281 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Once again, LRMs are too good against bad players and too bad against good players.

[Riptor]

I feel the need to butt in and clear some... misinformation about LRMs from a lore standpoint. Wich arguably has nothing to do with game balance in mind but i keep reading this nonsense that the LRMs in MWO just function like the ones in battletech.


First of all, LRMs where not guided. Absolutely not. They had no tracking abilities what so freaking ever. They could be used as an indirect fire weapon but you would allways target an area instead of a certain target.

Furthermore they where used mainly as a long range direct line of sight fire weapon, again.. no tracking involved whatsoever.

Thats the reason why "semi-guided" LRMs and NARC capable LRMs existed who had indeed a small amount of tracking ability resulting in more missles hitting the target... the emphasis being on "more" and not "all"


Now as they are to powerfull... yeah no... it has more to do with the fact that the current maps simply favour the gameplay of staying behind cover and lobbing LRMs. What it usually boils down to in PUG matches is that the team with most ECM wins because they can keep targeting locks longer.

Now while this all doesnt really imbalance team play that much... after all there are hard counters to most tactics around. In pug games it definatly ruins the fun.

This is why other games with vehicular combat only allow a limited amount of artillery.. like WoT or Warthunder. Because artillery or indirect fire will ruin the game for anyone else if there are to many.

Now in MWO this once again is a symptom of the free customisation system.. since you can slap on whatever you want onto a mech there is no way for the matchmaker to balance mechtypes beyond weightclass.

So in short:

The PUGers will ALLWAYS draw the short straw aslong as there is free customisation, because the matchmaker cannot possibly take into consideration every build possible.

So yeah... sucks to be them... but short of changing the very fundamentals of mwo there is little that can be done.

[mogs01gt]

Clan LRMs are easily destroyed by AMS and all LRMs are completely countered by ECM. I see no issues what so ever. The problem is if you are in lighter mechs who simply do not have the tonnage for AMS. This is a bit different of an argument.

[Krivvan]

mogs01gt, on 03 November 2014 - 01:30 PM, said:

Clan LRMs are easily destroyed by AMS and all LRMs are completely countered by ECM. I see no issues what so ever. The problem is if you are in lighter mechs who simply do not have the tonnage for AMS. This is a bit different of an argument.

Or the hardest counter of all, being in cover. When an LRM mech peeks and a direct fire mech peeks, the direct fire mech gets the shot whereas the LRM mech gets nothing. Spotters aren't helpful when they go down in seconds of long range team fire.

[Livewyr]

Dont LRM me please, on 01 November 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Hi

I am here to talk about LRMs. Before the clan update, LRMs were a good way to suppress enemies and take down lone wolves, and also great at fire support.

But now, ever since the glorious and wonderful clan update, implemented horribly and flawed, things are going downhill in gameplay.

- Regular LRMs are perfectly fine but CLRMs are literally primary armaments of most mechs these days, STOPPED READING

You joke yes? Come group with me and I will show you my bracket.

[Bongo TauKat]

Dont LRM me please, on 01 November 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

- Dire wolfs Roam the landscape, slaughtering anything in front of them. I swear, I have never see a dire wolf do less than 350 damage and I have a dire wolf, and I get a 500-1200 damage a match with dual gauss and dual PPC overpowered bullcrap. Dire wolfs are always MVP. You peek out, lose your chest or lose your shoulder, crawl back down, and die. Or, if your traveling in a map like Caustic Valley, they peek out and shoot you at your spawn, and then you have no were to escape. They also have extreme autocannon builds, some being known to rip a heavy mech's armor CT within 2-4 seconds.

With some of the people I play with we regularly watch Dire Wolves go down to multiple lights, mediums, and NARC/TAG kills. It's only powerful if you stand in front of it or get into a straight up gunfight but that's the same with most assaults.

[Lightfoot]

I have played MechWarrior for a long time back to MW2 and the reason you see so many LRMs is because all the long range weapons were nerfed to force short range dominance. MWO has no Gauss Rifle unless you use 2xGauss, which is too boring anyway. PPCs were made too slow to use as anti-LRM mech weapons 4 or 5 weeks ago.

