307 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Hornviech, on 10 May 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

That is wrong!
According to the technical readouts you have fixed items these are shown in the base config but everything what is shown in the omnipods is removeable.
This is also stated in the omnimechrules.
PGI just changed the rules only for this mech because it is soooo overpowered.

See, this is the part you're missing. In TT there is only ONE base config.

In MWO, every config is it's own base config. So the pods come stock with JJs, and thus the JJs are hardwired.

[Uncle Totty]

IraqiWalker, on 10 May 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

Martian, there are plenty of pieces that come fixed with omni tech. I think you might be misunderstanding some things. What comes stock with the pod is hardfixed, and can't be removed. For example, the JJs on the S config, for the purposes of this game.

In other words: He KNOWS this is not how it works in TT. (Well about damn time.)

[CyclonerM]

Just to be clear, i think the difference is actually between "variant" and "configuration". In TT, each OmniMech chassis has a single base "variant" and A, B,C etc. are all alternate "configurations" aka different sets of weapons and equipment that can be quickly switched in and out of the base hardwired structure.

[IraqiWalker]

CyclonerM, on 11 May 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

Just to be clear, i think the difference is actually between "variant" and "configuration". In TT, each OmniMech chassis has a single base "variant" and A, B,C etc. are all alternate "configurations" aka different sets of weapons and equipment that can be quickly switched in and out of the base hardwired structure.

You are right on the money

[CyclonerM]

Thanks

I just made that clarification because i am nitpicky for this kind of things and in those two names there is the whole difference between a BattleMech and an OmniMech.

[Lugh]

I love JJs as a whole, so this doesn't bother me at all. In fact it makes the TBR even more effective.

[Tywren]

IraqiWalker, on 10 May 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

Martian, there are plenty of pieces that come fixed with omni tech. I think you might be misunderstanding some things. What comes stock with the pod is hardfixed, and can't be removed. For example, the JJs on the S config, for the purposes of this game.

Except thats not the case with JJs. It's equipment that can be swapped in and out of a given config, just like weapons. For instance Aidan Pride had his techs add jump jets to the Timberwolf he was piloting at Tukayyid, because he was used to piloting a Summoner, and wanted that added manuverability.

[Uncle Totty]

Tywren, on 13 May 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

Except thats not the case with JJs. It's equipment that can be swapped in and out of a given config, just like weapons. For instance Aidan Pride had his techs add jump jets to the Timberwolf he was piloting at Tukayyid, because he was used to piloting a Summoner, and wanted that added manuverability.

I have done this with him before. Trust me, he will NEVER stop.

[IraqiWalker]

Tywren, on 13 May 2015 - 04:20 PM, said:

Except thats not the case with JJs. It's equipment that can be swapped in and out of a given config, just like weapons. For instance Aidan Pride had his techs add jump jets to the Timberwolf he was piloting at Tukayyid, because he was used to piloting a Summoner, and wanted that added manuverability.

Here, this'll help you get caught up:

Spoiler

IraqiWalker, on 10 May 2015 - 10:10 PM, said:

Martian, there are plenty of pieces that come fixed with omni tech. I think you might be misunderstanding some things. What comes stock with the pod is hardfixed, and can't be removed. For example, the JJs on the S config, for the purposes of this game.

Hornviech, on 10 May 2015 - 10:20 PM, said:

And the Problem is that not implemented in the right way.
In this variant the JJs are removeable they are not supposed to be fixed.
That's the problem!

Hornviech, on 10 May 2015 - 10:27 PM, said:

That is wrong!
According to the technical readouts you have fixed items these are shown in the base config but everything what is shown in the omnipods is removeable.
This is also stated in the omnimechrules.
PGI just changed the rules only for this mech because it is soooo overpowered.

IraqiWalker, on 10 May 2015 - 10:39 PM, said:

See, this is the part you're missing. In TT there is only ONE base config.

In MWO, every config is it's own base config. So the pods come stock with JJs, and thus the JJs are hardwired.

Nathan K, on 11 May 2015 - 02:10 AM, said:

In other words: He KNOWS this is not how it works in TT. (Well about damn time.)

CyclonerM, on 11 May 2015 - 03:30 AM, said:

Just to be clear, i think the difference is actually between "variant" and "configuration". In TT, each OmniMech chassis has a single base "variant" and A, B,C etc. are all alternate "configurations" aka different sets of weapons and equipment that can be quickly switched in and out of the base hardwired structure.

