637 replies to this topic

[Kirkland Langue]

I rarely bring AMS these days - but it isn't because I don't find LRM to be effective, it's because AMS is almost totally worthless unless you have 3-4 of them.

When the enemy has 3 or 4 missile boats - each firing volley's of 40 missiles, AMS doesn't have a chance of keeping up and then you are blinded and stunlocked anyways so you die.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Hmm how about if multiple LRM launchers are in the same hard point location...gauss explosion mechanic comes in to play.

Add some risk to boating them.

[Sudden]

for petes sake theres NOTHING WRONG WITH LRMS. what is wrong with peeps crying for an lrm nerf.they are in a good place right now.

[Bront]

LRMs currently do 1.1 damage per missile.

Reduce it to 1.0 damage per missile.

See what happens.

Kirkland Langue, on 28 October 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

I rarely bring AMS these days - but it isn't because I don't find LRM to be effective, it's because AMS is almost totally worthless unless you have 3-4 of them.

When the enemy has 3 or 4 missile boats - each firing volley's of 40 missiles, AMS doesn't have a chance of keeping up and then you are blinded and stunlocked anyways so you die.

AMS is best with a team, which means if you aren't bringing it, you're hurting your team.

I find the time to survive on mechs with AMS vs without it is rather large regarding missiles. It also helps with high alpha SRM boats.

[Barantor]

Browsed the replies since it was 15 pages.

Some of you know me, those of you that do know I like LRMs. I only bought the level of founder I did because I got a Catapult, which is one of the big 'LRM Boats' of the IS.

I have always been a proponent of getting my own locks when possible and only indirect fire when a teammate is scouting the enemy. That said I would (as I have said since beta....)....

- Give indirect fire a spread nerf. LRM 5s should spread what 10s currently do, and then calculate up the spread from there.

- Give direct fire a buff. LRMs fired directly should act as SRMs, maintaining the range restrictions on IS lrms and keeping the current spread for direct fired lrms that we have.

- Narc'd mechs should get the current spread of LRMs even when indirect.

- Tagged mechs should get an even tighter spread if direct fired and tagged. (Basically you are being punished for stepping out of cover just like when you step out in front of direct fire brawlers.)

I do believe that they messed up big time by giving the clan LRMs the staggered fire. Basically it acts the same as the LRM5 'spam' that the IS mechs were doing before. Keep the better cooldown rates for clan lrms and the no minimum range and they could be fine.


As far as you guys saying some of the maps are bad for getting hit by LRMs? Do you realize that there are more maps that are terrible to have LRMs? Any of the 'city' style maps have tons of cover and the small maps mean an LRM boat has to move a lot or folks know exactly where they are.

I still want to see quirks be out and tinkered with before any weapon systems are messed with.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm - broken record here.

you have two oposites
PUG - bad many LRMs because of bad team game
organized games - bad few LRMs because of good team play - the risk for the scout is not worth the afford.

In the current setting any buff for LRMs to get them into the organized team games will make them pure Apokalypse in PUGs.

So there are only two ways:
Nerf them - they will vanish from PUGs....and keep away from ranking plays

Change them in there indirect mode into "strong" team play weapons. You should need a very perfect team game to make them work. As said before - the spotter has to make the lock - the LRM only hit a button (like in MWLL - lamp = green , press FIRE - nothing more)
if there is no spotter or the spotter does not get a lock - you can't fire the LRMs indirect, not every Mech should be a spotter on the other hand - simple - like switching AMS on/off ECM/ECCM - you have to switch your target and tracking system to "SPOT" - you can't fire a single weapon while spotting.... and you have to keep on the target until the Missiles hit.
After they hit you need another lock.

See - hardly anybody will do that in PUG - you dance you doge - and finaly the LRMs of your mates hit the target - two punny LRM5s.

= Indirect LRM fire will vanish from PUG game
= now you can BUFF them to become a force to recon with in organized game - for example when a single spotter is able to cripple a Mech in a single salvo (faster speed, more range) - when there is a dedicated LRM lance that support him

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

PhoenixFire55, on 28 October 2014 - 05:24 AM, said:

So when did Forest Colony hills got high enough to stop LRMs? Or most River and Frozen City buildings? Sure I can power down and LRMs will home into the last known position i.e. exactly where I powered down. Sure I can turn left or right 90 degrees except that left is that same said cover (i.e. a wall in front of me) and right is too far from cover and in the open again.

Most of cover we have on all maps is either too low or not wide enough to affect LRMs with their current flight patterns as long as opposing LRM launchers aren't standing in nearly exact same spot. If two LRM mechs are at least 200m away from each other then at least one of them will always be able to rain on you even when you are standing behind cover. There are always exceptions and places that do provide solid cover, but they are either scarce or are in places where nobody fights in the first place.

3/4 of forest colony has cover from lurms. You just don't go water.. There are only 3 good positions for lurms that hit about five areas that you lot just think has to gone to. Even if those areas are just big kill boxes for direct and indirect fire.

