawke, 23 October 2014 - 04:42 PM.

[DocBach]

Logan Hawke, on 23 October 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

@Ergo

I completely agree. And I really think it's weird that some hardcore RPers seem to think they're the majority of the players that are going to use CW. Is it really that strange that the rest of us want a competitive, meaningful game mode that we can play in? Saying we only get standard que is really starting to sound like "**** you casual noob you're not a real fan obviously this mode isn't for you".
Sorry, but I think it would be better for everyone if CW was for more than a couple thousand RPers at most.

So not being able to paint your 'Mech a specific way changes your ability to be a competitive player how?

[Logan Hawke]

DocBach, on 23 October 2014 - 04:44 PM, said:

So not being able to paint your 'Mech a specific way changes your ability to be a competitive player how?

I was referring more to your earlier comments, but as far as that specific one goes, well, have you spent any money on this game? Got a favorite hero mech or warhorn that you really like to use above all else? Well too bad, it breaks someone's immersion so you can't use it anymore. Doesn't matter that you're fighting people named 'xxyolobawlzxx', it's that mech/warhorn that really causes problems. Doesn't matter that you spent your hard earned time/money on that, it causes problems for a few people and they're more important than you and everyone else with those items.


You ever played any games like this before? WoT, WT, PS2? You do not take away items that people have earned EVER. That brings down rage and righteous fury from your players faster than posting hate speech on Twitter. Because at least with the hate speech you're not messing with the player's hard earned stuff.

[DocBach]

Well, since the very beginning, back to the announcement of this game, we were told faction choices were going to be more meaningful than an icon in our forums avatar.

That included specific, exclusive faction paint jobs that were earned through loyalty points, and even extended to what kind of 'Mechs you could field.

But yeah, I guess I see your point. Being able to put a Kuritan warhorn on your 'mech while you're playing as a Davion player should be a much higher priority in this game than appeasing players of this franchise who've played the game for 30+ years. I'm sure more players buy into this game because of such features like warhorns and not because they're fans of the universe, anyhow.

[Logan Hawke]

Scromboid, on 23 October 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

Taking an earned portion of the game (rewards) away from a player because they want to play another part of your game is a bad idea.

Please do not punish us for wanting to experience the whole game.

1000xThis

[Logan Hawke]

DocBach, on 23 October 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

Well, since the very beginning, back to the announcement of this game, we were told faction choices were going to be more meaningful than an icon in our forums avatar.

That included specific, exclusive faction paint jobs that were earned through loyalty points, and even extended to what kind of 'Mechs you could field.

But yeah, I guess I see your point. Being able to put a Kuritan warhorn on your 'mech while you're playing as a Davion player should be a much higher priority in this game than appeasing players of this franchise who've played the game for 30+ years. I'm sure more players buy into this game because of such features like warhorns and not because they're fans of the universe, anyhow.

Sarcasm aside, yeah. More players will pay for a game that lets them do what they want. That's the thing, this isn't a good battletech game, it's a good game on it's own merits. People play this game that aren't battletech fans themselves, much less fans that aren't so hardcore they'll feel abused when a player fighting for Kurita using a Davion colorscheme appears in a match. That's the important part. Take a step back and think about this as a game, not as a facet of your beloved and treasured BT franchise.

Yes, there should be penalties for changing sides. Such as the loss of LP they stated. That works quite well, you have to work your way up again to get new things. Taking away all your stuff that you've earned though? No. That's a bad idea.

Remember, there are far more people playing this game than there are active on the forums. Also remember that things might have to change from what they suggested years ago so that the largest possible group is happy. I've got to be honest, I don't see a large percentage at all actually having problems with non-faction colorschemes. I see far, far more having problems when they find out that awesome colorscheme they earned can no longer be used because they wanted a fresh change of pace fighting for a different faction.

[DocBach]

We don't know what kind of bonuses faction specific items or paint jobs will provide. They could provide tangible increases of things like loyalty points, etc. Like I said previously, if that's the case, the loyalty system would be easily abusable allowing you to decrease the amount of work you have to do to change factions.

The whole color scheme for specific factions is suppose to display cannon paint jobs that lore famous units used as a reward for sticking with a faction. If you jump ship and join the enemy and come back, you got to work your way back up. This isn't just for a roleplaying perspective, its to discourage constant ship jumping, which can affect the balance of factions. If faction A is getting beat by faction B and everyone decides its a sinking ship and joins faction B for the time being until things cool down, you end up with an imbalance between factions.

[Nick Makiaveli]

I too would like more info in permanent faction choice and contracts. I'm assuming it will be a monthly award, but larger than the pro-rated amount given to the shorter contracts?