CyclonerM, on 11 May 2015 - 07:06 AM, said:

Thanks

I just made that clarification because i am nitpicky for this kind of things and in those two names there is the whole difference between a BattleMech and an OmniMech.

Thank you for being caught up now.

I know that's not how it was on TT, because in TT there was only ONE base config.

THIS IS NOT TT!!!! The TBR-S is it's own base config. The SMN-D is it's own base config. Literally every "variant" of a clan mech we have right now, is considered it's own base config in MWO. So when the TBR-S comes stock with JJs, by Kerensky those are gonna be hardwired according to the rules.

[TibsVT]

Honestly they just need to scrap their "omnipod" system completely for true omnipods. With all the internals locked they only need to restrict the pod space to what it should be set to per chassis (making alterations for chassis carrying Anti-Personnel Pods if none exist at present). That would allow for 27.5t of equipment space on the Timber Wolf. I use the word equipment because extra DHS's, targeting computers, active probes, weapons systems, chip off that total so yes, gear your Timber Wolf up like a Nova but it will cook just as quickly. Nearly, and I stress nearly, every setup that is massed at present now would still be available and you could satisfy the nit-pickers like myself who literally want to slightly alter the base Prime loadout (hate those MGs.. I wants my ERSL and an extra DHS). Would, for the most part, resolve this debate about fixed jump jets.. Which as someone pointed out should be redundant due to the release of the D. PGI certainly have a wicked sense of irony.

[Tywren]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 05:26 PM, said:

Here, this'll help you get caught up:

Spoiler

Thank you for being caught up now.

I know that's not how it was on TT, because in TT there was only ONE base config.

THIS IS NOT TT!!!! The TBR-S is it's own base config. The SMN-D is it's own base config. Literally every "variant" of a clan mech we have right now, is considered it's own base config in MWO. So when the TBR-S comes stock with JJs, by Kerensky those are gonna be hardwired according to the rules.

Yes, i'd already read all of those statement, and i was pointing out an instance in cannon that's proof JJs are not a peace of fixed equipment like an engine, or the number of arm actuators, but modular units like TCs, heat sinks, and active probes. It's not just me, and others in this thread saying you're wrong, it's the games lore it's self.

[IraqiWalker]

Tywren, on 13 May 2015 - 07:34 PM, said:

Yes, i'd already read all of those statement, and i was pointing out an instance in cannon that's proof JJs are not a peace of fixed equipment like an engine, or the number of arm actuators, but modular units like TCs, heat sinks, and active probes. It's not just me, and others in this thread saying you're wrong, it's the games lore it's self.

We already know that. If you read those comments you would have understood that per rulebook, only the equipment that comes stock on the base config (like the adder's flamer), is hardlocked, and can't be moved. That includes engines, and however many DHS, and JJs come with the base config.

Now, for MWO, that is not the case because EVERY VARIANT IS IT'S OWN BASE CONFIG IN MWO. So according to MWO canon, they are following the rules.

[Nightshade24]

Mordin Ashe, on 08 November 2014 - 03:03 AM, said:

Still the best heavy out there :-)

Meh, It's in the fuzzy meta region with some of the IS heavies. However stay any tiny little bit from the main meta build and this thing is as competitive as a Catapult with no quirks, ES, FF, or XL engine.
Meanwhile you got 7 medium pulse thunderbolts, 2-3 ER PPC thunderbolts, 2 AC 5 Dragons, etc providing a huge range for meta. Run the clan equivilants of those weapons and a hellbringer without ECM is possibly better then you

Aaaaaaaaaalso those fixed Jumpjets does nothing to the timberwolf. the metawolf uses them and it doesn't harm the non meta players either. On top of that the timberwolf D came out which has no hardwired JJ's and has 4M, so there is no real harm for locked JJ's on wolf.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 13 May 2015 - 08:38 PM, said:

Meh, It's in the fuzzy meta region with some of the IS heavies. However stay any tiny little bit from the main meta build and this thing is as competitive as a Catapult with no quirks, ES, FF, or XL engine.
Meanwhile you got 7 medium pulse thunderbolts, 2-3 ER PPC thunderbolts, 2 AC 5 Dragons, etc providing a huge range for meta. Run the clan equivilants of those weapons and a hellbringer without ECM is possibly better then you

That's completely a L2P issue. IS meta is different from clan meta, as you already know. You can't run the same builds on the opposite side and expect to be as effective.

For a simple example, the 2xAC5 dragon, vs, a 2UAC5 T-Wolf:

The Dragon has PP FLD, the T-Wolf has DoT. Guess which one wins at short range? The dragon (barely, the T-Wolf is still more mobile, and nimble).

