307 replies to this topic

[Repasy Cooper]

Kain Thul, on 14 May 2015 - 05:37 PM, said:

Sadly it looks like the ***** and whine crew is getting their way:

http://www.reddit.co...irk_iterations/

Bah, some people have nothing better to do than whine. Yes, lets tailor a select few mechs to be superior in every single situation. Much logic there..

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 14 May 2015 - 02:51 AM, said:

The same response still applies.




Clan tech is about DoT, for ballistics PP FLD is superior considering the ranges, also HSR kinda ruins the whole burst fire deal for clans, so that needs to be fixed.

While quirks are indeed effective, the IS meta is centered in only a few mechs in the heavy class. As far as lights go, no matter the quirks you slap on a locust, the meta is still Firestarters, and Spiders.

As for naming a clan light that is very useful, you've got 2 at least that are solid choices:

Kitfox, and Arctic Cheetah.

The IS has 2 or 3 meta chassis that can actually compete at range with the clans, while every clan mech comes stock with the ability of being a top line long range combatant.

The nice thing about quirks is that they keep getting adjusted and modified (remember when the LCT-3M had Small Pulse Laser quirks? Or when the Nova Prime had negative quirks on it's arms, each worth an entire HBK-9P?)

On a side note:

As far as clan tech being superior, it really wasn't that much better in lore. The main reason was because clans were fighting tech 1 mechs, the stock configs we get in this game when we first purchase a mech.

Of course, the weapons being better across the board helped out, but nowhere near as big of a gap as people keep thinking it should be. In fact, the real edge clans had wasn't the weaponry. It was the omni pod tech. Allowed them to re-fit, and fix mechs in the span of hours, instead of weeks to months.

In fact, if you play TT now, and do tech 2 IS vs. Clans, just close into short range, and engage in melee that is pretty much the end of the clan force right then and there.

In this game we have the different mechanics of PP FLD, and DoT. Now at long range, the clans have Gauss (IS might have quirked extra range on a couple of mechs, but clan gauss is still smaller and lighter), and ERPPC. While the IS has Gauss, PPC, ERPPC, and AC2?

Clans are lacking in the PP FLD department, but they make up for it by having the highest DPS, and excelling at DoT. If an enemy gets into a staredown contest with a clan mech, they will melt super fast.

All this dancing is leading up to the point that IS has Ballistics as their main weapon. While clans have lasers as their main weapon.

Also, HSR needs to get fixed, before any modifications can be done on weapons.

That being out of the way...

The same response applies.

Anyway, is clans really damage over time? most IS mechs with quirks to there strength always have better DoT over Clans.

Nova Verse Hunchback.
Kitfox Verse Spider
Adder Verse Firestarter
Stormcrow Verse Griffin (for missile vs missile), Wolverine (for mixed missile and energy verse missile and energy), Shadowhawk (energy/ ballistics)
Awesome verse Warhawk
King crab verse direwolf
(list above comparing to the counterpart of similar era, tonnage, role, and weight class)
As some generals genericly all IS lights out DPS most clan mechs between 20 to 40 tons.

etc, list goes on. Some IS mechs fire so rapidly that they fire again before the reload sound with weapons like PPC's, AC 20's, etc. That says a lot. Especially considering that only 1-2 Clan mechs got quirks for 20% Max and the majority are stuck between negative 10% and 8%?

Also I wouldn't consider clan ballistics being a PP FLD advantage considering they fire multiple bullets over time to the point an SRM would be considered more of a FLD weapon then a weapon firing 2 to 5 bullets to deliver there full damage. Only the gauss has the advantage here but considering most clan mechs have hard wiring being an issue it's kind of hard to compete.

Duel gauss mad dog verse Duel Gauss Jagermech.
Tell me who you will think would win?

Or a Singular Gauss Stormcrow verse a Singular Gauss Grid Iron.

it can be a minor advantage that clans got CASE everywhere and thus Gauss explosion isn't that bad, but that's only a 0.5 ton set back for the IS for 1 and 1.0 ton for 2 and they already have often the advantage in ammo and such for simular builds and play styles.