[Fantastic Ergo]

DocBach,

you keep trying hijack the argument and make this a rpers vs competitive argument.
Not at any point has any of my comments referred to that, so you are missing the point completely or are trying hard to change the conversation to please your agenda.

this is strictly my objection to have something call a rewards that can be taken away.

if a merc unit did work for a Davion unit and they did excellent work but then they did work for Steiner and then after a 3 month contract went back to Davion, all the stuff they bought with LP while they were Davion the first time should still be available for them to use. In the current propose format, they would have lost this so call rewards until they grind it again.

This is not about the meaning of CW, or rpers vs competitive or flying rainbow ponies. It's just pointing out that if they make people engage in yet a third currency market, that they should think about what trying to encourage people using it would do if they decide to start taking away earned items and rewards. In any case if they want it to work that way, then just make it automatically and not worry about giving players the choice to buy things with LP. As I see it this will deter people from spending any LP in this so call rewards.

[Logan Hawke]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

DocBach,

you keep trying hijack the argument and make this a rpers vs competitive argument.
Not at any point has any of my comments referred to that, so you are missing the point completely or are trying hard to change the conversation to please your agenda.

this is strictly my objection to have something call a rewards that can be taken away.

if a merc unit did work for a Davion unit and they did excellent work but then they did work for Steiner and then after a 3 month contract went back to Davion, all the stuff they bought with LP while they were Davion the first time should still be available for them to use. In the current propose format, they would have lost this so call rewards until they grind it again.

This is not about the meaning of CW, or rpers vs competitive or flying rainbow ponies. It's just pointing out that if they make people engage in yet a third currency market, that they should think about what trying to encourage people using it would do if they decide to start taking away earned items and rewards. In any case if they want it to work that way, then just make it automatically and not worry about giving players the choice to buy things with LP. As I see it this will deter people from spending any LP in this so call rewards.

Exactly. And Doc... I highly, highly doubt that those rewards are going to give you tangible bonuses. We're not Execs. We're not being paid for being paid

Edited by Logan Hawke, 23 October 2014 - 05:46 PM.

[DocBach]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

DocBach,

you keep trying hijack the argument and make this a rpers vs competitive argument.
Not at any point has any of my comments referred to that, so you are missing the point completely or are trying hard to change the conversation to please your agenda.

this is strictly my objection to have something call a rewards that can be taken away.

if a merc unit did work for a Davion unit and they did excellent work but then they did work for Steiner and then after a 3 month contract went back to Davion, all the stuff they bought with LP while they were Davion the first time should still be available for them to use. In the current propose format, they would have lost this so call rewards until they grind it again.

This is not about the meaning of CW, or rpers vs competitive or flying rainbow ponies. It's just pointing out that if they make people engage in yet a third currency market, that they should think about what trying to encourage people using it would do if they decide to start taking away earned items and rewards. In any case if they want it to work that way, then just make it automatically and not worry about giving players the choice to buy things with LP. As I see it this will deter people from spending any LP in this so call rewards.

Wait, how am I the one hijacking this? In several posts you've called out "roleplayers" for being an influencing factor on the development of this game, in ways you say is detrimental to the competitive scene.

What I am pointing out, that if these items are earned through faction loyalty, and are completely cosmetic, they don't affect your game play at all, and are used specifically as a reward to people who play and keep the same faction, how does that affect the competitive scene or meta game at all? If you have to re-earn it after playing a different faction it doesn't put you at a better or more advantageous status in the game, it just lets you show off your game time you've given to that specific faction -- you said it yourself, these faction colors aren't as much as earned as possessed but on lease from the faction you are loyal with.

This definitely isn't the first game where working for one faction penalizes your standing with other factions. It's one of those decisions that end up having weight behind them. If you want to join a new team, and wear their more elite paint schemes only available to high ranking members of that team, you got to earn it. If you join a new team, you're the new guy and have to work your way up the ladder again. You get to retain your rank somewhat with the honorary title.

Certain items, like hanging cockpit items do add tangible benefits like increased loyalty points, and in the future there might be more of these items. Like I pointed out, restricting them to players aligned with that faction helps mitigate exploiting the loyalty system by equipping the enemy's faction item to avoid being hit with loyalty point penalties for killing members of that faction. Having to rework for perks is a way to dissuade players from jumping factions and potentially unbalancing the overall factions.

However, unlike something that does not affect gameplay at all like a color scheme you have to re-earn, changing factions frequently can have an actual objective affect on the gameplay and faction balance, especially since entire Merc Corps are doing the switching with faction warfare.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 04:23 PM, said:

"Any rewards gained through LP will be retained, but cannot be used unless the LP total for the Faction is at the reward's LP requirement. For example, if the Kurita player unlocked a rank 10 skin, that rank 10 skin is only usable if their Kurita LP is at rank 10 level."

This a nice way of saying, they are taken away.
...

