179 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 06 June 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

I have been playing an assault lately and I can't tell you how frustrated I get when I see my light/medium lance run backward to "escort me". Instead of scouting ahead, or attacking the enemy, they sit there staring at me as any initial advantage they could have created with their speed/spawn position slips away. What makes it worse, is that most of the time these lights and mediums have short range weapons. Even if we got attacked the enemy is almost always doing it from outside their range.

I want my teammates out there doing stuff. Not standing around hoping for someone to carry him.

On the RCN B4 Spawn Point, it's almost always other Lights or fast Mediums besetting the Assaults before they can clear to cover, thus those short range Lights are pretty much exactly what you want to help keep your Fatty from getting wolfpacked.

Better yet, instead of "escorting", it allows you to hold B4 if you choose, till the rest of the unit can join you. Not every fight is won at the Citadel.

As I said, I fully agree with your post about the D2 spawn. But my subjective experience is the B4 one is a whole nother kettle of fish.

[MikeBend]

The only sane thing a team can do, if the assaults spawn in b4 on River City, is regroup on assaults and hold that position. If you nascar, you are down an assault lance.

[Johny Rocket]

Hi Bishop.

One of the best matches I have played was when a Kingcrab and my Misery got left behind at the furthest cap. We used Voip and supported each other. bethebestkiller got ignored by the whole team because you can tell he is young. We went in the tunnel and I let him call it. We killed a few at all 3 entrances then went out under the platform.

Moral of the story, no one really screwed up. Normal for for pugs, everyone knew their job and was doing it.

We used serious team play to eat them with firepower. Both knew the map and where to stand. I got more than him because my Bug Zapper build is a face eater.

Edit: when I say best match Im not talking just about the score Im talking about fun. 12:54 of wicked indulgence.

Edited by Tractor Joe, 06 June 2015 - 02:33 PM.

[Fleeb the Mad]

I find a fair amount of irony in this thread. Don't you?

I'll concede that in a game where every mech is intended to be equally valuable to the team, the assault mech isn't entitled to other players limiting their choices to run interference for them. It's not a fast mech's job to screen a fatlas moving to cover.

But...if you're on that soapbox, why exactly curse that assault being in the rear? Is it their job to be up front tanking damage for smaller mechs with less armour and drawing attention? That opinion seems to be also entitled and equally flawed. If all things are equal no other player has to do anything for your sake, regardless of their choice of mech.

Let's get a couple things straight. Teamplay is everyone's job in this game, and people who don't do it for whatever reason are failing at the primary mechanism to achieve victory. In this River City scenario, if you abandon slow elements of the team to be able to rush enemy stragglers, it's a calculated risk. You'd better Get Them. If you can't be sure you're going to bag an enemy assault or two for the sacrifiice of your own team's assaults, then you're doing your team a disservice by not running out to engage and slow down the enemy fast elements instead. Is everybody needed to rush ahead? Is everyone even going to get there before the window of opportunity is lost?

Mobility's value is not limited to being able to cover the distance to the other end of the map the fastest. Mobility is about being able to move and change position quickly and sometimes, honestly, the best thing you can do is to use it to defend people who need defending in that brief window of vulerability and then move somewhere else quickly.

Edited by Fleeb the Mad, 06 June 2015 - 02:31 PM.

[Roadkill]

Jman5, on 05 November 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

The B4 spawn is considerably worse than the D2 spawn.

First, the D2 spawn's primary threat comes from B2, which is farther away than the D4 spawn is from B4. It simply takes longer for those Mechs to come under attack. The difference is measured in seconds, but it isn't insignificant.

Second, the D2 spawn has a straight shot to get to cover. If you turn and move immediately upon drop, you can get across D3 to support before even enemy lights can get close enough to be a threat. The B4 spawn has buildings, blast shields, and the drop ship itself that all hinder assaults that drop there in their run to find cover. They're virtually guaranteed to take fire as they cross B3.