Also IS have more then PPC, Gauss, and an AC 2 for range for this damage type, (even then, clan ER PPC wastes it's heat on 2.5 + 2.5 splash damage that practically does nothing unless you alpha over 3 to have a noticable effect ie a near miss on a cored component, which at this point makes a mech suffer severe ghost heat and I do not think most clans can handle 3 ER PPC alpha).

IS got the AC 5, ER PPC, and for some mechs the AC 10 even sneaks it way up there due to range, fire rate, and velocity quirks.



Also you can't say much on the effectiveness of the Arctic Cheetah as it is not in game yet. for all your knowledge it'll get the clan anti meta treatment and have nerf-quirks 10% for nearly everything that doens't force you to put a UAC 5 on it or LRM's.

As for the kitfox this would still lose to any IS light mech in a 1 verse 1 unless when running streaks but in this specific encounter a ranged IS Light such as a ER PPC / ER large laser / Large pulse laser Raven / Firestarter/ Panther/ Spider / Commando would win in this situation.

I know in istuations like these a mech isn't 100% made to be able to take out the same weight class. Such as how the Huginn a very deadly IS light can not kill other lights (excluding Clan lights and urbanmech due to low speed) but can deal a massive damage to assaults and heavies.

But the Kitfox doesn't stand out for that either unless when it runs LRM's which then it has greator capabilities over a Stalker for LRM boating. But hey. LRM's have never been part of meta. so that should not be to much part of this discussion granted I am talking about clans overall.

The Kitfox only saving grace is ECM which was pretty much stripped when the Hellbringer came in, another meh mech but better then a kitfox and has ECM and better overall hardpoints. So that stole the Kitfoxes thunder.
Take the ECM and AMS of a kitfox and you have a mech that struggles to compete with anything. Reguardless of tech.

Now on your topic of quirks, This is slightly true, but those mechs that got nerfed still peform better then the clan or nearest clan coutnerparts and still compare to the IS counterparts. (having nearly 14 locusts and possible 15th soon. I think I can say that for the locust with the small pulse quirks... I didn't even put small pulse on it then and still don't now)
Also what is up with your nova comment? negative quirks in most situation are quite poor. Also no such thing as a hunchback 9P, the 5P isn't here until 19 years from now, the 4P is what I assume yo uare refearing to but that thing still out peforms the nova now and back then. Only time the nova was good was before tech nerfs.

It is true quirks change but not in a long time from now, only quirk changes are clans getting better quirks and introduction of new quirk types such as 30% less UAC jam, 30% less LBX spread, etc. and ballances to chassis that got those quirks.


I am familiar with this point. Wouldn't this be one of the main supporting points that IS do not need quirks to make them seal club clans if tech 2 IS can already peform on par? I made this statement a few times in the past on why clans are not OP. especially in MW: O. When compairing it on my above list, I am using points from both stock, stock+ and ++, and builds that still resemble there stock load out / inspiration even if barely. (ie not talking about things like 2 AC 2 locusts as that extremely differs from the invisionment and ability of the locust)

Also the point about the DPS I will repeat I find incorrect, most IS mechs out do clans by DPS if you remove things like double firing from UAC's, which on most UAC boats (Direwolf for eg) jams. While mechs like the dragon 1N fires there guns if like it has 2 UAC 5's but 2 tons total removed compaired to IS UAC 5 as well as 0% jam. Unless the direwolf or timberwolf gets a 50% fire rate quirk to an AC 5, I do not think the clans are winning by DPS in most cases that isn't missile related.

IS do not use ballistics often as a main weapon, it's present in some meta but IS use more energy then clans I have seen in the current public matches and Tukayyid. 6 Large laser stlaker, ER large laser locust, 3 ER large laser shadowhawks, 7 Medium pulse laser thunderbolt, 3 ER PPC thunderbolt, 3-4 Large pulse laser thunderbolt, Grasshoppers genericly, etc all heavily use lasers, usually beat or surpas the clan counterpart, and genericlly have better range (Thunderbolt and Stalker for eg). Also energy isn't to the Clan advantage, only a specific combination of ER mediums and Large pulse lasers or on lighter mechs ER large lasers instead of Large pulse is present. Rarely ever see Small pulse, er small, medium pulse, or er ppcs being used well or to a good effect. or Using er mediums as a secondary weapon. If anything clans have an advantage, it would be missiles by far. Alas that would be dangerous to rely on in a public pug match and seeing the high ammount of ECM mechs on the IS side it would not be to well in CW either.