Play to your faction's strengths, instead of mimicking builds that aren't designed for your faction's mechs. (Losing to the TDR with MPLs is a two fold failure, because clan mechs should try to avoid short range engagements as much as possible, and instead wear out their opponent at long range, before closing in for the kill).

Edited by IraqiWalker, 13 May 2015 - 10:04 PM.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

That's completely a L2P issue. IS meta is different from clan meta, as you already know. You can't run the same builds on the opposite side and expect to be as effective.

For a simple example, the 2xAC5 dragon, vs, a 2UAC5 T-Wolf:

The Dragon has PP FLD, the T-Wolf has DoT. Guess which one wins at short range? The dragon (barely, the T-Wolf is still more mobile, and nimble).

Play to your faction's strengths, instead of mimicking builds that aren't designed for your faction's mechs. (Losing to the TDR with MPLs is a two fold failure, because clan mechs should try to avoid short range engagements as much as possible, and instead wear out their opponent at long range, before closing in for the kill).

The 2 UAC 5 timberwolf is nearly useless and you forget the Dragon has 0 jam chance.
ALSO Clan AC's fire bursts of bullets (3 for UAC 5) but dragon fires 1. There is a reason you rarely ever see UAC 5's for clans.

In this situation my money would be the dragon wins hands down without challenge, it already out does the direwolf in sustained DPS and the king crab in general besides armour

I would play to my fractions strength if they had any. PGI nerfed nearly everything to the ground for clans and this is why 2 variants of mechs with nearly identical builds are in the meta and are the only things that can compete with IS mechs.

PGI even did it so much that you can't even run stock/ lore builds or lore inspired builds.

I'm still waiting when the adder can compete with a panther.
The warhawk to the awesome.
The SUmmoner to the Thunderbolt
The hellbringer to the katapult.

in PPC's/ ER PPC's.

Or seeing any clan mech using a ballistic that isn't a gauss rifle to be considered okay or good. Even then running a gauss rifle on 80% of the clan mechs is still considered bad.

Or the fact all er small lasers, small pulse, er medium, and medium pulse are all linked ghost heat for clans yet IS have no ghost heat for small pulse, small, and medium pulse AT ALL. On a hunchback you can replace 3 of the 9 medium lasers to small pulse or medium pulse to avoid ghost heat on alpha.
Nova can't replace 6 of it's lasers to another to avoid ghost heat, or arctic cheetah with it's odd 1 out, or direwolf with it's 4+. etc...



At your end quote. There is a problem there. Clans only advantage in game compared to IS with meta slightly out of the question is short range combat.

Streaks, SRM's, LBX's, etc is the clans advantage. Look at the IS.

look at the Dragon 1N, thunderbolt 9S, Locust 1V and 3V, etc...
Look at the banshees and the king crabs, look at the stalker 4N's and majority of ER PPC IS mechs that reach over 1000 meters range with velocity so high that not even a targeting computer 7 can do and the minor quirks clan got atm.

Hell, the locust 3V has a 50% range boost!

That makes even a large laser for IS reach waaaaaaay further then any gauss, ER PPC, or ER large laser Clans got. ANd this is just a 20 ton mech. Can you name any Clan light that useful?
The locust 1V is in another odd boat here as well.

These are just locusts, i do not even think I need to describe to you what the other mechs do.


I am not trying to mimic the IS meta just because I think it should be equal for the clans and ignore the tech difference.
I am only showing the differences between the same playstyles nad typical weapon load out of 2 mechs. in most cases Clans should be superior (ie warhawk verse (some) awesomes, Adder verse Panther, etc) but in MW: O the situation is much more wrong then it should.

It's no brainer the majority of clan mechs need quirks. Eve nthe ones that do have it need better ones. ie adder, warhawk, etc. (Warhawk ballistic quirks are good however...) This much is obvious.

Even you admited the Timberwolf sucks with UAC 5. it sucks with all ballistics besides a fraction of meta deviants with a gauss rifle... how often you see a timberwolf use a UAC 5? or a stormcrow with a LBX 10 or UAC 20?

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 02:06 AM, said:

The 2 UAC 5 timberwolf is nearly useless and you forget the Dragon has 0 jam chance.
ALSO Clan AC's fire bursts of bullets (3 for UAC 5) but dragon fires 1. There is a reason you rarely ever see UAC 5's for clans.