The thing is that alot of mechs suck at close range. Hitboxes too big, weapons too fragile, wrong hardpoints. That can't be fixed, so these mechs will try to go long range and LRMs always work to some degree. Even if you can only carry a few LRMs you can wear those brawlers down to size and then punch them out with whatever your mech can carry since the odds are even now.

I am not going to bend your ear, but suffice to say Gauss and PPC counter LRMs by shooting LRM mechs as well as taking the load-out space that players are devoting to LRMs now. You can't force short range in MechWarrior without destroying all the other weapons. When there is no long range at all in MWO you will just have a vanilla-mode arcade shooter with robots.

So be happy that LRMs are still holding MWO gameplay together, because otherwise you would just have two uneven mobs of robots running at each other with pitch-forks.

[Sprouticus]

Dont LRM me please, on 01 November 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

No they aren't. You obviously haven't played the game for at least 10 minutes to realize that almost everyone is spraying bullshit CLRMs allover the place.

Translation:

I like to wander off on my own in an assault mech and dont like getting LRM ganked when a light comes up behind me and I dont see him.

I also refuse to put AMS on my mechs or get Radar Dep.

/end of thread.

[Novakaine]

Solution simple.
Stop noob playing and don't be the damn target.
In my slow arsed Stalker I never cross wide open spaces.
I'll cross in a herd or find an alternate route.
But stop blaming lrms it your own silliness that gets you killed.
Last Friday I one shotted a undamaged jager with just one salvo of lrm20's.
How?
I can only conclude he strip most his armor off to carry more ammo for his dual noob cannon.
Then he promptly for the rest of match raged about lrm's.
And when I suggested he actually put armor on his build.
He told me STFU and I must be a new no skills noob.
Really?
Stop being a noob plain and simple

[Metus regem]

Novakaine, on 03 November 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

Solution simple.
Stop noob playing and don't be the damn target.
In my slow arsed Stalker I never cross wide open spaces.
I'll cross in a herd or find an alternate route.
But stop blaming lrms it your own silliness that gets you killed.
Last Friday I one shotted a undamaged jager with just one salvo of lrm20's.
How?
I can only conclude he strip most his armor off to carry more ammo for his dual noob cannon.
Then he promptly for the rest of match raged about lrm's.
And when I suggested he actually put armor on his build.
He told me STFU and I must be a new no skills noob.
Really?
Stop being a noob plain and simple

Sounds like you hit a little too close to home...

Wonder if it was the same person that tried to face tank my Dire Wolf Prime (stock) in a Raven, then spent the rest of the match going on about Dire Wolves being OP.....

[Angel of Annihilation]

Dont LRM me please, on 01 November 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

Hi

I am here to talk about LRMs. Before the clan update, LRMs were a good way to suppress enemies and take down lone wolves, and also great at fire support.

But now, ever since the glorious and wonderful clan update, implemented horribly and flawed, things are going downhill in gameplay.

- Regular LRMs are perfectly fine but CLRMs are literally primary armaments of most mechs these days, and it's for a reason. Because they track down and kill people quicky (in bulk), and they spam the living **** out of your screen. It is also harder to escape CLRMs because they go over cover sometimes. If one person says "IS LRMs are better" I'm going to do something violent because that is the biggest lie I have heard in my life. Nothing better than getting spammed by a guy mashing his LMB button looking at your general direction, not trailing or even seeing you in some circumstances. LRMs are meant to be fire support, not the god damn most popular weapon.

- Dire wolfs Roam the landscape, slaughtering anything in front of them. I swear, I have never see a dire wolf do less than 350 damage and I have a dire wolf, and I get a 500-1200 damage a match with dual gauss and dual PPC overpowered bullcrap. Dire wolfs are always MVP. You peek out, lose your chest or lose your shoulder, crawl back down, and die. Or, if your traveling in a map like Caustic Valley, they peek out and shoot you at your spawn, and then you have no were to escape. They also have extreme autocannon builds, some being known to rip a heavy mech's armor CT within 2-4 seconds.