They may be taken away because you made a conscious decision to change your loyalty. If you change employers, the pay and benefits are going to be different. I'm guessing you don't keep the key to the Google executive washroom or your parking spot in the shade at the Googleplex after you transfer to Amazon. You do, however, keep the pay you earned (and the stuff you bought with it) and can use your achievements to fill out your resume.

Maybe "rewards" is the wrong term ... maybe it should be "perks" or "benefits".

[SovietArmada]

Oh many thank god I read the QA because I had an idea and was too lazy to post it at the time...
Anyway, someone mentioned that ammo consuming mech's may run out of ammo and be "forced" to eject out of their mech because they can no longer contribute to the fight effectively or at all.

The idea of resupply centers is great, but I think that can be well incorporated with unit coffers. For instance, a Unit may use their coffers to purchase ammo and may bring a set amount of ammo to the game. This ammo will be stockpiled in the resupply center for mechs to come and go to reload their weapons so long as their is munition of the correct type.

That idea in of itself brings out a few more ideas. So I would try to organize them.

Planetary Base Upgrading

I believe the longer a unit holds a planet, the harder it should be to take over. Units that hold the planet alongside with merc groups that have a stake in the planet should be able to use their coffers to upgrade their base. Now because we are limited to what we have, the first few suggestion of what is up-gradable is simple in thought process.

• Turret HP
  
• Turret Range
  
• Gate HP
  
• Generator HP
  
• Resupply Center (must be built first)
  
• Resupply Center HP
  
• Resupply Center Storage Capacity
  
• Mech Repair Area (must be built first, discussed below further)

• Upgrades come in increments, i.e. each turret hp upgrade increase turret HP by 5, maximum of 5 upgrades.
  
• Each upgrade takes time and money to complete. The initial purchase + a set duration for the completion of the upgrade

The longer a unit holds a planet, the more time they have to upgrade their fort to give them an edge over attackers.





Now I would like to talk about the Resupply center and Mech Repair Area ideas.

Resupply Center

• Defending Side

By default each defending Side will come with a Resupply Area, not to be confused with a center. As soon as a planet is conquered, a default resupply Area is available. This supply area may only hold a small limited amount of ammo and can only be supplied by the unit controlling the planet. This Resupply Area is shared by everyone during a defensive fight.





Once the Resupply Area has been replaced by a Resupply Center, several benefits open up.

• More Global Storage Space
  
• Private Storage Space
  
• All Defending Units may store their own supply of set ammunition in the resupply center. Units can only use their own ammo brought into storage to resupply (Private Storage Space).
  
• If Unit ammo is depleted or a non Unit defending Mech attempts to resupply, the global stockpile is used, if any (ammunition supplied by planter controlled faction).

This provides incentive for factions and merc units to supply and bring their own supply of ammunition to better defend planets.

• Attacking Side

Attacking units may bring their own ammunition via drop ship. Their will be a "camp" of a sort with a supply area. Each unit may bring a set ammunition amount to be used to resupply during the battle. The ammunition site still counts as a Private Storage area, meaning units may only resupply from their own stockpile that was brought, ammunition is not shared among different units or lone wolves.





This may also bring about the idea to upgrade drop ships to allow the unit to bring more ammunition to a fight. Again upgrades should cost money as well as time for completion.

Mech Repair Area

This is a very debatable idea, but I would like to throw it out there, this again adds more incentive for members to contribute to unit coffers. Now the idea of repairing a Mech is a very advantageous idea, and it should come with a steep cost. This idea ties in with the storage area. Units can buy what is called "Scraps". These scraps act like ammunition in terms of storage. Let's say as an example 1 ton is 50 Scraps. A unit may either fill the storage area with a ton of selected ammo or a ton of scraps. Each ton of Scraps should be EXPENSIVE.

The way scraps work is very simple. A mech enters the Repair Area, and has 2 tons of armor that has been shot off. Let's say for this example the mech has EXACTLY two tons of armor gone. The mech would consume 2 tons of scraps to repair the armor. Now to go into a little detail, 1 ton of scrap does not always mean 1 ton of armor.

• 1 ton of armor = 1x ton of scrap
  
• 1 ton of internal = 1.5x ton of scrap
  
• 1 critical slot = 2x ton of scrap (detail below)

As you can see, when you enter the repair bay, the more damaged you are, and depending how you are damaged, the more scraps you will consume.





Critical Slot Repair

Now, this again ties in to resupply center and more incentive for unit coffers. Let's say you lose a medium laser. If your unit brought a medium laser to store in the resupply center (1 ton), you can go in and rearm yourself. However this consumes two things:

• Consumes the needed item to replace from the storage area if available.
  
• Consumes scraps equal to amount of critical slots needed

So if you lose a medium laser, it will consume one medium laser and 2x ton of scrap to repair that critical slot. If you lose say an AC 20, you will need an AC 20 available in the resupply area AND 20x tons of scrap to repair the critical slots.