In this situation my money would be the dragon wins hands down without challenge, it already out does the direwolf in sustained DPS and the king crab in general besides armour

I would play to my fractions strength if they had any. PGI nerfed nearly everything to the ground for clans and this is why 2 variants of mechs with nearly identical builds are in the meta and are the only things that can compete with IS mechs.

PGI even did it so much that you can't even run stock/ lore builds or lore inspired builds.

I'm still waiting when the adder can compete with a panther.
The warhawk to the awesome.
The SUmmoner to the Thunderbolt
The hellbringer to the katapult.

in PPC's/ ER PPC's.

Or seeing any clan mech using a ballistic that isn't a gauss rifle to be considered okay or good. Even then running a gauss rifle on 80% of the clan mechs is still considered bad.

Or the fact all er small lasers, small pulse, er medium, and medium pulse are all linked ghost heat for clans yet IS have no ghost heat for small pulse, small, and medium pulse AT ALL. On a hunchback you can replace 3 of the 9 medium lasers to small pulse or medium pulse to avoid ghost heat on alpha.
Nova can't replace 6 of it's lasers to another to avoid ghost heat, or arctic cheetah with it's odd 1 out, or direwolf with it's 4+. etc...



At your end quote. There is a problem there. Clans only advantage in game compared to IS with meta slightly out of the question is short range combat.

Streaks, SRM's, LBX's, etc is the clans advantage. Look at the IS.

look at the Dragon 1N, thunderbolt 9S, Locust 1V and 3V, etc...
Look at the banshees and the king crabs, look at the stalker 4N's and majority of ER PPC IS mechs that reach over 1000 meters range with velocity so high that not even a targeting computer 7 can do and the minor quirks clan got atm.

Hell, the locust 3V has a 50% range boost!

That makes even a large laser for IS reach waaaaaaay further then any gauss, ER PPC, or ER large laser Clans got. ANd this is just a 20 ton mech. Can you name any Clan light that useful?
The locust 1V is in another odd boat here as well.

These are just locusts, i do not even think I need to describe to you what the other mechs do.


I am not trying to mimic the IS meta just because I think it should be equal for the clans and ignore the tech difference.
I am only showing the differences between the same playstyles nad typical weapon load out of 2 mechs. in most cases Clans should be superior (ie warhawk verse (some) awesomes, Adder verse Panther, etc) but in MW: O the situation is much more wrong then it should.

It's no brainer the majority of clan mechs need quirks. Eve nthe ones that do have it need better ones. ie adder, warhawk, etc. (Warhawk ballistic quirks are good however...) This much is obvious.

Even you admited the Timberwolf sucks with UAC 5. it sucks with all ballistics besides a fraction of meta deviants with a gauss rifle... how often you see a timberwolf use a UAC 5? or a stormcrow with a LBX 10 or UAC 20?

The same response still applies.

IraqiWalker, on 13 May 2015 - 10:03 PM, said:

That's completely a L2P issue. IS meta is different from clan meta, as you already know. You can't run the same builds on the opposite side and expect to be as effective

Play to your faction's strengths, instead of mimicking builds that aren't designed for your faction's mechs.

Clan tech is about DoT, for ballistics PP FLD is superior considering the ranges, also HSR kinda ruins the whole burst fire deal for clans, so that needs to be fixed.

While quirks are indeed effective, the IS meta is centered in only a few mechs in the heavy class. As far as lights go, no matter the quirks you slap on a locust, the meta is still Firestarters, and Spiders.

As for naming a clan light that is very useful, you've got 2 at least that are solid choices:

Kitfox, and Arctic Cheetah.

The IS has 2 or 3 meta chassis that can actually compete at range with the clans, while every clan mech comes stock with the ability of being a top line long range combatant.

The nice thing about quirks is that they keep getting adjusted and modified (remember when the LCT-3M had Small Pulse Laser quirks? Or when the Nova Prime had negative quirks on it's arms, each worth an entire HBK-9P?)

On a side note:

As far as clan tech being superior, it really wasn't that much better in lore. The main reason was because clans were fighting tech 1 mechs, the stock configs we get in this game when we first purchase a mech.

Of course, the weapons being better across the board helped out, but nowhere near as big of a gap as people keep thinking it should be. In fact, the real edge clans had wasn't the weaponry. It was the omni pod tech. Allowed them to re-fit, and fix mechs in the span of hours, instead of weeks to months.

In fact, if you play TT now, and do tech 2 IS vs. Clans, just close into short range, and engage in melee that is pretty much the end of the clan force right then and there.

