82 replies to this topic

[Dago Red]

Yanlowen Cage, on 10 November 2014 - 07:15 AM, said:

Point that some of you seem to be missing is that that problem of "ECM" was a nail sticking up. But instead of using a hammer to fix it, PGI used a howitzer.

No using a Howitzer would have been ripping ECM out of the game while screaming KALI MA KALI MA and starting over on it from scratch instead of trying to fix an inherently flawed design.

BAP should counter it out to your full sensor range as far as I'm concerned. And that's coming from someone who has all of two mechs mounting LRM's only one of which could be considered a boat.

Of course the best nerf it could have given would have been to provide the pugs with in game voice chat.

[Angel of Annihilation]

BAP as it is now totally obsoletes ECM being used as a screening tool. The Kit Fox's role for example was to provide front line screening for his team to prevent 2nd line missile boats from raining LRMs on his team once the two teams engaged. It also had the role of screening short range flanking movement as well.

With a 360m on a device any and all mechs can mount, the Kit Fox can't preform this role. For one it relied on ECM keeping it off the radar so that it could survive in the front lines. Secondly, since more engagements are at under 400m, as soon as the two teams are engaged, all cover against LRMs is negated. Lastly, short range screens are also negated which means no surprise ambushes or flanking maneuvers.

Of course this doesn't just effect the Kit Fox, rather it effects any mech attempting to use ECM to screen the team and generally pushes ECM mech almost entirely into the role of backline sniper rather than team support which is a damn shame considering BAP removes a role, in a game that lacks roles in the first place.

Additionally, prior to the BAP change, LRM boats had to rely much more on TAG and NARC giving rise to yet another role, that of Electronic Warfare/Spotter mechs. However now that ECM as a screening tool has been rendered useless, there is really no need for TAG or NARC yet again so yet another role that has been removed by the BAP change.

Further, now the game is easier. Instead of having to guess at the config and damage levels of enemy mechs under the cover of ECM screens and having to rely on your eyeballs to spot targets, we are back to everything immediately available and easily targeted which means they have generally dumbed down the complexity of the game making it more boring and dull. Also using camo and muted colors actually had a purpose because of the fact ECM made it so alot of times the enemy had to rely on visually IDing enemy mechs rather than the radar just showing them that they were there. Again another loss to the game and more dumbing down of complexity.

Honestly the change is one of the worst ever, all because people found it too hard to have to visually target or had to rely on teammates to make their LRMs useful. Damn shame across the board.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

I thought ECMs range of UNLIMITED was a little over the top, so 360m for BAP seem tame by comparison.

[Ultimax]

UrsusMorologus, on 10 November 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Its no more broken than perfect-immunity ECM

How many chassis can mount ECM? How many can mount active probe?

By perfect immunity do you mean from LRMs? Even though there was already BAP, TAG and NARC?

IDF is a mess of a mechanic, it needs to be gutted completely so LRMs can be revamped into a good weapon system and not a seesaw of feast-or-famine gameplay.

[Phex]

Viktor Drake, on 10 November 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

BAP as it is now totally obsoletes ECM being used as a screening tool. The Kit Fox's role for example was to provide front line screening for his team to prevent 2nd line missile boats from raining LRMs on his team once the two teams engaged. It also had the role of screening short range flanking movement as well.

With a 360m on a device any and all mechs can mount, the Kit Fox can't preform this role. For one it relied on ECM keeping it off the radar so that it could survive in the front lines. Secondly, since more engagements are at under 400m, as soon as the two teams are engaged, all cover against LRMs is negated. Lastly, short range screens are also negated which means no surprise ambushes or flanking maneuvers.

Of course this doesn't just effect the Kit Fox, rather it effects any mech attempting to use ECM to screen the team and generally pushes ECM mech almost entirely into the role of backline sniper rather than team support which is a damn shame considering BAP removes a role, in a game that lacks roles in the first place.

Additionally, prior to the BAP change, LRM boats had to rely much more on TAG and NARC giving rise to yet another role, that of Electronic Warfare/Spotter mechs. However now that ECM as a screening tool has been rendered useless, there is really no need for TAG or NARC yet again so yet another role that has been removed by the BAP change.

