506 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

GernMiester, on 16 November 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

RnR is a terrible idea, If you cant figure out why I cant be bothered to explain it.

if you can't bother to offer something constructive then we can't be bothered to care about your opinion

Satan n stuff, on 16 November 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

So give us an example, how would you do it?

found it
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

[Squally160]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

"R&R would destroy this game"

I think
War Thunder
World of Tanks
World of Planes
DDO
SWTOR (both of these games require you to repair equipment and some on this list can even cause loss of money in the higher tiers)

didn't get that memo.

SO I'm just curious, why is it that an R&R system would kill THIS game, but those others are doing just fine? (I could probably find you more examples if you really want them but I figured WT and WoT are good since they're very successful games and do quite well with R&R systems)

Why is MWO different? Why would an R&R system kill this game specifically when it's a proven fact that R&R systems do NOT kill other games?


maybe you can answer my question then?

One major thing that you arent realizing, is that games like WoT and WT, have tier systems.

You know, when youre out grinding your tankbucks that your low tier whatever will never meet a giant, t10 tank. you will be matched up against equivalent threat targets. sure, a few might have some upgrades to make them better, but not by huge margins. Compared to here, where a stock mech vs a DHS end'd and completely customized mech is a much bigger threat than your single heatsink small laser locust. Should every atlas pilot be forced to lsoe money every game? maybe, idk. but not while the people being forced to grind up spacebucks have no choice but to fight those mechs.

Without tiers to separate the "farm money mechs" from the "big endgame" mechs, there isnt a point.

[xengk]

Bishop Steiner, on 16 November 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

good spitball though.

One other thought, is perhaps the further from stock, the less the "House" covers. Aka, the Quartermasters order in bulk stock components for mechs. Mind you, some things, like Endo and DHS would need to be exempt as they are essentially mandatory. But perhaps if you are a Davion with a Stock CN9-A, you get 100% repair on ac10, LRM10 and medium lasers, 75% refit for LB-X, different sized LRM launchers/artemis, and MPL, and only 50% coverage for a Gauss, Large laser and SRMs/Streaks. So then you have to decide, is it worth it, on average from match score and rewards to alter it heavily? Sometimes, it may well be, where as some might be better stock (or choosing a CN9-D, instead).

I dunno, I think things like that could be huge, but one thing would be needed is that rewards would have to be in general, generous enough it does not become a more onerous grind.....yet losses can hurt enough to make Min/Max a matter of risk/reward.

The compies won't like it, and yes, it could make it harder in some cases for new players who make poor decisions. But I guess I am not part of the cup stacking, everyone gets a prize for participating generation of the wuss.

Also, mind you, I think all this should be for CW ONLY. Leave non CW as casual mode, but make CW hard, but rewarding enough to make it overall worth stepping up to the big leagues. And give us more depth so it's not JUST about twitch skills.

House favourite equipment sounds like cool idea, I like idea that build flavour and character for the Houses.
Similar to how each House would favour a particular set of weapon like previously proposed.
Best if it can be Lore based, is there a list? I know Kurita have an affinity for PPC, not sure about the others.
An arbitrarily list of equipment might rustle some jimmies.


Separating CW and non CW for the purpose of R&R might be difficult.
As per the latest Town Hall, CW is no longer windowed and will be open 24/7.
Unless equipment destruction only occurs in CW match, but that would mean player who are not participating in CW are still reaping the reward of Faction R&R.


Speaking of CW, I would like to see CW influence the price of equipment.
Example; if a house capture a major PPC manufacturing planet, members of that house get to enjoy cheaper PPC price while everyone else have to face market shortage and buy at higher price.
This could make CW more strategic, a house can attempt to starve his opponent of equipment and ammo so that they will face a poorly equipped defender.
Clans sweeping in and taking over manufacturing planets? IS houses better stop their infighting and recapture those planet from the Clans to keep the spice supply flowing.

[Sandpit]

Squally160, on 16 November 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

One major thing that you arent realizing, is that games like WoT and WT, have tier systems.

You know, when youre out grinding your tankbucks that your low tier whatever will never meet a giant, t10 tank. you will be matched up against equivalent threat targets. sure, a few might have some upgrades to make them better, but not by huge margins. Compared to here, where a stock mech vs a DHS end'd and completely customized mech is a much bigger threat than your single heatsink small laser locust. Should every atlas pilot be forced to lsoe money every game? maybe, idk. but not while the people being forced to grind up spacebucks have no choice but to fight those mechs.

Without tiers to separate the "farm money mechs" from the "big endgame" mechs, there isnt a point.