I do believe all weapon types should be valid on both factions. but Right now clans struggle to even use there (by your standard) "Strength" to good effect. Any advantages lore wise clans had for chassis to chassi comparison does not stick at all in MW: O and the quirks try to force the opposite to occur that a singular ER PPC on a IS mech can be more usefull then a single, duel, or even a tripple ER PPC on a clan mech even at a higher tonnage. For eg.

If you are saying I have a learn to play issue because I do not missile boat in a nova then I do not know much else to say to you besides hopping for a 40% LRM cool down on a nova to at least ease the pain of that sarcasm wall.

All this dancing is leading up to the point that IS has Ballistics as their main weapon. While clans have lasers as their main weapon.

[IraqiWalker]

KursedVixen, on 14 May 2015 - 01:00 PM, said:

So i'd just like to ask, In TT and BT are the jump jet's Fixed on the Timberwolf, Summoner, Nova?

Any JJs,(in fact any piece of equipment -not weapons, but JJs, DHs, and a few select weapons, like the Adder Flamer- that comes stock on the prime variant, is fixed, and hard locked. It's a restriction of the omni system, in lore. So the JJs on the summoner, are hardlocked on all summoner alternate configs.

The clans never did variants, they just manufactured a CT with legs, and a cockpit. Anything other than what came with this stock template, the pilot had free reign over. So what weapons to put, and what extra equipment to slap on, is up to the pilot's decision. You can't remove what comes with the stock chassis, just add on top of it.

So when you see the Summoner config D, it's basically a famous set up that a bunch of other pilots looked at, and went "That's not bad, I'd like to use it". Every single alternate config listed, is basically a "meta" set up that became wide spread among the clan pilots.

However, PGI is treating every single alternate config as it's own STOCK (Base) config. So the JJs on the S config in TT wouldn't be hard locked. However, for MWO, the S config is considered a variant, (like how the HBK-G, and 4SP are different variants). So what equipment comes stock on the S (the JJs in this case), is hardlocked to the S.

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

That being out of the way...

I like that image, I'll add it to my library, if you don't mind.

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 07:47 PM, said:

Massive wall of text

Thank you for the reply. It took me a while to read it, and I would like to clarify a few things:

1- I was not referring to you needing to L2P. I've seen you on the field. That was more of a general comment, to anyone who tries to use meta builds that don't work for their mech. I also know that clan ballistics are not PP FLD, and I apologize if it sounded in my post like I was accusing you of thinking that. The Ballistics are definitely FLD, just not PP. Much like SRMs.

2- I understand that factors like a limited selection of mechs is a problem (the clans still only have 12 chassis, compared to the IS who have at least 6 in each weight class)

3- Dual Gauss Jager vs. Dual Gauss MDD will end with the Jager most likely winning. However, that comes down to the MDD not being designed for this. It's got very low slung arms, and huge torsos. It's like me comparing an SRM wolf, vs, an SRM Dragon. The MDD is being crippled by it's pilot using a loadout it wasn't designed for.

However, I'm not ignoring the fact that clans only have 3 mechs in each weight class. Which is part of why the clans are struggling, on top of everything else.

4- I'm not saying don't give the clans good quirks. I was just saying that all quirks are subject to change, and do in fact change. PGI keeps doing quirk passes, and they help bring things closer to balance (and sometimes, they break the system so hard it takes reality bending backwards for people to see it).

5- I also agree that some mechs are over-quirked (Remember when the ERPPC thunderbolt first debuted? Launching ERPPCs faster than an AC 2 fires it's rounds?), and those quirks are getting changed, fixed, modifed ... etc.

6- My main thrust is that a lot of the modifications people suggest aren't exactly what we need right now. First we need HSR fixed, and THEN we can tweak the weapons, once they work right.