Third, enemies attacking Mechs that are leaving B4 have cover from the friendlies supporting them due to angles. Enemies attacking Mechs that are leaving D2 have to expose themselves to return fire due to the fact that most fights in River City center around the citadel. The team that starts along the D-line can get to the fight area faster than the team that starts along the B-line. The E3 Mechs spawn in position to provide cover fire for fleeing D2 Mechs... they don't even have to think about it.

But to leave the specific map issues and address the basic point... a Dire Wolf can get left behind on most maps if the team NASCARs. They just can't keep up if the rest of the team insists on pushing the issue. Some maps are worse than others, but I find that most of the time (not always, but most of the time) when some assault driver complains it was a legitimate complaint.

The more mobile Mechs should work with the team, and that often means that they need to cover the assaults. If instead they push forward and their own team's assaults get overrun from behind, that's almost always the mobile Mechs' fault.

I primarily play mediums, though my second most played class is assault. I see this issue from both sides, and in my experience the problem is usually caused by the more mobile Mechs not paying attention to the mini map and leaving their assaults behind.

The ironic part of it all is that if the mobile Mechs would move toward the assault lance instead of always going counter-clockwise, at least half of the time they would end up with an 8-on-4 against the enemy lights that are trying to rush the assaults.

[Lord Perversor]

Jman5, on 05 November 2014 - 04:57 PM, said:

People who play with me, know I have very little patience for players who get "left behind" as the team pushes aggressively. Despite what many people say over and over, 9 times out of 10 players are not left behind. They stay behind either by stopping in their tracks while the rest of the team moves, or by taking round-about paths that make keeping up impossible.

You see this sort of blame-game coming from a lot of assaults particularly direwolves who would like you to believe that they are physically incapable of keeping up with a standard slow-push. I get told I simply don't get it since I play a hunchback, so let's load up the trial dire-wolf and look at a common situation of assault-angst: The River City Skirmish spawn by the Boat.



Spawning there let's see how long it takes to get to the citadel bend at d4 in a direwolf without speedtweak.



About 1 minute +/- 10 seconds in the slowest mech without speed tweak.

Let's look at where you typically see players that spawn by the boat at the 1 minute mark. This is a real world game where our banshee buddy is taking his first shot at the direwolf.



Wow, he's only gone about half the distance we did in our test and he probably has speed tweak too.

As you can see there can be a huge difference in distance covered by just moving a little more efficiently. Also never forget that you are an assault pilot weilding a ridiculous amount of firepower. Sure, I may be able to get a few shots on you, but you've got a 60 damage alpha to answer back as you move. Too often people seem to either stop and shoot, or just straight up die without firing a shot.

So next time you load up your big-bad-direwolf and you find yourself in a tricky spawn, don't just give up and say it's impossible. Think about how you can get to where you need to be faster.

And stop blaming your team for leaving you behind.

Not entirely true.

1st and foremost i can agree with most of your points i'm a rather agressively pilot and i always find myself quite ahead of my whole team even piloting assaults mechs 80% of the time but..

Big BUT.

There is a delay in loading screens for some players.

I just ignored this possiblity until a few weeks ago when i had the opportunity to start up my Ice ferret run straight tru cave on frozen city and meet an enemy mech standing still (Dced? ) on their spawning point. i just aimed at the red box and fire my large lasers with such a luck they both landed on the cockpit. a 2nd alpha and the mech was wasted.

Then the enemy pilot complained he went down even BEFORE finish his start up sequence (mind you there was a panther at my side so it was related to the opposing pilot comp)

This may be behind some of those issues about Assaults left behind, wich should affect mostly people with lower end computers.

[Khobai]

Ive always felt that the direwolf needs a +5% max speed quirk on one of its side torsos. obviously one of the side torsos without a lot of hardpoints; The direwolf prime or direwolf-w left side torsos would be good candidates for a +5% max speed buff (they each only have 1M hardpoint). At least then youd have the option of sacrificing ballistic firepower for better speed.

Edited by Khobai, 06 June 2015 - 03:15 PM.