- What I also find very humorous is that the Timber Wolf is going 81kph. A heavy mech going 81kph. Also, the medium for the clans, the Stormcrow specifically goes 97kph. So what happens is all these outclassed Inner sphere mechs are slower, weaker (XL engines) or outgunned by their clan counterparts.

- The maps are seriously messed up. Too many invisible barriers on the maps, where I see air it becomes some kind of forcefield. Also, when I'm running from LRMs (Clan to be exact) running blindly and trying to find "cover", I step into some kind of invisible barrier on the ground, causing me to die horribly. Thanks PGI.

- And artillery and air strikes are out of control. Can't play a match without getting hammered by 3 of them. "Move out of the way!" No, Inner sphere assaults are too slow to move out of the way.

The worse part about all of this is that this is the new norm. People now think that their Dual Gauss and Dual PPC, or LRM boat Stormcrows are completely balanced because well, they are right. A small sliver of players use Inner Sphere mechs now because of the clan Meta. I remember about a year ago when it took FOREVER to die. Like, seriously, mechs took enormous beatings. But now, if you peek over a hill, GET READY! CLRMS AND DUAL GAUSS HEADED YOUR WAY! You die instantly or become severely damaged in every or almost all situations because of these clan monsters carrying 2x The Inner sphere weapon capability but having the same amount of armor.

All I'm saying is that the gameplay has become nothing but LRM warfare and "Who can alpha someone first", kinda like CoD. It should be fixed or some alternatives must be made because there are too many LRM boats and Dire Wolf "Assasins" out there.

Please, fix my favorite game PGI.

IS LRMs are better.

Sorry had to go there.

All missiles arriving in one big lump is just hands more devastating that the streaming of Clan LRMs and it is insane just how good AMS is at shooting down Clan LRM. Honestly probably twice as many missiles get shot down. I have even seen 1 AMS take out a full 10 spread of Clan LRMs without blinking an eye.

Your also wrong about the Dire Wolf. Sure they can be devastating but just as often they end up being an easy kill. Also they tend to do alot of damage because they just sort of spam out AC fire into the general direction of the enemy and usually that fire tends to spread all over the surface of their targets, often without killing them.

Map I tend to agree with. Nothing more annoying than having a clear shot but it gets hit on some invisible terrain. Also the design on some is horrible. For example I fricken hate Alpine because that damn mountain is such a dominating feature that you almost have to take it and hold it if you can. So tired of fighting on that mountain.

I also agree on Arty and Air. After getting caught up in the forth or fifth one in any given fight, it starts to get old very quickly. Arty and Air should be role warfare specific, meaning only Lights and some of the fast recon type mediums like the Cicada and Ice Ferret should be able to use air or arty. That would fix the issue.

As far as the meta, don't agree here. Dual Gauss can be beastly but they aren't as good as people make out, Also you can't do dual gauss on a Stormcrow or really any Clan mech except for the Dire Wolf. Dual ER PPC are very hot and again only the heaviest Clan mechs can mount them and enough DHS to keep them cool (Yeah you can mount them on an Adder or Kit Fox but again trust me, they aren't that great on those mechs). They are not all that effective on a Stormcrow. Also don't really see an issue with an LRM Boat Stormcrow as there are tons of mediums that can play the LRM boat on the IS side as well.

Also I guess I don't play the same game. LRMs, at least until tomorrow with the BAP upgrade, have a great hard counter in ECM. Also you have the radar deprivation module available which is a great help in avoiding LRMs. Just break LOS and they lose lock. Hard Cover works as well. Also as far as who can alpha most, hardly. Good tactics combined with a good build that allows for relatively cool sustained firepower can typically beat hard alpha especially if it alpha is at the expense of heat.

So I guess to conclude this, you do have a few valid points but most of what your complaining about really isn't an issue, at least not in my eyes.

[Kain Demos]

Warhawk does Dual Gauss easily as well. Many people forget that.