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 14 May 2015 - 09:44 PM, said:

Any JJs,(in fact any piece of equipment -not weapons, but JJs, DHs, and a few select weapons, like the Adder Flamer- that comes stock on the prime variant, is fixed, and hard locked. It's a restriction of the omni system, in lore. So the JJs on the summoner, are hardlocked on all summoner alternate configs.

The clans never did variants, they just manufactured a CT with legs, and a cockpit. Anything other than what came with this stock template, the pilot had free reign over. So what weapons to put, and what extra equipment to slap on, is up to the pilot's decision. You can't remove what comes with the stock chassis, just add on top of it.

So when you see the Summoner config D, it's basically a famous set up that a bunch of other pilots looked at, and went "That's not bad, I'd like to use it". Every single alternate config listed, is basically a "meta" set up that became wide spread among the clan pilots.

However, PGI is treating every single alternate config as it's own STOCK (Base) config. So the JJs on the S config in TT wouldn't be hard locked. However, for MWO, the S config is considered a variant, (like how the HBK-G, and 4SP are different variants). So what equipment comes stock on the S (the JJs in this case), is hardlocked to the S.


I like that image, I'll add it to my library, if you don't mind.


Thank you for the reply. It took me a while to read it, and I would like to clarify a few things:

1- I was not referring to you needing to L2P. I've seen you on the field. That was more of a general comment, to anyone who tries to use meta builds that don't work for their mech. I also know that clan ballistics are not PP FLD, and I apologize if it sounded in my post like I was accusing you of thinking that. The Ballistics are definitely FLD, just not PP. Much like SRMs.

2- I understand that factors like a limited selection of mechs is a problem (the clans still only have 12 chassis, compared to the IS who have at least 6 in each weight class)

3- Dual Gauss Jager vs. Dual Gauss MDD will end with the Jager most likely winning. However, that comes down to the MDD not being designed for this. It's got very low slung arms, and huge torsos. It's like me comparing an SRM wolf, vs, an SRM Dragon. The MDD is being crippled by it's pilot using a loadout it wasn't designed for.

However, I'm not ignoring the fact that clans only have 3 mechs in each weight class. Which is part of why the clans are struggling, on top of everything else.

4- I'm not saying don't give the clans good quirks. I was just saying that all quirks are subject to change, and do in fact change. PGI keeps doing quirk passes, and they help bring things closer to balance (and sometimes, they break the system so hard it takes reality bending backwards for people to see it).

5- I also agree that some mechs are over-quirked (Remember when the ERPPC thunderbolt first debuted? Launching ERPPCs faster than an AC 2 fires it's rounds?), and those quirks are getting changed, fixed, modifed ... etc.

6- My main thrust is that a lot of the modifications people suggest aren't exactly what we need right now. First we need HSR fixed, and THEN we can tweak the weapons, once they work right.

1- Thank you for the clarification. It does help a lot and give me hope that on the forums :- internet in general. That there is still mature people out there who can have a proper debate/ discussion without resorting to petty argument personal attacks and thick headedness. I can't really justify what joy your first point here gave me when I read it.

2- Yes, but I think one major problem here is not simply viarity, but lack of balancing in them (ie something quirks could provide like with IS chassis). There is no point for me to run the following mechs because the other ones completely out weigh it. (Numbers will be what mech replaces it due to over whelming abilities and performance in the meta)

Kitfox -3, 2
Adder -3

Nova - 3

Summoner - 1
Hellbringer - 1

Gargoyle - 1
Warhawk - 1

1 = Timberwolf
2 = Hellbringer
3 = Stormcrow

The remaining mechs have some advantages and can be used in specific meta play but not actively or commonly. These are the...
Mist linx
Ice ferret
Direwolf.

Anyway, Even here, the NON-meta timberwolf and stormcrow have very hard times competing. ie using any ballistic that isn't gauss on timberwolf or stormcrow, using missiles (well in non meta terms the timberwolf slightly struggles, but the Stormcrow is okay), and ER PPC's. Meta timberwolf in my mind is a T1 mech, but non meta timberwolfs can range between T3 to even some at T4 which just because it uses a weapon that is a ballistic or uses machine guns or what have you.