Tiers doesn't affect the system. You're using that as an argument for "there's just no point to it" when those examples are given in direct contradiction to those saying "R&R would "destroy" this game!" which is simply unfounded hyperbole because they don't like that idea of having to take into account that if they do things like spam LRMs nonstop and burn through 10 tons of ammo without making much of an impact in regards to damage and such to increase their rewards, they might actually have to pay for that ammo.

[Sandpit]

xengk, on 16 November 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

House favourite equipment sounds like cool idea, I like idea that build flavour and character for the Houses.
Similar to how each House would favour a particular set of weapon like previously proposed.
Best if it can be Lore based, is there a list? I know Kurita have an affinity for PPC, not sure about the others.
An arbitrarily list of equipment might rustle some jimmies.


Separating CW and non CW for the purpose of R&R might be difficult.
As per the latest Town Hall, CW is no longer windowed and will be open 24/7.
Unless equipment destruction only occurs in CW match, but that would mean player who are not participating in CW are still reaping the reward of Faction R&R.


Speaking of CW, I would like to see CW influence the price of equipment.
Example; if a house capture a major PPC manufacturing planet, members of that house get to enjoy cheaper PPC price while everyone else have to face market shortage and buy at higher price.
This could make CW more strategic, a house can attempt to starve his opponent of equipment and ammo so that they will face a poorly equipped defender.
Clans sweeping in and taking over manufacturing planets? IS houses better stop their infighting and recapture those planet from the Clans to keep the spice supply flowing.

That's where LP can come into play. CW could easily use LP as the currency for CW separating it from cbill earnings in pub matches.

Cbills can be used to buy new stuff like mechs and customization, while LP could be used to pay for R&R

It would take some tweaking and adjusting but it could be done. Mechs could be "locked" for CW play until repaired either through time or paying the fees.

[ToxinTractor]

Ah yea... I remember when there was RnR.. and I remember that the RnR cost would go up if you used any mech that had ferro armor, endo steel, and double heat sinks. Man did those days suck. RnR was rightfully burned at a stake and all of the beta testers cheered out in glee.

RnR is past its prime, MWOs game model does not have room to fit a RnR system with out totally reworking how the game works. As vass pointed out, RnR systems work better in games that have a tier/tech system in them, where as MWO does not have such system.

Its more beneficial for MWO to focus on having a proper roll system or a proper CW system since that is what MWO is. Big factions beating the ever lasting crap out of each other until there is one victor. Any system that is added to complicate that model just takes away from the game. You are not here to play WoT or WT. You are here to drive a class of mech, with a loadout you your self set up on it. And it is up to you to work with your 11 other team mates in some manner to win the fight for your faction.

[Satan n stuff]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

found it
http://mwomercs.com/...__fromsearch__1

That looks like just another system where bad or inexperienced players can't afford to run good builds, which just makes them hate this game and quit. You know, the very reason R&R was removed the first time.

[Sandpit]

Satan n stuff, on 16 November 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

That looks like just another system where bad or inexperienced players can't afford to run good builds, which just makes them hate this game and quit. You know, the very reason R&R was removed the first time.

Two things
One, I specifically over the course of that thread (as did several others) discuss ways to specifically combat what you're implying. Remember, there's several pages where discussions helped refine all of those kinds o fissues

Two, this idea is for CW so no, new players wouldn't be "unfairly" impacted as CW is an optional mode that nobody is required to play in.

[xengk]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

That's where LP can come into play. CW could easily use LP as the currency for CW separating it from cbill earnings in pub matches.

Cbills can be used to buy new stuff like mechs and customization, while LP could be used to pay for R&R

It would take some tweaking and adjusting but it could be done. Mechs could be "locked" for CW play until repaired either through time or paying the fees.

[Vassago Rain]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

Two things
One, I specifically over the course of that thread (as did several others) discuss ways to specifically combat what you're implying. Remember, there's several pages where discussions helped refine all of those kinds o fissues

Two, this idea is for CW so no, new players wouldn't be "unfairly" impacted as CW is an optional mode that nobody is required to play in.

CW is as optional as double heatsinks and endo, Sandpit.

Please stop. You're better than this.

[Marmon Rzohr]

HlynkaCG, on 16 November 2014 - 04:41 AM, said:

You already hit the big reason right there. I wasted many hours in MW2, 3 and 4 playing Mech Tycoon. If you don't want to pay R&R join a house.

The other reason was to reward people for piloting stock or near stock builds by giving them substantially higher cbill earnings compared to customized mechs.

I don't see what you want to say, that R&R should be for people who aren't part of a faction ? If so, that's not really fair and people will understandably dislike it I imagine.

