117 replies to this topic

[RalphVargr]

Never mix MWO with reality. Unless alcohol is involved.

[Abivard]

Alek Ituin, on 31 October 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Having rifling in the barrel doesn't make something a Rifle. Unless suddenly something like a 155mm artillery piece is now a rifle.

Long Toms and Sniper Cannons are both classed as "Artillery Pieces" in lore. Not to mention Thumpers, which are basically snub-nosed field variants of a Long Tom. (FYI - Sniper Cannons are actually called "Sniper Artillery Pieces", but they're still cannons either way, same goes for Thumpers and Long Toms)

Also, the Long Tom and Sniper are technically "Guns", whereas the Thumper would be a "Howitzer". BT Lore doesn't really match up with reality too often.

Rifling does make a rifle. No matter the size, if it has grooves cut into the inside of the barrel in order to impart spin to a projectile, it is rifled, if it is rifled it may properly be called a rifle.

But in common Military usage Rifle refers to a shoulder fired rifled firearm.
Just as gun may refer to any type of artillery piece or crew served weapon, but it is improper to use the term 'gun' for any hand held firearm.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm not really sure how you expect light/medium mechs should handle getting shot by 2 gigantic ballistic weapons, unless the problem is more about the pinpoint damage converging on 1 spot.

The problem is medium mechs are the size of heavies or assaults with half the armor/structure. And realistically speaking, rescaling of those mechs is simply NOT going to happen.

So the only other way to make medium mechs more viable is to reduce the amount of pinpoint damage. Specifically that means nerfing the AC/20, gauss, and clan gauss. PPCs for the most part seem fine now.

Quote

So you'd penalize a stock build for a Mech specifically designed and built around those two AC/20's?

How 'bout no.

Sure, if a weapon is unbalanced I see no reason not to nerf it. Dual AC/20 and dual Gauss (especially clan Gauss) are both unbalanced right now. Medium mechs are super easy to hit with these weapons and dont have the armor to take the hits. Those weapons completely negate an entire weight class.

As for stock mechs being penalized, mechs get quirks now, so your concern isnt really valid. Even if the AC/20 is nerfed, quirks on mechs like the King Crab, will still make AC/20s worth using on certain mechs.
The important thing is just to eliminate the widespread abuse of those weapons... like right now clan gauss is abused on nearly every clan heavy and assault that can use it.

Edited by Khobai, 02 November 2014 - 01:20 PM.

[SaltBeef]

All autocannons , ( IS and Clan ) need to be burst like the clan versions with the ultras doing double the rate of fire with a chance of jamming. Only the LBX should fire both Cluster and Sabot Pinpoint rounds, (Both IS and Clan).

Edited by SaltBeef, 03 November 2014 - 09:19 AM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

SaltBeef, on 02 November 2014 - 08:53 PM, said:

All autocannons , ( IS and Clan ) need to be burst like the clan versions with the ultras doing double the rate of fire with a chance of jamming. Only the LBX should fire both Cluster and Sabot Pinpoint rounds, (Both IS and Clan).

If by 'sabot pinpoint rounds' you mean bursts of non-LBX/'standard' rounds, then I agree.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Because if they "got tough" on every weapon ppl QQed about we would HAVE no weapons

Khobai, on 02 November 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Those weapons completely negate an entire weight class.

So any weapon that can one shot a light should be nerfed till it cant?

How about no

[RazarG]

Does OP play MWO at all? Seriously, all the **** to whinge about and its about the most balance weapons systems in the game. Range and DPS is not OP. Requires skill, esp with Clan.

[Kjudoon]

There is a loud and influential clique who are trying to make MWO a twitchy esport shooter and sod the rest of us who signed up for more thinking mans simulator action like previous titles. This includes the alse premise that twitch, high end equipment and scripts are "skill" and so that is why ballistics are the sacred cow because they are unforgiving to anyone without redbull fueled full time job honed twitchy pavlovian reaction speed.

These elitists don't like us non elitists being able to threaten their "skill" if we don't use dakka.

[SaltBeef]

Neg , all standard auto cannons should be burst fire. LBX is a smooth bore cannon like a m1 abrams main battle tank main gun. I can shoot canister rounds and sabot rounds APFDS. LBX is supposed to be a better weapon system and all IS and Clans have them by the mid 3050's I believe. The current style inner sphere cannons pinpoint rounds should be the standard sabot rounds in LBX style autocannons, canister rounds are shotgun. We should be able to switch modes between ammo types with a brief wait for system to re-rack and rack new type of round. Standard auto canons AC10 CAC10 ,(Burst like the clans now) Ultra 2X rate of fire Clan or IS.

EXAMPLE RNDS RANGE
AC5 ***
CAC5 ***
UAC5 *** ***
CUAC5 *** ***


LBX5 standard *
LBX5 canister ::
CLBX5 standard *
CLBX5 canister ::

Edited by SaltBeef, 03 November 2014 - 12:33 AM.

[Tincan Nightmare]

SaltBeef, on 03 November 2014 - 12:23 AM, said:

Neg , all standard auto cannons should be burst fire. LBX is a smooth bore cannon like a m1 abrams main battle tank main gun. I can shoot canister rounds and sabot rounds APFDS. LBX is supposed to be a better weapon system and all IS and Clans have them by the mid 3050's I believe. The current style inner sphere cannons pinpoint rounds should be the standard sabot rounds in LBX style autocannons, canister rounds are shotgun. We should be able to switch modes between ammo types with a brief wait for system to re-rack and rack new type of round. Standard auto canons AC10 CAC10 ,(Burst like the clans now) Ultra 2X rate of fire Clan or IS.