In this game we have the different mechanics of PP FLD, and DoT. Now at long range, the clans have Gauss (IS might have quirked extra range on a couple of mechs, but clan gauss is still smaller and lighter), and ERPPC. While the IS has Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, and AC2?

Clans are lacking in the PP FLD department, but they make up for it by having the highest DPS, and excelling at DoT. If an enemy gets into a staredown contest with a clan mech, they will melt super fast.

All this dancing is leading up to the point that IS has Ballistics as their main weapon. While clans have lasers as their main weapon.

Also, HSR needs to get fixed, before any modifications can be done on weapons.

[Lugh]

IraqiWalker, on 14 May 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

The same response still applies.




Clan tech is about DoT, for ballistics PP FLD is superior considering the ranges, also HSR kinda ruins the whole burst fire deal for clans, so that needs to be fixed.

While quirks are indeed effective, the IS meta is centered in only a few mechs in the heavy class. As far as lights go, no matter the quirks you slap on a locust, the meta is still Firestarters, and Spiders.

As for naming a clan light that is very useful, you've got 2 at least that are solid choices:

Kitfox, and Arctic Cheetah.

The IS has 2 or 3 meta chassis that can actually compete at range with the clans, while every clan mech comes stock with the ability of being a top line long range combatant.

The nice thing about quirks is that they keep getting adjusted and modified (remember when the LCT-3M had Small Pulse Laser quirks? Or when the Nova Prime had negative quirks on it's arms, each worth an entire HBK-9P?)

On a side note:

As far as clan tech being superior, it really wasn't that much better in lore. The main reason was because clans were fighting tech 1 mechs, the stock configs we get in this game when we first purchase a mech.

Of course, the weapons being better across the board helped out, but nowhere near as big of a gap as people keep thinking it should be. In fact, the real edge clans had wasn't the weaponry. It was the omni pod tech. Allowed them to re-fit, and fix mechs in the span of hours, instead of weeks to months.

In fact, if you play TT now, and do tech 2 IS vs. Clans, just close into short range, and engage in melee that is pretty much the end of the clan force right then and there.

In this game we have the different mechanics of PP FLD, and DoT. Now at long range, the clans have Gauss (IS might have quirked extra range on a couple of mechs, but clan gauss is still smaller and lighter), and ERPPC. While the IS has Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, and AC2?

Clans are lacking in the PP FLD department, but they make up for it by having the highest DPS, and excelling at DoT. If an enemy gets into a staredown contest with a clan mech, they will melt super fast.

All this dancing is leading up to the point that IS has Ballistics as their main weapon. While clans have lasers as their main weapon.

Also, HSR needs to get fixed, before any modifications can be done on weapons.

Clan pilots need to be precogs to predict when someone will be peeking so they can get their full laser burn on them, The IS has faster to completion burn times on all their lasers. That means they win in peek and poke 2015. There is enough cover in this game at this time that the extra long range is NOT an advantage at all.

[KursedVixen]

So i'd just like to ask, In TT and BT are the jump jet's Fixed on the Timberwolf, Summoner, Nova?

Personally speaking.
so their fixed just adapt

A True Mechwarrior freeborn or trueborn adapts to the situation modifying their mech to their specification dependent only on tonnage and critical slots. if you don't like the jumpjets you can do a few things to fix this. 1. remove the S side torsos 2. if you want no jumpjets don't use the S 3.modify your build to accommodate the weight of 2 or 4 jump jets depending on if you use 1 or 2 S side torsos

and 4.If you don't like it don't use it. No one is forcing you to use the timberwolf there are plenty of other wonderful heavy class mechs to use.

Lugh, on 14 May 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Clan pilots need to be precogs to predict when someone will be peeking so they can get their full laser burn on them, The IS has faster to completion burn times on all their lasers. That means they win in peek and poke 2015. There is enough cover in this game at this time that the extra long range is NOT an advantage at all.

some clan mech omnipods have laser duration quirks that might change this if not slightly alter it.

But yes hit registry needs fixed before we consider any weapon changes.

Edited by KursedVixen, 14 May 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[Repasy Cooper]

So people are still discussing this? I would have thought this all became moot with the introduction of D variant omnipods...

[Kain Demos]

Repasy, on 14 May 2015 - 04:38 PM, said:

So people are still discussing this? I would have thought this all became moot with the introduction of D variant omnipods...

Sadly it looks like the ***** and whine crew is getting their way:

http://www.reddit.co...irk_iterations/