[Kellen Wolf]

I swear this community and probably Russ, (since his answer to everything is nerf it), won't be happy untill the players are all fighting in the exact same mech with the exact same weapon. Though I guaran-effin-tee people would still find somthing that has an unfair andvantage and want it nerf'd. LRMs are easy to counter use cover, take ECM/AMS etc. I won't take any arguement about LRMs seriously when I consistantly see people trying to stand out in the open trying to fight, then cry that they are getting rained on. But then again I and the group I play with don't have a problem with many of the things people have whined about in the past, (pop-tarts etc.), you simply counter it, learn how to do it. Russ said he changed PPC/Guass so you have to have more 'skill' to use them, how about making people use more skill to find a counter instead of pandering to the people that CONTINUALLY cry 'no fair'. Sack up, take some personal responsibility, and practice to get better.

[Joseph Mallan]

Kirkland Langue, on 28 October 2014 - 08:15 AM, said:

I rarely bring AMS these days - but it isn't because I don't find LRM to be effective, it's because AMS is almost totally worthless unless you have 3-4 of them.

When the enemy has 3 or 4 missile boats - each firing volley's of 40 missiles, AMS doesn't have a chance of keeping up and then you are blinded and stunlocked anyways so you die.

See You don't know how good you have it if you think this. MW:O AMS is leagues better than TT.
TT:
Your AMS only targeted the first Missile salvo directed at you. ONLY You.
AMS had(old rules) 6 rounds of ammo(IS) and 12(Clan). You rolled 1d6 and that was the amount of ammo spent shooting down 1d6 Missiles. So I could use all my Battlemaster's AMS ammo shooting down 1 missile. It's gotten better, but it still sucks compared to what we have!

[Barantor]

Karl Streiger, on 28 October 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Hm - broken record here.

you have two oposites
PUG - bad many LRMs because of bad team game
organized games - bad few LRMs because of good team play - the risk for the scout is not worth the afford.

In the current setting any buff for LRMs to get them into the organized team games will make them pure Apokalypse in PUGs.

So there are only two ways:
Nerf them - they will vanish from PUGs....and keep away from ranking plays

Change them in there indirect mode into "strong" team play weapons. You should need a very perfect team game to make them work. As said before - the spotter has to make the lock - the LRM only hit a button (like in MWLL - lamp = green , press FIRE - nothing more)
if there is no spotter or the spotter does not get a lock - you can't fire the LRMs indirect, not every Mech should be a spotter on the other hand - simple - like switching AMS on/off ECM/ECCM - you have to switch your target and tracking system to "SPOT" - you can't fire a single weapon while spotting.... and you have to keep on the target until the Missiles hit.
After they hit you need another lock.

See - hardly anybody will do that in PUG - you dance you doge - and finaly the LRMs of your mates hit the target - two punny LRM5s.

= Indirect LRM fire will vanish from PUG game
= now you can BUFF them to become a force to recon with in organized game - for example when a single spotter is able to cripple a Mech in a single salvo (faster speed, more range) - when there is a dedicated LRM lance that support him

Honestly, I would be fine if the only way to indirect fire was someone else tagging or narcing the target, but as you said, it would actually need a buff for that in a way.

[salkeee]

Not sure about LRMs being too strong U just need to close in on enemy but in PUGs where most ppl think that hiding can win games than **** hapens and lurmers win and ppl start to cry.
Yes there are few maps where LRMs rule idk so be it each map have its perefered weapons I dont mind some of tham being for LRMs.
Lets be honest here ppl keep playing same and same tactic over and over and than they complain that it doesnt work in all situations.

The thing that bothers me is that my 2 tons of AMS ammo goes puf within 1st 3 min of game without AMS modules.I mean Do I need to boat AMS ammo ?How much 8tons 10 tons? Sure drop out that AC10 and put AMS ammo.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

Barantor, on 28 October 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

Honestly, I would be fine if the only way to indirect fire was someone else tagging or narcing the target, but as you said, it would actually need a buff for that in a way.

A serious buff. Missiles would have to fire at AC speed and fire tight with LOS. otherwise it is lose lose. Can't duck down, can't match damage.

[Psyker]

I don't even get how people can think LRM's are a big threat. They are effective in far too few situations for me to even worry about them.

Am I in ECM? Not worried.
Am I in decent AMS coverage? Not worried.
Am I in cover or near cover? Not worried.
Am I in brawling range? Not worried.

The only time I am worried about LRM's killing me is if I have NONE of the above, and that is very rare. LRMs are one of the few weapons that have plenty of easy-to-use counters. They don't need a nerf. Do they need to change how they work? Probably. But just nerfing them won't solve anything.


Hell, most of the time if I see an LRM boat, I just count it as an easy kill.

Edited by Psyker, 28 October 2014 - 08:44 AM.

[Thorqemada]

Kilo 40, on 28 October 2014 - 02:43 AM, said:

and your evidence of that is...???