EXAMPLE RNDS RANGE
AC5 ***
CAC5 ***
UAC5 *** ***
CUAC5 *** ***


LBX5 standard *
LBX5 canister ::
CLBX5 standard *
CLBX5 canister ::

Page 207 of Techmanual describes LBX cannons as smooth bore weapons that can switch between the cluster rounds and 'standard BURSTS', so I have no idea where your getting this single shot AP round from. In fact, all AC's are described as firing in bursts, using either high explosive ammo or AP rounds composed of depleted uranium, so shooting just a single round would be a step backwards.

[SaltBeef]

I am going off the design of the rounds They are clearly Sabot rounds with sabot petals for through barrel stability.

http://www.bing.com/...selectedIndex=0

Sabot tank round USA

http://www.bing.com/...electedIndex=17


Petal separation for penetrator

http://www.bing.com/...electedIndex=11

The drawing of the lubelin autocannon also has rifling's in the bore but smoothbore in the tech description.

Cannister round 120mm
http://www.bing.com/...electedIndex=30

Edited by SaltBeef, 03 November 2014 - 03:03 AM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Has anyone ever seen the loadouts of Paul and Russ? Are they perhaps Ballistic brawlers? So therefore they wouldnt wanna nerf their own loadouts? Sooo....biased much? Or is that not the case?

[Alexander MacTaggart]

SaltBeef, on 03 November 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

I am going off the design of the rounds They are clearly Sabot rounds with sabot petals for through barrel stability.

Except in BattleTech/Mechwarrior LBX Autocannons get to choose from 'buckshot' rounds and bursts of standard rounds.

All autocannons fire in bursts (it's right there in the name, automatic cannon) except for LBX ones loaded with LBX rounds.

[Jetfire]

I am pretty sure the only issue in ballistics right now is the clan gauss. I would suggest a longer CD to offset the lighter weight from the normal gauss.

[Clownwarlord]

Well, short answer is there are better builds out there then just the ballistic builds.

I know ballistic builds are good but so are lrm boats which have been rain of pain off and on every time you play as well as laser belching becoming a new fad. You still have the sniper builds with ERPPCs combo with a ballistic. Then you have mechs such as the Dire Wolf using dual ERPPC and dual Gauss. Now would you say that is a ballistic issue no not really it is more of a mech ability issue that will not and should not get changed. Just like a Stormcrow able to belch laser fire at you as well as some other clan builds should be in the game. You now see Inner Sphere mech using the belching builds and most likely will see more with the Nov. 4th patch because of pulse lasers. (laser vomit is the same thing as laser belching)

Now when you look at specifics like you are doing with the AC2 and AC20 for dps and alpha damage you also have to take into account they are like this to balance against the clan mechs and their abilities being far superior(mech builds, weapons, and so on). This is said to be changed as in the clan mechs being so much better with inner sphere quirks but there should and most likely still remain a gap between he two.

Now lets look at the AC2 ... doesn't it have a ghost heat penalty?
Now lets look at the AC20 ... doesn't it have a ghost heat penalty?

Lets look at clan ballistics ... doesn't it spread the damage unless it is gauss?
Lets look back at inner sphere ... here it is tricky ... you have now number of shots that add up to the total damage instead it is one shot for that number, which is a perk for the inner sphere against the clans (it literally is the only weapon type that can be agrued is better then the clans). With that though they have converge (taking mutliple guns and aiming at the same point) and with this and clans multiple guns are some times not converging on the same point you might see one shot sag a little another shot goes a little left and only the third shot hits right on. This also debunks the need to adjust ballistics. In truth ballistics feel right, maybe not in the fact they have a heat penalty but out side of that they are fine.

[SaltBeef]

No it is screwed up! Ballistics need to be fixed. Ultra AC5 ( IS ) pin point ( Clan ) Ultra AC 5 spread it is just weak they are supposed to be almost identical save for weight, crit space, and a little range. Poorly executued IMHO.
A lot of Clan mechs have less crits space due to FF, ENDO, FIXED EQUIPT.

Edited by SaltBeef, 03 November 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Tombstoner]

Alek Ituin, on 03 November 2014 - 09:40 AM, said:

Okay, if you don't understand this, you're hopeless and I have no further wish to speak with you:

All elephants are grey, but not all grey things are elephants.

Or in other words: All rifles have rifling, but not all things with rifling are rifles.


Does that make sense? Do you understand how that applies to our argument? I'm not even going to touch on the drivel you're spouting at the bottom, because that would entail me repeating myself for the umpteenth time. If I have to repeat this to you, I'm done for good.

O i get it. The system is how ever based on a set of categorical conditions codified in the early 20th century and hasn't kept pace with technology.

Not to pop your last fuse... but is an arrow fired from a bow a missile or do all missiles have guidance systems.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Tombstoner, on 03 November 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not to pop your last fuse... but is an arrow fired from a bow a missile or do all missiles have guidance systems.

Um, hate to break it to you but a missile is simply something launched through the air. Arrows are missiles, as well as spears, rocks, my mother's pans...

It doesn't have to have fins, a guidance system and a warhead to be a missile.

[SaltBeef]

Does not have to have air..... i saw a brown missile floating in a pool headed straight for Spalding!!

[Kain Demos]

I want the Gauss to become 4000 m/s and no more charge up. However, I also want the cycle time increased to 6 seconds.