Further, now the game is easier. Instead of having to guess at the config and damage levels of enemy mechs under the cover of ECM screens and having to rely on your eyeballs to spot targets, we are back to everything immediately available and easily targeted which means they have generally dumbed down the complexity of the game making it more boring and dull. Also using camo and muted colors actually had a purpose because of the fact ECM made it so alot of times the enemy had to rely on visually IDing enemy mechs rather than the radar just showing them that they were there. Again another loss to the game and more dumbing down of complexity.

Honestly the change is one of the worst ever, all because people found it too hard to have to visually target or had to rely on teammates to make their LRMs useful. Damn shame across the board.

^THIS^ No more to say about it!

Edited by Phex, 10 November 2014 - 08:16 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 10 November 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

I thought ECMs range of UNLIMITED was a little over the top, so 360m for BAP seem tame by comparison.

It is not unlimited though. It is 180m. It only covers 180m around it. Any mech not within 180m is completely exposed. People seem to forget this.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 10 November 2014 - 08:30 AM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

until PGI revmap ECM into Guardian ECM any changes that affect easy mode jebus box are welcome.

[Livewyr]

Ultimatum X, on 10 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

How many chassis can mount ECM? How many can mount active probe?

How many pieces of equipment give a stealth shield where you cannot be targeted at any range outside 200 meters?

[Sjorpha]

Viktor Drake, on 10 November 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

BAP as it is now totally obsoletes ECM being used as a screening tool. The Kit Fox's role for example was to provide front line screening for his team to prevent 2nd line missile boats from raining LRMs on his team once the two teams engaged. It also had the role of screening short range flanking movement as well.

With a 360m on a device any and all mechs can mount, the Kit Fox can't preform this role. For one it relied on ECM keeping it off the radar so that it could survive in the front lines. Secondly, since more engagements are at under 400m, as soon as the two teams are engaged, all cover against LRMs is negated. Lastly, short range screens are also negated which means no surprise ambushes or flanking maneuvers.

Of course this doesn't just effect the Kit Fox, rather it effects any mech attempting to use ECM to screen the team and generally pushes ECM mech almost entirely into the role of backline sniper rather than team support which is a damn shame considering BAP removes a role, in a game that lacks roles in the first place.

Additionally, prior to the BAP change, LRM boats had to rely much more on TAG and NARC giving rise to yet another role, that of Electronic Warfare/Spotter mechs. However now that ECM as a screening tool has been rendered useless, there is really no need for TAG or NARC yet again so yet another role that has been removed by the BAP change.

Further, now the game is easier. Instead of having to guess at the config and damage levels of enemy mechs under the cover of ECM screens and having to rely on your eyeballs to spot targets, we are back to everything immediately available and easily targeted which means they have generally dumbed down the complexity of the game making it more boring and dull. Also using camo and muted colors actually had a purpose because of the fact ECM made it so alot of times the enemy had to rely on visually IDing enemy mechs rather than the radar just showing them that they were there. Again another loss to the game and more dumbing down of complexity.

Honestly the change is one of the worst ever, all because people found it too hard to have to visually target or had to rely on teammates to make their LRMs useful. Damn shame across the board.

This+1

I don't use ECM much but I miss the challenge it provided in targeting. Targeting information should be a lot more hard earned.

[Pjwned]

The solution is to just make ECM not be so ridiculous, I thought there was some sort of serious initiative for that earlier and then the matter of ECM just kind of went nowhere.

Edited by Pjwned, 10 November 2014 - 09:13 AM.

[Livewyr]

Pjwned, on 10 November 2014 - 09:12 AM, said:

The solution is to just make ECM not be so ridiculous, I thought there was some sort of serious initiative for that earlier and then the matter of ECM just kind of went nowhere.

It is apparently waiting on "completion of townhall meetings."

...

[Yanlowen Cage]

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

How many pieces of equipment give a stealth shield where you cannot be targeted at any range outside 200 meters?

except by tag, narc and counter ecm, and oh yeah the good ole Mark 1 eye ball for direct fire. All ecm really really shields against absolutely (conditionally) is lurms. it's other use is screening for sneak attacks and flanks. ECM does not provide any protection from direct fire weapons, EXCEPT, that you can not lock onto the target under ecm that you can see. you can still get range info anyway. thus knowing how far you have to target.

[Lil Cthulhu]

I'm sorry, did they do something that took the wind out of your broken jesus box?

[Ultimax]

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

How many pieces of equipment give a stealth shield where you cannot be targeted at any range outside 200 meters?