I have a few ideas how to support some chassis without making the meta ones OP... but I do not even know if PGI goes on the suggestion thread... I can write like a whole book about some changes I think that will ballance the game out, ranging from quirks like "1 less bullet (2 min) for clan autocannons" (so like a direwolf fires 1 less bullet then other mechs, so it's UAC 5 fires 4 bullets doing 5 damage each, UAC 5 fires 2 bullets , etc) (this is a in lore thing, Mechs like the couldron born uses only 2 bullets to fire it's UAC 20 but other mechs use 10 bullets for a UAC 10)
and all sort of things like supporting the omnipod quirk bonus to make it improve the mech with stock omnipods (ie giving the timberwolf D massive ER PPC quirks with full set or adds to the current ones) but if you want to abuse that and add timberwolf A side torso for high mounted ER PPC's the quirk value drop due to no longer being a quirk set. etc...

Some ideas I had.

But I will not bore you

3-
eeeeeh... the Mad Dog C was actually pretty much made for it. Also omnimechs are not all identical. The Mad Dog C actually had smaller side torsos and higher mounted Gauss rifles. I can find some pictures but other people on the forum earlier had issues with perspective or simply say "Artists renditions and choices, he does what ever".

MW4 Mods Mad dog C best shows this but people consider it non cannon. my main point to say that this kinda modificaitons is cannon is the direwolf Natasha kerensky "Widowmaker", which has no actuators for arms and they are up higher.

Also if you mean by MWO standards in general I do not see the ST and arms being to much of an issue for some play styles, there is more ways to utilize cover then hill humping. I can see with an ammo quirk and such or unlocking some hard wired heatsinks could help this thing be a bit more of a threat, I do enjoy this little bugger. But It's kind of up to PGI to do what they please with it, But I will tell you if it's only a 8% MG range quirk you can bet your arse you will not see me here for another year.

4-
fair enough, I do know they keep changing, but often they stay about the same over time from initial first changes and such.

5- It wasn't simpyl the fire rate that pissed me off, it's the fact that due to velocity, fire rate, and heat, it does the same ammount of damage as 4 Warhawk with targeting computers (even then velocity is still lower then the Thunderbolts) and slightly lower then 4 but not quite 3 for without targeting computers.

When a signle IS 65 tonner out does 4 clan 85 tonners (340 tons... essetially this thing was worth 340 clan tons for 1 65 ton. In CW you can see how this was in some ways an unfair advantage back then). That was my issues with it, it could keep the fire rate that with 3 it can fire them in a nice loop, but the heat and velocity got my goat.

6- fiar enough. Can't really say much here.



Also you're welcome for the image. I got quite a few more somewhere else but I do not use them often on MW: O forums.

[IraqiWalker]

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

1- Thank you for the clarification. It does help a lot and give me hope that on the forums :- internet in general. That there is still mature people out there who can have a proper debate/ discussion without resorting to petty argument personal attacks and thick headedness. I can't really justify what joy your first point here gave me when I read it.

it's refreshing, innit?

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

2- Yes, but I think one major problem here is not simply viarity, but lack of balancing in them (ie something quirks could provide like with IS chassis). There is no point for me to run the following mechs because the other ones completely out weigh it. (Numbers will be what mech replaces it due to over whelming abilities and performance in the meta)

Kitfox -3, 2
Adder -3

Nova - 3

Summoner - 1
Hellbringer - 1

Gargoyle - 1
Warhawk - 1

1 = Timberwolf
2 = Hellbringer
3 = Stormcrow

The remaining mechs have some advantages and can be used in specific meta play but not actively or commonly. These are the...
Mist linx
Ice ferret
Direwolf.

Anyway, Even here, the NON-meta timberwolf and stormcrow have very hard times competing. ie using any ballistic that isn't gauss on timberwolf or stormcrow, using missiles (well in non meta terms the timberwolf slightly struggles, but the Stormcrow is okay), and ER PPC's. Meta timberwolf in my mind is a T1 mech, but non meta timberwolfs can range between T3 to even some at T4 which just because it uses a weapon that is a ballistic or uses machine guns or what have you.