[ArchAngelWC]

Wintersdark, on 05 November 2014 - 05:12 PM, said:

While I support this post entirely, I'll make a couple comments:

Comment The First: You used the smallest, easiest to navigate map as an example. A direwolf should NOT be "left behind" on this map unless the whole team is doing that horribly awful circle-racing game, in which case there's little you can do but take cover and engage about half way around. On Alpine, Being Left Behind on charlie spawn is a very real and potentially unavoidable issue.

HOWEVER! A caveat to the above is that since the Solo queue has been changed to spawn all the assaults+heaviest heavy together, you should be close to the slowest members of your team - move efficiently, and it's highly unlikely you'll be far from the other assaults unless you had the misfortune to spawn alongside a bunch of 80+kph assaults who tear off immediately.

Comment The Second: Absolutely in support of your overall point - The key is to understand your mech, it's limitations, and the situation.

Spawned at Charlie on Caustic? Yeah, you book ass immediately towards the bulk of your team. The most important point to keep in mind is this:

If you return fire against a lance peeking over the ridge near you, you will die. Fast mechs that spawn opposite you can and often will peek over that ridge. Due to the Direwolf's limited torso twist, in order to return fire against them you need to stop progress towards your teammates. Doing so ensures you'll be left behind.

You're in an assault mech, and they're lighter, faster mechs. You can take the pokes, just run to your team, THEN repay them for their impudence.

Ultimately, in 90% of circumstances:

If you got left behind, isolated and killed? It's your own damn fault; and not because you picked a slow mech.

Typically on this map and really most PGI maps the grand Circlejerk is what happens....
Want to know how me and my Direwhale usually die....
Checking their circle so our guys can catch up with their flank lol

Edited by ArchAngelWC, 06 June 2015 - 04:59 PM.

[Zoid]

How long does it take for a light to sneak up and start shooting your back armor? About 30 seconds, less if they spawned close. That's why the DWF pilot is turning around, you can't just let a pair of lights with ERLL tear a hole in your backside.

This is just stupid. I've seen entire teams die within 2 minutes and you're telling me that taking 1:15 just to get to cover is fine? MOST games are done in 5 minutes or less.

Oh and let's not forget just straight math. If your team is running away in circles, you cannot keep up. There is simply no way for a 54 kph 'mech to keep up with an 89 kph 'mech. Eventually you're going to get left behind.

EDIT:
Just in case it wasn't clear just how stupid this is, I took an ERLL Raven into the test grounds and got to where I'd be shooting you in that nice, soft back armor within 28 seconds, from the FAR spawn. That was going through the cover of the city too. A Stormcrow took 38. So that's how long you have to get to cover before you start eating 40+ alpha strikes to the back.

Assault pilots need to try to keep up. The team needs to try to support them. Both are to blame when someone gets left behind but usually one is more to blame than the other. If you aren't getting left behind it's probably the simple rule of "I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun the guy next to me". In other words, you're part of the problem because you most likely left behind the assault that was getting chewed up while declaring he should have moved faster.

Edited by Zoid, 06 June 2015 - 06:32 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

You can change the engine in the dire whale?

sweet!

[Absurdia]

When i have to cross the river on a slower mech, what usually happens is rest of the team gets in position behind the citadel and get ready for the long dragged out peeking match. Watch my lance turn into a waste of tonnage and do nothing. Maybe fire a couple of shots if the other team gets into their line of sight. So my mech gets there without its armor or weapons, if it can get there at all.

I have seen what a single ecm light, or a bit of cover fire from that position can do for the lowly fat ones crossing the river.I have also been on the other side cheving on the back torso of the poor dire trying to run away. It ıs really easy to ambush the lance crossing to the other side.

But all this will change when the map updates, i hope.

More to the point of the topic:
1) I'm not saying the team should babysit the assaults all day everyday but give your teammates cover when you can. Your teammate can save your life back at some point.
2)Keeping up with the bulk of your team should not be that hard. If the other dire could do it, so could you.