You say that as if there should be more of them, would you like more equipment that did that?


If IDF is ever dealt with, then we can deal with ECM.

In addition, having some form of a stealth mechanic is good IMO - so unless the devs add some huge passive/active radar system like Roland suggested, then right now this is all we have.

[UrsusMorologus]

Viktor Drake, on 10 November 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

It is not unlimited though. It is 180m. It only covers 180m around it. Any mech not within 180m is completely exposed. People seem to forget this.

Any mech in ECM bubble is immune from target lock except in very close range. BAP extends lock capability to medium range. Stay 360m or more and you cannot be locked without TAG reaching out. Immunity nonsense.

Edited by UrsusMorologus, 10 November 2014 - 09:26 AM.

[topgun505]

What they say and what they do are two different things in this case.

Less you say?

Uh huh. And yet they throw in NARC rewards. TAG rewards. Flanking rewards (which, initially, you could easily get with LRMs). And now the BAP change.

Sorry. But a 10% damage reduction is not going to do squat to dissuade people from boating LRMs when you have all those money making bonuses available.

You want to see less LRMs? Add ghost heat (yeah, I know, I don't like it either, but this is what we have to work with unless we want to do a complete game overhaul) to any mech that mounts more than 40 tubes-worth. Regardless of fire mode. I.e. even if you chsin them, if you mount 3 LRM-20, each one has x amount of additional heat added per shot regardless of they are chained or group fired.

Like I said, ugly solution, and definitely not elegant but that's about the only way I could see them fixing it without introducing things like hardpoint size restrictions.

El Bandito, on 10 November 2014 - 04:40 AM, said:

Eat your own words.

https://twitter.com/...893083481210880

PGI actually wanted less LRMs, hence the 10% damage nerf on LRMs, but being PGI, they had managed to inadvertently offset the nerfs with BAP changes and LRM quirks.

[Almond Brown]

BAP negates the carries ECM but not its ability to cover allies inside the bubble. With BAP set at 360m, anyone screening ahead of an ECM Mech should be able to get to 181m before becoming detectable/target-able and thus give those BAP carriers a hard time maintaining their counter range. 181m is not considered very far in MWO and is incidentally, iirc, 1m outside of min LRM range.

[Aiden Skye]

Livewyr, on 10 November 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

How many pieces of equipment give a stealth shield where you cannot be targeted at any range outside 200 meters?

Not targetable that's not true. I used to run a tag on my catapult k2 just for the purpose of uncovering ecm. It's exactly the same situation where everyone complains about lrms but most people don't run ams...instead try to squeeze every last bit of fire power out of their mech.

But that said, this change is just a band aid. What we need is ecm working closer to how it works in lore, and a better information warfare system.

[Ultimax]

W A R K H A N, on 10 November 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

But that said, this change is just a band aid. What we need is ecm working closer to how it works in lore, and a better information warfare system.

The first step to a better information warfare system is likely removing shared locks without the specific use of TAG or NARC.


People harp on role warfare all the time, but shared locks that anyone can provide just by clicking R to allow for IDF is one of the major impediments to adding a valuable spotting role to scouts.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yanlowen Cage, on 10 November 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

except by tag, narc and counter ecm, and oh yeah the good ole Mark 1 eye ball for direct fire. All ecm really really shields against absolutely (conditionally) is lurms. it's other use is screening for sneak attacks and flanks. ECM does not provide any protection from direct fire weapons, EXCEPT, that you can not lock onto the target under ecm that you can see. you can still get range info anyway. thus knowing how far you have to target.

This exactly.

ECM is not a cloaking device. You can still visually spot ECM mechs either equiped or screened by ECM and engage them just as effectively with direct fire as you can a mech not screened. Only two weapons were actually effected. LRMs which most agree can be borderline OPed if no counters are available and Streaks which aren't that widely used and not because of ECM.

So basically leaving ECM as it was had very little effect on anything except players had to pay greater attention to the battlefield and couldn't rely on being spoonfed info. LRM boats, the one group effected, actually had to rely on TAG and NARC and team mates spotting for them like an indirect fire system should which helped keep LRMegeddon in check. No one lost except maybe those teams that were occasionally unlucky and got dropped into a match with no ECM cover but breaking ECM to fix that situation wasn't the correct fix.