So repairing and rearming large weapons is a risk and reward. For one you consume a lot of tonnage in your resupply area with the needed item and scraps for it, leaving little to no room for anything else (depending on size of your resupply center), and the cost to repair that AC 20 in total is huge with the scraps used and type of item consumed.

This adds tactics to management of how units want to role our their Mechs so they can best make use of the Resupply Center and Mech Repair Center.

Resupply Center and Mech Repair Area Buildings

Now both sides should be able to have these aforementioned buildings. However, how they are used are different.

• Defending Side

​The defending side has one area where the Resupply Center and Mech Repair Area are, they should be very close to each other if not next to each other since they are in a sense sharing materials. The level of the buildings solely depends on the faction controlling the planet. Only the controlling faction may upgrade the buildings. The buildings can be used by all defenders, but Private and Public storage rules apply.

• Attacking Side

The attacking side also has one area where the Resupply Center and Mech Repair Area are, and should also be very close to each other. However, the building HP is a set stat that cannot be upgraded. There is no Public storage area, only Private (but all in one place in a sense). While upgraded drop ships may bring more tons to the resupply center, they must remember that the buildings themselves are relatively weak. The buildings can only be used by UNITS provided they have brought their OWN materials to use.

• Tactical Game play (Defend Supply Line)

This should add another layer to tactics, both sides can take out the others Resupply Area and Mech Repair area. Though the defenders risk having less people defending if a few lights/mediums want to risk venturing out to try to locate and destroy the buildings (Building spawns should be random for each side withing a set location so their is no memorization and set path to follow).





This can also add the possibility of adding a very small amount of turrets for the offensive side for some protection for their "camps".

If a side loses their Mech Repair Area, they simply lose the ability to repair their Mech; However, if a side loses their resupply center they lose the ability to not only resupply but repair as well, since all materials are destroyed.

This also adds in a risk factor for factions and units supplying their planters/drop ships. If your supply area is destroyed you LOSE ALL the materials you have invested in the storage area for that match. Again a risk vs reward mentality and a better sense of coffer management. Should the supply center survive, win or lose, all remaining materials will be returned to proper contributors rounded down. Meaning if you have 49 scraps of tons left, or 6 tons of AC 20 left, the number will be rounded down and nothing returned.


So to summerize:

• Resupply Areas only have a tonnage limit to determine how much is storable
  
• Defensive Resupply Areas have both a Public Storage Area and Private Storage Area
  
• Defensive Resupply Areas can be upgraded to increase size of Public and Private Storage Area
  
• Offensive Resupply Areas only have Private Storage Area
  
• Offensive Resupply Areas storage capacity is independent to each units Drop Ship upgrade level for storage
  
• Offensive Resupply Areas cannot be upgraded in any way directly, have a set HP
  
• Defensive and Offensive Mech Repair Area cannot be upgraded
  
• Defensive Mech Repair Area must be built in the defending planet to be used
  
• Offensive Mech Repair Area must be built in the Drop Ship and enables use in any offensive assault

Again these are just ideas I thought I would throw out there, hope they might be helpful for future considerations.

Edited by SovietArmada, 23 October 2014 - 06:54 PM.

[Logan Hawke]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 23 October 2014 - 06:07 PM, said:

They may be taken away because you made a conscious decision to change your loyalty. If you change employers, the pay and benefits are going to be different. I'm guessing you don't keep the key to the Google executive washroom or your parking spot in the shade at the Googleplex after you transfer to Amazon. You do, however, keep the pay you earned (and the stuff you bought with it) and can use your achievements to fill out your resume.

Maybe "rewards" is the wrong term ... maybe it should be "perks" or "benefits".

Yes, the stuff you bought with it. Like the stuff you bought with loyalty points.

@Doc

Do you think only RPers enjoy having cosmetics, especially a variety of cosmetics. I'm pretty sure I love the hell out of cosmetics. I wouldn't have bought half the paints if I didn't.

[DocBach]

no, being able to switch cosmetics is a part of player customizability. However, some are used as rewards for maintaining loyalty to the specific factions. That's the entire point of them. If you like the faction paint so much that not having it ruins your game, don't switch factions. If you are a collector who wants to have every paint job, sorry some are exclusive.

Again, this promotes player retention for the different houses. It makes swapping factions something that isn't done on a whim and something that has consequences. The overall goal is obviously to make things more difficult to prevent massive shifts in power between houses, and if they choose to provide incentive to sell you premium time or some other item that increases loyalty faster.

Speaking of faction balance, I wouldn't be surprised if they give better contracts that pay out more for less popular factions to maintain a homeostasis in the balance of power so one faction doesn't become the whipping boy.... However, the monetary payout might mean you have to trade in your spiffy paint job from your last employer...