I have a few ideas how to support some chassis without making the meta ones OP... but I do not even know if PGI goes on the suggestion thread... I can write like a whole book about some changes I think that will ballance the game out, ranging from quirks like "1 less bullet (2 min) for clan autocannons" (so like a direwolf fires 1 less bullet then other mechs, so it's UAC 5 fires 4 bullets doing 5 damage each, UAC 5 fires 2 bullets , etc) (this is a in lore thing, Mechs like the couldron born uses only 2 bullets to fire it's UAC 20 but other mechs use 10 bullets for a UAC 10)
and all sort of things like supporting the omnipod quirk bonus to make it improve the mech with stock omnipods (ie giving the timberwolf D massive ER PPC quirks with full set or adds to the current ones) but if you want to abuse that and add timberwolf A side torso for high mounted ER PPC's the quirk value drop due to no longer being a quirk set. etc...

Some ideas I had.

But I will not bore you

I agree with you on most of what you said here. The rest is really nit picking, and not worth getting into. On the big picture, we both see eye to eye, and that's what matters. The mechs themselves have problems that go beyond the weapons. Clan tech has had this issue since day 1, and honestly, I almost gave up on a solution for it, until quirks came along (mostly because I never though PGI would consider adding quirks).

Taking the example of the Hunchbacks. There was little reason to ever use the 4H, over the 4G, and the SP virtually saw no play before quirks came along. Because all the hunchies that had a ballistic side torso played the same, and the G had 3 ballistic hardpoints, in case you wanted to slap something extra in there.

Quirks helped give each Hunchie it's own identity, and helped push players into building them differently, instead of running the same build on the 4H, as you do on the G.

This is something that needs to happen to clan mechs as well. The Kitfox and Adder JUST got a true IS counterpart, in the form of the Urbie, a mech, that by all accounts was not going to ever be put in MWO, except for a few of us sociopaths who raised a big enough ruckus about it, that they added a negative tonnage engine into the game (it's not negative, I know, but for MWO purposes we'll stick with that XD)

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

3- eeeeeh... the Mad Dog C was actually pretty much made for it. Also omnimechs are not all identical. The Mad Dog C actually had smaller side torsos and higher mounted Gauss rifles. I can find some pictures but other people on the forum earlier had issues with perspective or simply say "Artists renditions and choices, he does what ever".

MW4 Mods Mad dog C best shows this but people consider it non cannon. my main point to say that this kinda modificaitons is cannon is the direwolf Natasha kerensky "Widowmaker", which has no actuators for arms and they are up higher.

Also if you mean by MWO standards in general I do not see the ST and arms being to much of an issue for some play styles, there is more ways to utilize cover then hill humping. I can see with an ammo quirk and such or unlocking some hard wired heatsinks could help this thing be a bit more of a threat, I do enjoy this little bugger. But It's kind of up to PGI to do what they please with it, But I will tell you if it's only a 8% MG range quirk you can bet your arse you will not see me here for another year.

I should have been clearer. I meant for MWO. If we had the proper MDD-C high mounted arms, the competition would definitely be a lot closer (PGI, could we get variable arms please?)

Aside from artist choice/rendition, some common sense should be factored into the mech designs, and so having the C arms being made for the purpose of sniping/ballistic slugging, would imply that them being made high mounted wouldn't be a stretch of the imagination.

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

4- fair enough, I do know they keep changing, but often they stay about the same over time from initial first changes and such.

5- It wasn't simpyl the fire rate that pissed me off, it's the fact that due to velocity, fire rate, and heat, it does the same ammount of damage as 4 Warhawk with targeting computers (even then velocity is still lower then the Thunderbolts) and slightly lower then 4 but not quite 3 for without targeting computers.

When a signle IS 65 tonner out does 4 clan 85 tonners (340 tons... essetially this thing was worth 340 clan tons for 1 65 ton. In CW you can see how this was in some ways an unfair advantage back then). That was my issues with it, it could keep the fire rate that with 3 it can fire them in a nice loop, but the heat and velocity got my goat.

