332 replies to this topic

[Bill Lumbar]

Russ and crew..... thank you, this is all great news, and believe its a very good step in the right direction. I am looking forward to using all my PLasers now instead of passing on them in 90% of my load outs.
CLAN and IS

Thanks guys, keep up the great work!

Paul Inouye, on 30 October 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

I wasn't here...

Spoiler

NO.... Corruption!!!

[Kain Demos]

Yeonne Greene, on 30 October 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

All of the DPS values on this chart are wrong. Because lasers don't deal max damage instantaneously, you have to sum beam duration with weapon cool-down and divide the damage by that result to get actual DPS.

So, here are the fixed DPS values:

Inner Shere
Small = 1
Small pulse = 1.45

Medium = 1.28
Medium Pulse = 1.67

Large = 2.12
Large Pulse = 2.81

Clan
Small = 1.54
Small Pulse = 2.00

Medium = 1.69
Medium Pulse = 2.08

Large = 2.32
Large Pulse = 2.97

Nice to see some "advanced stats".

Every time I see someone raging after a game about "your team won because of your OP clan cheatmechs" or "you only did that much damage because of your OP clan cheatmech" I wish I could link them to this.

The DPS advantage of clan lasers is nonexistant. You take a heat penalty for much better range, that's all there is to it. Hit and run is the way to go and if you choose to engage and stay engaged within the IS laser boat's range with you clan laserboat you are going down.

Edited by Kain Thul, 30 October 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Cattra Kell]

Ed Steele, on 30 October 2014 - 03:57 PM, said:

So, NGNG probably already knows what the new hero mechs would be, so is it Grayson and Lori's mechs? That would be cool, the first Battletech novels I ever read were the Gray Death Legion ones.

I actually have no idea, im not given that sort of information. I was just pointing out canon information.

[Trumpetteer]

ExAstris, on 30 October 2014 - 04:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

Very much approve of the vast majority of the changes.

But as usual, a few concerns crop up. I hope my points won't be soured by the tone of previous commentators who gestured (rudely) in a similar direction.


ECM really is at the core of alot of the problems. Increasing BAP's cancellation range is a massive step in the right direction. It will remove ECM from the equation once the main battle is joined, but still have the strategic value of moving a fighting force around without detection, as well as being useful for scouts to avoid getting noticed. But now it won't be preventing brawlers from knowing what subsections to target, or which enemies are hurt mid-battle, or preventing LRMs from being used at all. Good moves in all.

Thus with less ECM impacting the main battle, LRMs become a target of concern since they'll be able to rain more often. That in conjunction with some chassis getting LRM quirks, thats how we arrive at the damage debuff for LRMs.


These moves make sense. But the root of the problem was still ECM, and the solution is still a reduction in the range at which is has its radar deprivation effects.

Why not significantly increase the range at which ECM mechs can be detected by normal sensors instead of hardcapping it at 200m? (or 250 if you have the right module). Why not let BAP's sensor extension also apply to its detection range of ECM? This way every mech can detect ECM mechs at 300-400m (or wherever). Then ECM's other effects can still be used during the battle (nerfing LRM clustering and lock times, slowing infogathering), unless another counter is applied or a BAP user gets a bit closer. This way its still an appropriate force multiplier against LRMs and information flow, but isn't overpowering by utterly denying both and controlling the information flow.

Or, from another angle, why not make BAP's cancelling effect simply that mech's normal detection range with LOS? Instead of cancelling mechs it doesn't know are around, it cancels all the ones it can see. This option is alot more binary than the previous one, but it does mean the stealth and force multiplier effects of ECM can be automatically cancelled by a mech that dedicates some of its loadout to boosted sensor effectiveness, but only while that mech is paying attention to the ECM unit. As soon as it looks away, other friendlies still suffer the confusion.

In either of those cases, the hard benefits given by ECM get softened by lessening that one aspect of ECM, reducing its radar deprivation capability.