The stock mech argument is bad IMHO. It essentially gives people more C-Bills for playing much, much, much worse mechs, that is you are encouraging people to have a horrible experience (and yes 90% of stock mechs are an absolute horror to play).

HlynkaCG, on 16 November 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

[/size]

You say "just a tax" like it's an argument. The 15.2 million cbills you pay for that shiny new Mad Cat is just a tax, ditto the 600,000 you pay for a Gauss Rifle, and the 40,000 you pay for a strike. They add about as much to the game as R&R would yet I don't see you leading a crusade to eliminate cbill costs from the game, why is that?

Tax != price.

The 15 mil you pay for a Timber Wolf is something you give in order to get something back - in this case a mech. For the added cost of R&R you don't get anything. You don't get a new mech, or a module or a consumable which you can use. It's simply a price you have to pay for using something you already have (your mech) - meaning, a tax.

Taxes are a negative motivator for consumers. Prices aren't. You are happy to pay a price for what you want. You however are never happy to pay taxes. R&R costs add about as much joy to the game as taxes do in real life.

Not to mention that the point of a game is to be enjoyable and having to pay C-Bills to use the mech you've spent tens of hours (!) grinding isn't really enjoyable.

I get that people would like some immersion. I would like more of that as well. But there are numerous ways to add immersion to the game which have no negative connotations and are much more effective. Like flavor text. Or units buying bases, dropships etc. Or a mechlab you can walk around in.

In the end if you like the idea so much then it can be implemented as a small penalty (i really do mean tiny) to the points you get toward your faction in CW (like this pilot always wrecks his/her gear, that's wasteful). Or in many other ways which convey the immersive factor without adding more grind to an already quite grindy game.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 16 November 2014 - 01:40 PM.

[Fut]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

It's a matter of implementation, not a matter of this mechanic being some game killing thing. The ones arguing against it simply don't want to worry about anything other than "I played I want cbills!", which is fine, give them the pub matches. CW should have an economy.

A huge problem is that people don't seem to have any patience. They don't like the idea of having to pay (anything, whether it's Cbills, MC, or some version of LP) for repairs, but they also don't like the idea of having to wait for repairs. It's impossible to make some people happy, and unfortunately these people are some of the most vocal.

GernMiester, on 16 November 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

RnR is a terrible idea, If you cant figure out why I cant be bothered to explain it.

Well, Gern, how about you humour us and explain it a little bit... You did take the time to pipe up in this thread, so enlighten us please.

Edited by Fut, 16 November 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Sandpit]

Vassago Rain, on 16 November 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

CW is as optional as double heatsinks and endo, Sandpit.

Please stop. You're better than this.

whatever dude. Yea CW is required right? All thsoe casual players who care nothing about playing in a campaign are somehow required to play it to earn something in this game right?
You should just stop dude. Plain and simple you're trying to use hyperbole to scare people away from the idea of R&R and using the previous and horribly implemented R&R as an example when not a single solitary person in any of these threads is asking for that implementation to return.

[Satan n stuff]

Fut, on 16 November 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

A huge problem is that people don't seem to have any patience. They don't like the idea of having to pay (anything, whether it's Cbills, MC, or some version of LP) for repairs, but they also don't like the idea of having to wait for repairs. It's impossible to make some people happy, and unfortunately these people are some of the most vocal.

It's not that hard, just don't try to shoehorn in a system that serves no purpose when you know a lot of people will hate it.
I've yet to see one convincing reason why we should have R&R from you or anyone else and not a single workable implementation. If you fail to produce either of those you certainly don't get to dismiss anyone who doesn't agree with you.

[Sandpit]

Fut, on 16 November 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

A huge problem is that people don't seem to have any patience. They don't like the idea of having to pay (anything, whether it's Cbills, MC, or some version of LP) for repairs, but they also don't like the idea of having to wait for repairs. It's impossible to make some people happy, and unfortunately these people are some of the most vocal.

I see it more as an entitlement problem. People think they should be able to play for free and earn everything as easily and as fast as those who do pay.
Throw in the "modern" gamer mentality of insta-gratification and those that are used to grabbing a new game and immediately entering every cheat code possible in the name of beating the game quickly and you have the mentality that you see here from a lot of players.
Entitlement and "i want it nao!" and "I should be able to enter god mode and destroy everything" and you get resistance to any and everything that might possibly make the game more challenging in the name of "It will ruin the game because then I might actually have to play smarter instead of running out, shooting everything, and repeating nonstop so I can play pokemech and collect em all!"

Satan n stuff, on 16 November 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

when you know a lot of people will hate it.

Define "a lot" I see maybe a dozen or so people who constantly hit these threads to repeat what they said 2 years ago.