That all falls under PGI needing to experiment with quirks (since unlike almost everything else we have in this game, they don't really have a previous model to follow with quirks). They're probably throwing darts at a board full of quirk suggestions, and trying them out, to see which ones work, and which ones don't.

Nightshade24, on 14 May 2015 - 10:22 PM, said:

Also you're welcome for the image. I got quite a few more somewhere else but I do not use them often on MW: O forums.

I enjoy using these on certain image boards. XD, and here in the forums, every now and then.

[Dagorlad13]

The Timber-S already has negative quirks, IS mechs no longer have negative quirks. No more Clan Nerfs, quit whining and learn to play!

[Nightshade24]

IraqiWalker, on 14 May 2015 - 11:23 PM, said:

-snip-

Yes, I quite enjoy the end result of this lil debate. Nothing but respect ponders at you like the rain before the storm.

Also I agree with your comment on the quirk addition. However a minor nitpick: I saw the 4SP reasonably often as it is the only hunchback able to use an Xl engine as well as making the 4H obsolete (mainly when it had a huge hunch).

You know. I think one of the fastest buffs to the 'worse' clan mechs would be the re-introduction of Repair and Rearm (which is coming eventually). Due to the fact say... a Nova, with No FF or ES to make higher repair bills, as well as a smaller engine compared to timberwolf. Would make this mech usefull again.

however one problem this game has there are people out there with literally a billion or half billion C-bills atm who can afford the max repair bill for over 2 years on the most expensive repair possible in game...

BTW: Shall we move this conversation to the PM's? We're getting more and more of topic and I do enjoy talking to you.

[Appogee]

Mr White NLD, on 08 November 2014 - 02:48 AM, said:

their useless now!

My friend, if you can't do well in a Timberwolf, it aint the Timberwolf's problem.

Timberwolf and Storm Crow are the Mechs I turn to when I'm having a crappy day trying to level non meta Mechs. They kill and survive to keep on killing.

Edited by Appogee, 15 May 2015 - 12:46 AM.

[KursedVixen]

soo I still don't get it in TT where the jumjets fixed on the s configuration of the timberwolf?

and what about the nova and summoner? where they fixed on those chassis?

also

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a5d5249421d7a7



personanly i'd go for 15's to get some more double heat sinks or something but yeah.

Edited by KursedVixen, 15 May 2015 - 12:49 AM.

[jaxjace]

Timbers can mount more firepower than XL stalkers, sit down.

[KuroNyra]

jaxjace, on 15 May 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Timbers can mount more firepower than XL stalkers, sit down.

More firepower means more heat.
More heat means more danger to use your alpha
More danger to use your alpha bring more risk of overheating
More risk of overheating mean you have to use just a few of yours weapons to stay in the battle

Meaning half your firepower won't see any real use.


That en the fact that Clans weapons generate more heat, and that the Stalkers got some preeetttyyy nice quircks about there weapons basicly means that the Stalker while using less guns can deal more damage and over a longer period of time.

But of course, when guys like you only watch from one side, easy to say Clans mech are OP. Heck, they are so OP the entire Inner Sphere is under Clan Control now.

(Poor Smoke Jaguar and Ghost Bear...Only Clan Wolf and Jade Falcons are holding a bit. )

[Nightshade24]

jaxjace, on 15 May 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

Timbers can mount more firepower than XL stalkers, sit down.

Stalkers got 4 high points, extreme large laser quirks on the 4N, and no ghost heat for 3 firing.

That's more range firepower then 2 timberwolfs can do.

On top of that, an LRM stalker will beat an LRM timberwolf any day. And this is using a standard engine stalker as an EG.

[IraqiWalker]

KuroNyra, on 15 May 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

More firepower means more heat.
More heat means more danger to use your alpha
More danger to use your alpha bring more risk of overheating
More risk of overheating mean you have to use just a few of yours weapons to stay in the battle

So you mean there's a balance between more firepower, and better management, and that if you go with lots of damage, you need fire discipline?