In summary: The radar deprivation capability of ECM is what is so powerful, and its the thing that needs to be addressed in any changes made to information warfare. This patch is a huge move in the right direction since it does address this issue.

Personally, I'm a fan of just removing the stealth field entirely and then letting ECM be a force multiplier against LRMs by nerfing lock times and clustering bonuses. Then, if reduced lock-on ranges really are something that adds to the gameplay, implement a new method for achieving that (like stealth armor or modules that are the inverse of the sensor range booster).



addendum: LRMs will obviously have to be considered with any serious change to the flow of information. But there are other concerns about LRMs that are not being addressed that some of the more... fevered... comments were hinting at.

Currently, inner sphere mechs with large launchers are punished for having large launchers. If you have the choice between running a variant of a mech that has a 20 tube launcher and a 10 tube launcher for your LRM20, you'll take the latter every time. The microscopic delay between sub-volleys is a cost orders of magnitude below the clustering benefit you get from firing two sets of 10 missiles instead of one of 20.

For example, the catapults have 20 tube launchers, but taking an LRM20 is almost always a much worse idea than taking a 15. Only when firing at a large, slow target with both the clustering bonuses of artemis and tag stacking will you ever actually land the missiles at the edge of that cluster on target. Against every other target you're just wasting those missiles and punishing yourself with a longer reload time, a vastly heavier launcher, and worse ammo efficiency.

This is also why a huge chunk of LRM boats now are 6x5 mechs. The clustering bonus is maximized with the smallest launcher. So even though you're firing fewer missiles overall, more missiles are actually hitting their targets (both relatively and absolutely against most targets, you're only worse off against assaults).


I would think the best solution here is to normalize missile spread across all the inner sphere launchers (much like clan ones are due to firing in streams instead of packs). Other tweaks can be made to fire rate and heat if needed later on.






But to circle back so that this isn't all negative sounding.

ECM's radar deprivation zone being nerfed is a huge step in the right direction.
Pulse lasers having a more distinct flavor / niche is likable move.
IS AMS ammo buff is much appreciated.
Quirk system is a huge move in the right direction.

With ECM finally being addressed instead of being the Elephant in the Room, I may finally be able to return to financially contributing to MWO after my self-imposed restriction from doing so upon the introduction of ECM until it was reasonably dealth with.

Honestly, I don't think ECM slowing locktimes does jack. Unless you're in a map that has a lot of high cover.
Until they actually add stealth armor, leave ECM as it is.

Edited by Trumpetteer, 30 October 2014 - 04:40 PM.

[Mathium]

Will the swamp map be hitting the test server for bug hunting before hitting the live servers?

[Bill Lumbar]

Jody Von Jedi, on 30 October 2014 - 12:40 PM, said:

That would be my guess as well. Grayson and Lori.

I couldn't afford the Shadows while they was on sale for C-bills..... trying for 1 Griffins and 1 storm crow only was all I could afford even at 45% off.... But I do have 2 Locust in my bays, and both mastered, and at some point would like to pick up 3 shadow hawks also (another month or two of the painful grind at least).....


I would be very interested in the LOCUST hero for sure.... Shadow hawks are a wait and see till I master three of them and can afford them. I would say it is a safer bet with Lasers seeing some love on both Clan and IS side I would pick up the Griffin Hero before a Shadow hawk seeing how I have a Griffin and just the basics on it done and love playing in them so will pick up the other two when I can afford them. Sooner I can, the sooner I need to buy some more mech bays

I am very interested in the IS $80 pack but with C-bills earnings being a very big concern for me right now.... I have a hard time justifying such a purchase, because it is not cheap by any means, but it is a reasonable price vs. Clan packs and others before it, IMO. I have suggested my concerns in related threads regarding some very real numbers and lack of C-bill earnings. I love the new system in place, it is a step in the right direction.

Edited by Bill Lumbar, 30 October 2014 - 05:23 PM.