You can do it in the Timberwolf but I've never seen it in a game. To get a respectable amount of ammo you just have to remove the armor from the arm that isn't carrying a single thing.

Edited by Kain Thul, 03 November 2014 - 02:36 PM.

[Mcgral18]

PappySmurf, on 03 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

As usual the crybaby LRM/CLRM boats want to dominate matches with missile spam and of course they don't want there missile meta changed. If 1 player in a match is proficient with the R button to target enemy mechs and he has 2-8 missile boats on his team he can in fact target every enemy player and the missile boats on his team will annihilate the enemy team is a short time I have seen this a thousand times in PUG and Group play and it needs to stop in MWO gameplay.

You want tactical gameplay but you wont give up your magic R button that alerts your whole team of a target and he gets hammered by missile spam in favor of a system where using the R button to target only allows you to target lock 1 player at a time and not your whole team unless a command mech is in the battle then the whole team gets all the target locks.

Have you tried not allowing the LURMs to dominate you?

That's how you die to them. You do nothing. That's the only way to die consistently to them.

If you do happen to get caught in the open, torso twist; use a shield arm, until you reach cover. It's not that difficult.

[DONTOR]

As soon as I saw a Nerf LRM thread started by someone named " Dont LRM me Please" I had to read it! Did not dissapoint, hilarious as expected. LRMs are bad, and are the easiest weapon system to aviod / counter.

[Aiden Skye]

This was a fun read.

[Mercules]

Yoseful Mallad, on 03 November 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

To those saying we don't use C3 in the game... Sure we do. In Beta PGI even said it was a sort of built in C3 that allowed all units on a team to see what a spotter targeted.

Got a quote? BTW, in Beta PGI also said the "Scout" tree of Role Warfare would allow ECM to make Ghost Targets... No Scout Tree no Ghost Targets. We don't have C3... go read the rules for C3 and Indirect Fire. We are using normal everyday targeting and indirect fire for LRMs.

Riptor, on 03 November 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

Thats the reason why "semi-guided" LRMs and NARC capable LRMs existed who had indeed a small amount of tracking ability resulting in more missles hitting the target... the emphasis being on "more" and not "all"

Actually, it could allow all... BTW. ALL missiles don't hit the target now, If you look it tracks BY MISSILE and usually 60% of them "miss".

[orcrist86]

Argument:
AMS doesn't work because not enough people use it
Fix:
Equip AMS

Argument:
LRMS are spammy nob weapons and kill me when I leave cover
Fix:
don't leave cover, missile launcher are multiple launch systems by design

Argument:
Clan LRMS are OP because of the stream effect the make seeing difficult
Fix:
Equip AMS, clan LRMS are weak against it; or radar derp, or stay next to an ECM mech

Argument:
LRM indirect fire is OP, nerf line of sight, no target data sharing
Fix:
Stop standing on someone elses LOS, indirect fire is supposed to go over things

Argument:
LRMS are a no skill weapon
Fix:
Then you better start using them because you failed to do all the above.


I hate these LRMS are OP threads. LRMS are getting a 9% damage nerf tomorrow. Most mechs can't equip 9% more LRMS so things should be better for everyone. Not saying that LRMS aren't annoying... but that is their role. Harassment and long range target softening, with a few other advance roles like scouting and area denial.

[Mercules]

PappySmurf, on 03 November 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

As usual the crybaby LRM/CLRM boats want to dominate matches with missile spam and of course they don't want there missile meta changed. If 1 player in a match is proficient with the R button to target enemy mechs and he has 2-8 missile boats on his team he can in fact target every enemy player and the missile boats on his team will annihilate the enemy team is a short time I have seen this a thousand times in PUG and Group play and it needs to stop in MWO gameplay.

You want tactical gameplay but you wont give up your magic R button that alerts your whole team of a target and he gets hammered by missile spam in favor of a system where using the R button to target only allows you to target lock 1 player at a time and not your whole team unless a command mech is in the battle then the whole team gets all the target locks.