[Uncle Totty]

KursedVixen, on 15 May 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

soo I still don't get it in TT where the jumjets fixed on the s configuration of the timberwolf?

and what about the nova and summoner? where they fixed on those chassis?

also

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a5d5249421d7a7



personanly i'd go for 15's to get some more double heat sinks or something but yeah.

I know that build...

PS. THIS is more to MY taste.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cd991daa6d96939

Edited by Nathan K, 15 May 2015 - 02:33 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

IraqiWalker, on 15 May 2015 - 02:18 AM, said:

So you mean there's a balance between more firepower, and better management, and that if you go with lots of damage, you need fire discipline?

No he means that IS mechs with quirks are OP as **** and clans can't do **** right now thats why they are losing their planets.

[IraqiWalker]

JohnnyWayne, on 15 May 2015 - 02:48 AM, said:

No he means that IS mechs with quirks are OP as **** and clans can't do **** right now thats why they are losing their planets.

What, and the mercs not being there to bolster the clan numbers has nothing to do with that, right?

Virutally all progress made by the clans across CW was almost always thanks to having the mercs on their side. Also, there are like 60 people that play CW.

[Nightshade24]

KursedVixen, on 15 May 2015 - 12:41 AM, said:

soo I still don't get it in TT where the jumjets fixed on the s configuration of the timberwolf?

and what about the nova and summoner? where they fixed on those chassis?

also

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7a5d5249421d7a7



personanly i'd go for 15's to get some more double heat sinks or something but yeah.

technically?

Everything on an IS mech is hardwired. way custom variants come and go is to change the construction in the factory as it's being or not yet built. Or expensive reffiting of an already made chassis

Kinda like baking a cake, if you bake a cake with bla bla ingredients, you are stuck with it when you are done.

You simply can't go at the end "lets remove the chocolate and add jam!" unless you use expensive equipment to painfully take those stuff out without destroying to much of the cake and then add what you want.

Clans are not hard wired but getting outside of the omnitech stuff does have issues and it still is a procedure)

[xMintaka]

IronClaws, on 03 December 2014 - 05:28 PM, said:

This can be applied to any mech, but the fact is that the TW, especially the S is not OP. The TW may be able to hold massive amounts of firepower, but most builds run very hot. Also, the TW has large hit boxes, especially when LRMs are equipped and it is less nimble than many other heavies.

Less nimble? Than what? An XL350 Dragon, sure. Pretty much every other IS heavy feels like it's stuck in molasses compared to the Timber Wolf.

[Appogee]

KuroNyra, on 15 May 2015 - 02:01 AM, said:

More firepower means more heat.
More heat means more danger to use your alpha
More danger to use your alpha bring more risk of overheating
More risk of overheating mean you have to use just a few of yours weapons to stay in the battle

Ok, now I've heard everything. "Because a Timberwolf has so many weapons, it's at a disadvantage."

As if using a heat-efficient built, not using all its hardpoints, and not alphaing, aren't options for Timberwolves.

The level of ridiculousness in this thread just went off the scale.

Incidentally, I have all the Clan Mechs and almost all the IS Mechs, and I play both sides frequently. And I can tell you from experience of thousands of matches that Crows and Timbies are the by far the most effective chassis in their weight classes. Yes, IS has some effective variants. But thanks to all the Clan whining, even several of those are now planned to get nerfed this Tuesday.

Uncle Russ is happy to oblige because he is in the arms supply trade and he can sell more bad mechs (Resistance 2, anyone?) by simply making the good mechs less effective.

The current state of the CW map has no bearing on the balance discussion. Fact is, Clans got so bored winning Tukkayid that they can't even be bothered to defend their planets at the moment. I don't blame them, either. Playing Timbies and Crows for five days straight is boring, for any competent pilot.

Edited by Appogee, 15 May 2015 - 03:20 AM.

[Nightshade24]

Lunatech, on 15 May 2015 - 02:56 AM, said:

Less nimble? Than what? An XL350 Dragon, sure. Pretty much every other IS heavy feels like it's stuck in molasses compared to the Timber Wolf.

you know having a XL 375 is kinda bleh... I would rather take a XL 300 in a timberwolf then a 375. Even if you can say... put a XL 375 on a heavy mech like a cataphract... would you?