[SushiSalad]

Too much nerfing has basically made the Dire Wolf a useless brawler as compared to the actual Dire Wolf or Great Death in MW world. Why not just stop all the nerfing and buffing and keep the Mechs as it is as per the MW technical readouts. There is no such thing as nerfing and buffing in the MW world.

As for balancing the game, let the players hone their mech control skills and learn to be tactical instead of rushing like they are in a nascar race to kill off the assaults mechs which are basically are so fragile that they died within 2-3 mins after engagement in a battle. This is really ridiculous. I am not sure what PGI is thinking. For more $$$$ from the few who are willing to splurge? or for more players playing this game?

[Elizander]

Light lance on the edge and assault lance on the opposite end. Light lance charges, medium lance in the middle follows while at the far end you have a 48-64 kph group that has trouble turning and climbing slopes catching up to 90kph-150kph mechs that already have a lead in distance.

Assaults can get left behind especially when overeager light pilots are chasing down the tail end of the enemy team. There is no guarantee either that your mediums are moving at 90 kphs and some can be fairly slow.

The more annoying part is that people look 'shocked' when they realize half the team wasn't with them and rage on chat. They look dumber because it's obvious that they never even bothered to look at the map all game to see if the team was spread out or not because they are too busy leading the imaginary charge on their wooden horse stick.

[Eider]

Funny post but i think it needs to be mentioned that being a light doesnt mean you should rush to split from the team trying to kill d/cs and then getting killed. Also not everyone has JJ so assaults can get left behind if people nascar like dolts.

[drinniol]

Has anyone mentioned that load times come into play at the start of the match? Most players that 'need to get a move on' are probably looking at the loading screen.

[Sarlic]

Soon this all will be over. And i disagree with the TS and the little bright one who says that all Assaults apart from the DWF needs to be faster then 60 km/h>.

Wat.

/thread.

Edited by Sarlic, 06 June 2015 - 11:30 PM.

[Shredhead]

drinniol, on 06 June 2015 - 11:20 PM, said:

Has anyone mentioned that load times come into play at the start of the match? Most players that 'need to get a move on' are probably looking at the loading screen.

And that's entirely their own fault. Just don't play this game on a potato, and if you do, take a faster mech.
We had a game last night against some SJR and an EMP player on RCN. We noticed in time that several Whales spawned in D2, we had the sand bank spawn. We turned around to cover their approach across. What happened? One of the whales decided to stay in D2 even when all of his buddies had made it over to the citadel safely. You can't fix stupid. The game was still quite good, it went 8-12, but could have been so much better if that one whale pilot actually knew what he was doing.

[Ultimax]

Shredhead, on 07 June 2015 - 05:07 AM, said:

And that's entirely their own fault. Just don't play this game on a potato, and if you do, take a faster mech.
We had a game last night against some SJR and an EMP player on RCN. We noticed in time that several Whales spawned in D2, we had the sand bank spawn. We turned around to cover their approach across. What happened? One of the whales decided to stay in D2 even when all of his buddies had made it over to the citadel safely. You can't fix stupid. The game was still quite good, it went 8-12, but could have been so much better if that one whale pilot actually knew what he was doing.

I agree, that sometimes it's their own damn fault.


On the other hand, your team purposefully tried to cover their approach across - so obviously it's also not as cut and dry as "Assaults need to move faster".



So as with all things, the answer is a bit in the middle.

The teams that run off and lose their assaults have failed, and assaults that don't get moving ASAP to make the most of the cover fire their team is providing have also failed.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 June 2015 - 07:04 AM.

[Fate 6]

*unless the map is alpine

[Fate 6]

Roadkill, on 06 June 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

I find that most of the time (not always, but most of the time) when some assault driver complains it was a legitimate complaint.

I find the opposite is true, and it also happens more often when our team wins than loses. Friendly assaults die because they lingered too long, entire enemy team dies because our heavies/mediums recognized an opportunity, friendly assaults tell us we're bad for leaving them. In group queue it's even worse because someone always goes "way to leave the assaults" when their group brought 2 Stalkers and our group brought 2 Dire Wolves and our Dire Wolves killed the entire enemy team.