1. I don't typically play in mechs running LRMs. Heck I play Commandos/Locusts/Firestarters and such.

2. I don't die to LRMs even when I do play my Jaggers.

3. Your magical scenario of someone hitting R and killing the enemy team with LRMs doesn't happen all that frequently. Yes, mechs will get killed that way but a team heavy on LRMs with a few brawlers will win against a bunch of bad players or lose to a competent group when the faster mechs flank the LRMs and stop their firing while the rest of the team mops up their only defense.

[no one]

Commandos are Over Powered!

Spoiler

Oh ****, is this the wrong thread? Whoops! See, this is what we call anecdotal evidence.
If you 'can' do well or poorly in a 'Mech / weapon then someone, somewhere has screenshots.
Don't use them as an argument, because they aren't one.

Personally, I think LRMs are decent. Maybe a tad slow.
No, really! There are a lot of contributing factors to why you'll run into matches where they utterly ruin your day but the weapons themselves aren't in a bad place. Other times they suck twice as hard for the person using them. So what is it about them?

Issues include -
a - Time to kill, overall is pretty low in MWO, only partly due to tripled rate of fire / doubled armor.
Huge team sizes, shared sensor systems and a lack of in game VOIP creates a situation where PUG pilots have a powerful incentive to not be the first person sticking their neck out. LRMs let people hang back and feel like they are fighting / getting assists / flanking rewards even when they're mostly just hammering terrain. So frequently when you come out to play you get to be everyone's sweetheart.
Note : If you are 'hill sniping' and aren't piloting a Gauss Jagger, you're probably doing it wrong.
Going over a hill exposes you to everything on the far side. Go around hills. See 'Z'.
b - Maps where LRM cover exists only in the far corners of disconnects-ville. I'm looking at you, Alpine peaks!
c - The underdeveloped, overcompensating sensor system in MWO. This system would be a good start -
http://mwomercs.com/...99#entry3417099
Add to that a command-module-as-relay-hub for current shared targeting / last known enemy positions / etc data.
Add to that TAG that only works for Artemis launchers.
d - Heat system. Hoo boy, the heat system really makes missiles a thing. I even made a thread about it before I realized this is all just pissing into the wind. Ahem. Anyway; high heat cap, slow dissipation favors missiles a lot. Launchers are medium weight / heat weapons, so on heavier 'Mechs you can leverage the best firepower out of them before running into heat / weight limits.
e - There's more, but I'm bored now. It's just way more complex than "buff" or "nerf" and PGI has yet to show any capacity or willingness to handle anything as such.

So yes, LRMs are situationally either great or terrible weapons! That won't change so long as the situation doesn't change.

z - Players, fellow forumites. Yes, you! Negative experiences tend to impact us more than positive ones, and LRMs are one of those things that gives you a protracted reaming from time to time. Taking a dual Gauss shot sucks, but it doesn't have you chanting "****, **** ****" for a minute and a half while you frantically try to back-peddle through an enemy commando that's legging you.

Play nice, die well. Use cover.
Or just go balls out in your unarmored suicide splat locust.
Seriously, have fun. No one is watching you.

Edited by no one, 03 November 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Dont LRM me please, on 01 November 2014 - 04:03 PM, said:

- Dire wolfs Roam the landscape, slaughtering anything in front of them. I swear, I have never see a dire wolf do less than 350 damage and I have a dire wolf, and I get a 500-1200 damage a match with dual gauss and dual PPC overpowered bullcrap. Dire wolfs are always MVP. You peek out, lose your chest or lose your shoulder, crawl back down, and die.

I, too, am frustrated by this. The only ways to counter DW's are to play extremely defensively and hope you can peek shoot before they retaliate, or hope that your team has their poop together and out-maneuver and focus fire them (which is very rare).

A well set up DireWolf is an insanely hard nut to crack.

As for ze missiles, I'm... OK with LRM's the way they are, but their abundance does contribute towards forcing most games into stand-off fights. LRM boats can be easily avoided if you're near cover, but are a problem for brave people.