[Bandaron]

5LeafClover, on 30 October 2014 - 03:12 PM, said:

I agree with this.

Overall, I'm loving the November changes, they look fun and balanced. Genuinely excited to have a reason to take wub and like the idea of a range increase for BAP.

But: increasing the BAP area of effect by nearly 6 times!? BAP will just become compulsory rather than a role based decision. Somewhere around the 250m radius would have been plenty.

How about the radius of effect for a BAP just conveniently happens to be exactly the same as the optimal range of an AC20? You want to get in and break up the other team's ECM, you risk the full weight of displeasure that team brings to bear.

[bayoucowboy]

Paul Inouye, on 30 October 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

I wasn't here...

Spoiler

That's just wrong...

[ExAstris]

Trumpetteer, on 30 October 2014 - 04:38 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't think ECM slowing locktimes does jack. Unless you're in a map that has a lot of high cover.
Until they actually add stealth armor, leave ECM as it is.

Its definitely a significant factor.

There are situations where it isn't too big of a deal, say an assault in the open under a UAV no one shoots down. The extra 2 seconds it takes to lock him up won't change the fact that he dies in the next 20 from standing in the rain.

However, in situations where friendlies are peeking to take shots and you're trying to piggy back on their temporary locks, you just don't have enough time to get the lock and get missiles out. Similarly, when enemy mechs are peeking and you're trying to get the locks, every second counts because you need the lock and the travel time to both beat the target to getting back into cover. This gives every enemy a much larger window of safety for peeking.


But still, how useful that is (in conjunction with cancelling the clustering bonuses and slowing down target-info gathering speed), is utterly dwarfed by the effect of total radar deprivation. Not until that effect gets reined in will ECM have a place in information warfare (instead of just constituting 90% of it), and be a nice option (instead of a necessary tax).


Since the BAP change is effectively cutting into a moderate chunk of the radar deprivation range, this patch is moving us in the right direction. (but I would prefer a solution that doesn't just tax everyone else in addition to the ECM users, hence the suggestion to cut back the natural deprivation range, or eliminate it entirely and replace that effect with other game-systems/items)

[ShinVector]

Ahhhh.. Nothing about fixing Lasers Hit Reg in the november road map... Booo...

[Bill Lumbar]

BigBadVlad, on 30 October 2014 - 01:10 PM, said:

OK, maybe "even more deadly" wasn't the right choice of words...
and yeah 8 of anything pointed in my direction that goes pewpew or dakkadakka or fwooshfwoosh warrants caution at the least

Caution and respect good......FEAR/NERF to death....baaaaddddd......

[Grey Ghost]

Unless something has changed or I am just mistaken, doesn't cooldown only start after duration? Making all of the DPS & HPS statistics on that chart incorrect?

[Lily from animove]

ouch, have you compared clan and IS pulses? the small clan pulses are nearly IS medium pulses.
CLPL seem to get a bit op. takign their damage and duration into account.
And buffing CERML by 5m, is also a strange decision.

but it makes the nova appealing to slap 6 CERML and 6 CSPL on it, because you basically get a half heat volley for nearly the same damage.

the bap change is also nice.

[Macksheen]

Great stuff, keep tweaking! I'll reiterate a few things here and add some fresh stuff


I know you've picked some initial roles, but do take special care on the Hero mechs and ensure the quirks coincide with either their stock or suggested layouts. There's more leeway on things like the K2, CN9-A and SHD (the latter because of the champion builds) and drift from "lore", but if you're selling a mech for MC, do ensure you're hitting it with the right quirks. There are several like this - and some get odd buffs (AC20 on the Arrow? Really?)


There's a lack of ERLL out there, and tons of LL buffs. Consider taking a few mechs that are very similar (the CN9-AL and non-jumping WVR for instance) and swapping one from LPL to ERLL.