Profile -> Stats -> Map Stats

[Jonathan Paine]

How about we buff skilled use of LRMs? Double the speed of direct fire (no lock) missiles. 5% speed reduction for locked missiles. And tune down that insanely stupid "lights flashing, cockpit rattling" side effects.

[Jody Von Jedi]

I'm a medium brawler mostly and I hate LRMs.

However, I don't think they should be nerfed. The way I feel is this: If I get LRM'd to death, I deserved it. There are are plenty of counters to LRMs, I just don't always take advantage of them. I don't always carry AMS and I never carry Radar Deprivation. Cover is usually my preferred method of dealing with the LRMers. When I get NARC'd, and die a horrible writhing death when I can't find cover, I rage, but I no longer blame the game mechanics or the LRMer. I blame myself for allowing it to happen.

This weekend, I got bored of my typical loadout (SRMs and ML) and loaded up my TBT-LG with (4) LRM5 and every Target lock Speed/Range enhancer I had, BAP, Target Info Gathering module, Target Range module and Artemis. I could acquire target lock almost instantaneous (at least it felt that way). I got a couple kills every 3 or 4 matches, but I really don't like that play style. Perhaps a Heavy chassis like a CPT and I'd appreciate it more.

TL;DR : I don't think they need a Nerf nor do I like that play style.

[Joe Mallad]

Kjudoon, on 27 October 2014 - 11:33 PM, said:

The solution is simple. There are two of them. Both SHOULD be implemented, but at least one MUST be implemented.

1. AMS can no longer shoot through scenery or other mechs. (SHOULD be done)
2. AMS only targets missiles aimed at you. (MUST be done)

Reason for boating ended. LRM heat nerfs justified.

agree with 1 but not 2.
AMS is meant to be a missile protection system and just like with navel ships in real life that have the same systems, these systems are also meant to be on ships that are there to protect more important ships.

If you have a few mechs with AMS that can be your front line protection from incoming missiles, while you send missiles back at the enemy from the comfort of your units AMS defenses, it should be allowed and that's a viable tactic.

Here is an example that me and another 2 members of my unit just used. Two of us had Atlases with duel AMS and long range laser weapons. We held the front line while spotting for our LRM Stalker who stood behind us. We kept the incoming missiles off of us and him while he sent missiles back at everything we targeted for him.

One of us died but we took out 4 other mechs using this tactic. It's very impressive when people actually use the systems as they were intended

Edited by Yoseful Mallad, 28 October 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[Apnu]

LRMs are fine.

I run LRM based mechs often (usually a LRM30 of some sort). I like them. I have a positive W/L ratio and a positive KDR. Having said that, my LRM stats are between 30-40% right now. Because no other weapon system has so many counters.

Cover
ECM
AMS
Movement

On top of that, in PUG games, players won't lock targets. I see it all the time when observing other players. They never lock and get chewed up, they could get help from that LRM40 Timberwolf in the back, but they don't get it because they won't get locks for him and keep the enemy in the open to get rained upon.

Plus, PUGs won't prioritize ECM mechs. They'll play peekaboo all match with a DireWhale at 500 meters, and let the Raven, Commando, Cicada or DDC hang out and provide cover, neutering all the LRMs on the team.

Believe me, the lack of team spirit in PUG matches is a huge LRM counter.

Having said that, it is fun, when running LRMs and the 2xERLL RVN-3L runs off to hide in a corner an snipe, depriving his team of ECM cover and that slow as hell assault wanders into the open.

PUGs, they giveth and taketh away.

If someone's having problems with LRMs, they should go hug a rock. I rarely die from excessive LRM fire because I stay near cover. If I'm taking LRMs, I'm hustling to the nearest bit of cover to block them. Very easy to do. I wait for the LRMs to stop, and if they don't I'm fine sitting there letting terrain eat up ammo. That's banked gold late in the game.

[Axeface]

They should lower the lrm firing arc so cover is more effective, and positioning for the boat is more important.
I think that would work quite well.
And... yes, something needs to be done about LRM's.

People saying 'take cover' and all that crap, get a grip. There are many maps that simply dont have it, and if you are in a slow mech it can take all too long to find that spot.


EDIT: Oh, and I think making the noise from lrm hits and lowering the excessive screenshake a little might make them feel a lot less obnoxious.

Edited by Axeface, 28 October 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Mothykins]

Apnu, on 28 October 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

PUGs won't prioritize ECM mechs. They'll play peekaboo all match with a DireWhale at 500 meters, and let the Raven, Commando, Cicada or DDC hang out and provide cover, neutering all the LRMs on the team.

Believe me, the lack of team spirit in PUG matches is a huge LRM counter.

This.

Oh my god.

I had a UAV up, the ENTIRE ENEMY TEAM UNDER IT, all caps in the chat "KILL THE KITFOX, IT HAS ECM" and the LRM boats derp and both went for a jager.

I:

Last men standing where Said boats, and they got cut down by half a Firestarter.