[QuantumButler]

All of you who want RnR back are meaner than Satan.

[Davers]

Khobai, on 16 November 2014 - 02:46 AM, said:

im fine with R&R being added as long as its not a tax

it should purely be a bonus for not getting damaged

and there should be no way to abuse it by dodging fights or afking.

But isn't 'dodging fights' a great way to not get damaged? More high alpha pop tarts/hill humping snipefests. Thats's what everyone loves, right?

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:56 AM, said:

"R&R would destroy this game"

I think
War Thunder
World of Tanks
World of Planes
DDO
SWTOR (both of these games require you to repair equipment and some on this list can even cause loss of money in the higher tiers)

didn't get that memo.

SO I'm just curious, why is it that an R&R system would kill THIS game, but those others are doing just fine? (I could probably find you more examples if you really want them but I figured WT and WoT are good since they're very successful games and do quite well with R&R systems)

Why is MWO different? Why would an R&R system kill this game specifically when it's a proven fact that R&R systems do NOT kill other games?


maybe you can answer my question then?

Those games have tiers of mechs that make sure you are fighting near equal 'tech level' opponents. Some of the games have PVE that allow you to grind easy money.

Khobai, on 16 November 2014 - 03:02 AM, said:

R&R implemented the same way it was previously would in fact kill the game.

however R&R implemented properly, i.e. not a tax, would probably work fine.

There has never been an R&R suggestion that wasn't a tax, in either time or money.

HlynkaCG, on 16 November 2014 - 06:57 AM, said:

[/size]

You say "just a tax" like it's an argument. The 15.2 million cbills you pay for that shiny new Mad Cat is just a tax, ditto the 600,000 you pay for a Gauss Rifle, and the 40,000 you pay for a strike. They add about as much to the game as R&R would yet I don't see you leading a crusade to eliminate cbill costs from the game, why is that?

A game without Cbills would be great, but much harder to monetize.

Fut, on 16 November 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'd use a system quite similar to the way War Thunder works. Where you can repair any Mech (even if completely destroyed) for free, but it takes time. The larger the Mech and the more damage to be fixed, the longer the repair takes. If you don't want to wait you can spend some Cbills or MC to have the repair done instantly.

It's simple, and there's no "automatic tax".

Edit:
There's also potential to expand on this concept, and have Mech Technicians in our MechLab. Allow people to sink Cbills, and GXP into training these workers. The better they get, the faster and cheaper they can complete repairs.

There is a tax on time. One that can easily be circumvented by the space rich or real cash.


Very simply, there has never been a suggested system that doesn't penalize new/free/bad players much more than veteran/spending/good players.

[Satan n stuff]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 01:58 PM, said:

Define "a lot" I see maybe a dozen or so people who constantly hit these threads to repeat what they said 2 years ago.

That right there displays a stunning lack of self awareness.
How about you read that post again and respond to the rest of it? Give me a reason, give me something that works and maybe I'd agree with you, but you haven't and you won't.

[ollo]

Fut, on 16 November 2014 - 10:28 AM, said:

I'd use a system quite similar to the way War Thunder works. Where you can repair any Mech (even if completely destroyed) for free, but it takes time. The larger the Mech and the more damage to be fixed, the longer the repair takes. If you don't want to wait you can spend some Cbills or MC to have the repair done instantly.

It's simple, and there's no "automatic tax".

Edit:
There's also potential to expand on this concept, and have Mech Technicians in our MechLab. Allow people to sink Cbills, and GXP into training these workers. The better they get, the faster and cheaper they can complete repairs.

LOL, now that's a system i'm kind of OK with. As is everyone that has 30+ mechs in the garage. New players will leave instantly, though, but who really needs them anyway?

[ollo]

Squally160, on 16 November 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

One major thing that you arent realizing, is that games like WoT and WT, have tier systems.

You know, when youre out grinding your tankbucks that your low tier whatever will never meet a giant, t10 tank. you will be matched up against equivalent threat targets. sure, a few might have some upgrades to make them better, but not by huge margins. Compared to here, where a stock mech vs a DHS end'd and completely customized mech is a much bigger threat than your single heatsink small laser locust. Should every atlas pilot be forced to lsoe money every game? maybe, idk. but not while the people being forced to grind up spacebucks have no choice but to fight those mechs.

Without tiers to separate the "farm money mechs" from the "big endgame" mechs, there isnt a point.

Plus, i have a friend that recently started to play MWO. He is the ONLY one i know personally that started MWO (two others tried it once and left instantly). And he switched from WoT. Wanna know why? Because he couldn't stand the upper tier games where he was the best player and lost money after R&R.

Edited by ollo, 16 November 2014 - 02:15 PM.