Ballistic range is generally only going to be meaningful on an AC20 or MGs; I wouldn't quirk range on any other model. Cooldown is far, far better in most cases as well - you may want to consider reducing that.


Consider increasing boosts to IS Streak range to a greater degree. It's only two tubes ... and you're only boosting it on one mech. Consider any of the Kintaros for streaks instead of LRMs.


I'm flumoxed on the Griffin which largely comes with PPCs and LRMs on the base models - things that are entirely ignored. I'm ok with this, as few folks run those but maybe shifting one to PPC or ERPPC use?


On some models, feel free to just go generic and meet in the middle. SRM4 5% range and missile 5% range? Maybe just do a 7.5% on all missiles as the difference isn't enough to really push someone to use 4s instead of 6s or streaks. You did this on the SHD-2K and that feels right.


Change either the VA or P Orion (one) to work with UAC or AC5. Those are the only ones if memory serves that can mount 2 ballistic. Swap one of the others to AC20.


Excellent news on the BAP; agree it may need to come in a bit - but more than 180m is awesome.


Glad to hear it on the AMS ammo. Woot!


LRM damage = great. Consider upping IS Streaks back to 2.5 and reducing shake/impulse from LRMs as well.


Love the Timber Wolf negative quirk removal. That's awesome.


I'd like to crush people with my Highlanders. Quirk them with greater landing ability and JJ thrust please, plus more damage done on a collision!


I don't see a Narc speed range. Gimme!


The HGH 732 gets a missile buff, but the 733 is the one with all the launchers. Consider moving the missile buffs from the 732 to the 733 and the laser buffs to the 732.


There seems to be lots of confusion on the CPLT movement nerfs - are those changes to the base, or quirks that are going away?

[Kain Demos]

Lily from animove, on 30 October 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

ouch, have you compared clan and IS pulses? the small clan pulses are nearly IS medium pulses.
CLPL seem to get a bit op. takign their damage and duration into account.
And buffing CERML by 5m, is also a strange decision.

but it makes the nova appealing to slap 6 CERML and 6 CSPL on it, because you basically get a half heat volley for nearly the same damage.

the bap change is also nice.

I wouldn't call it OP at all. Look a few pages back the DPS is nearly identical with the HPS being much higher.

[UrsusMorologus]

I dont see any time on the schedule for tweaking quirks. There are a lot of problems with the data thats been posted. I'm worried there wont be enough time to address even half of them.

[Cimarb]

UrsusMorologus, on 30 October 2014 - 05:35 PM, said:

I dont see any time on the schedule for tweaking quirks. There are a lot of problems with the data thats been posted. I'm worried there wont be enough time to address even half of them.

It takes a matter of seconds to tweak a quirk. All that is needed is the data, which they will have plenty of quite soon.

[UrsusMorologus]

Cimarb, on 30 October 2014 - 05:37 PM, said:

It takes a matter of seconds to tweak a quirk. All that is needed is the data, which they will have plenty of quite soon.

Hi its not a question of data adjustments its a question of reviewing some of the decisions

If it was simple they would have done it already yeah sport

[Livewyr]

Lasers: EXCELLENT!

ECM: Meh. (Would rather fix the problem in the first place instead of adding/buffing its counters.

[AlphaStruck]

As a long time AS7-K user is there any way we could get a rerole on those quirks since we seem stuck with this quirk thing? I was really hoping the wimpy weird cousin of the AS7 family would get something with real use to make up for the limited weapon slots and no ECM. PPC and guass is just not going to work out. No one with any time in a atlas is going to run a slow firing exploding weapon in the first to go ballistic torso.

I know you fall back on "well you get the other generic bonus quirks"... but this mech needed some serious love(and other are getting meta enhancements). Maybe we could get full generic boost or some AMS boosts to help it have a place as the first defensive mech.. MLAS/MPLS/AC20/LRM20 would also be something worth while to add. It has such limited weapon slots give it a decent weapon boost or just plain up the armor, that would be great.