506 replies to this topic

[Fut]

Satan n stuff, on 16 November 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

I've yet to see one convincing reason why we should have R&R from you or anyone else and not a single workable implementation.

That's funny... I've yet to see one convincing reason why we shouldn't have R&R.
Stalemate?

[ollo]

Fut, on 16 November 2014 - 02:19 PM, said:

That's funny... I've yet to see one convincing reason why we shouldn't have R&R.
Stalemate?

Nope. The problem is that you apparently weren't around while R&R was in place. That was the time of a million reasons why we shouldn't have R&R. Satan won.

[Sandpit]

ollo, on 16 November 2014 - 02:21 PM, said:

Nope. The problem is that you apparently weren't around while R&R was in place. That was the time of a million reasons why we shouldn't have R&R. Satan won.

I was
Try again

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 16 November 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

But isn't 'dodging fights' a great way to not get damaged? More high alpha pop tarts/hill humping snipefests. Thats's what everyone loves, right?


Those games have tiers of mechs that make sure you are fighting near equal 'tech level' opponents. Some of the games have PVE that allow you to grind easy money.



There has never been an R&R suggestion that wasn't a tax, in either time or money.



A game without Cbills would be great, but much harder to monetize.



There is a tax on time. One that can easily be circumvented by the space rich or real cash.


Very simply, there has never been a suggested system that doesn't penalize new/free/bad players much more than veteran/spending/good players.

you know better Davers. Everything you just posted I specifically addressed in the thread I started a few months ago. I specifically listed several options on how to prevent everything you just listed. I also (as I recall) remember you agreeing that it could work for a CW option and kept out of the pub match area.

[JD R]

R&R means costs=income nerv

to stop that an income buff is needed.

At the end you generate a system where the standard income dont change and a few player find holes in the system an generate more .

[Sandpit]

JD R, on 16 November 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

R&R means costs=income nerv

to stop that an income buff is needed.

At the end you generate a system where the standard income dont change and a few player find holes in the system an generate more .

Once again
Use LP in CW as the currency and mechanic for this. Does not touch your cbill earnings in pub matches. Problem solved

[Davers]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

you know better Davers. Everything you just posted I specifically addressed in the thread I started a few months ago. I specifically listed several options on how to prevent everything you just listed. I also (as I recall) remember you agreeing that it could work for a CW option and kept out of the pub match area.

No, I said I wouldn't complain if it was a CW Only option. I really don't see any real benefit of an RnR system. Not to mention how it would fit in a game where half the players are piloting mechs that can't use downgraded equipment. No one has actually came forward and said exactly what builds/mechs they are trying to penalize or discourage with RnR.

For it to mean anything, the penalties would have to be severe- much more severe than anything people are posting about. In your system of 'timed repairs' I would think having an assault mech destroyed would take a month or two to repair it. Or expenses in the 10's of millions of Cbills. Otherwise who cares?

1. I am not a fan of RnR. I think it's addition would be of dubious benefit.
2. If it was added, I would want it to have real, actual meaning.

I think RnR is just one of those things we can't find common ground on.

[Sandpit]

Davers, on 16 November 2014 - 02:42 PM, said:

No, I said I wouldn't complain if it was a CW Only option. I really don't see any real benefit of an RnR system. Not to mention how it would fit in a game where half the players are piloting mechs that can't use downgraded equipment. No one has actually came forward and said exactly what builds/mechs they are trying to penalize or discourage with RnR.

For it to mean anything, the penalties would have to be severe- much more severe than anything people are posting about. In your system of 'timed repairs' I would think having an assault mech destroyed would take a month or two to repair it. Or expenses in the 10's of millions of Cbills. Otherwise who cares?

1. I am not a fan of RnR. I think it's addition would be of dubious benefit.
2. If it was added, I would want it to have real, actual meaning.

I think RnR is just one of those things we can't find common ground on.

That's my point. R&R is a mechanic that should and could be implemented in CW without affecting casual players who just want to play deathmatch in the pub queue. That solves jjust about every issue with it in regards to new players, casuals, etc.

Use LP as the currency instead of cbills in CW, or (as PGI has stated) pub matches become the "earning" queue for players to earn at a higher rate. It prevents anyone from being "punished" and using a new currency prevents there being such a huge gap between the player who just started playing yesterday and the billionaires that have been playing since day 1.

It would help level the field for everyone, add more depth to CW, and place some emphasis on playing smart in regards to build, mindlessly spamming LRMs nonstop, etc. It makes a player THINK, which is exactly what needs to happen in regards to CW.

CW is being touted as the "hardcore" mode. It's not for the feint of heart. It's for those who specifically want a harder challenge. Those that DON'T want a harder challenge have several options to play the game. This is the ONE AND ONLY mode that offers anything in the way of "hard" mode for thsoe that have wanted something more challenging for 3 years now.

[ollo]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

I was
Try again

Ok, you where there and STILL think of it as a godd idea? [Redacted]

Edited by John Wolf, 20 November 2014 - 08:32 AM.
Unconstructive

[QuantumButler]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

That's my point. R&R is a mechanic that should and could be implemented in CW without affecting casual players who just want to play deathmatch in the pub queue. That solves jjust about every issue with it in regards to new players, casuals, etc.

Use LP as the currency instead of cbills in CW, or (as PGI has stated) pub matches become the "earning" queue for players to earn at a higher rate. It prevents anyone from being "punished" and using a new currency prevents there being such a huge gap between the player who just started playing yesterday and the billionaires that have been playing since day 1.

It would help level the field for everyone, add more depth to CW, and place some emphasis on playing smart in regards to build, mindlessly spamming LRMs nonstop, etc. It makes a player THINK, which is exactly what needs to happen in regards to CW.

CW is being touted as the "hardcore" mode. It's not for the feint of heart. It's for those who specifically want a harder challenge. Those that DON'T want a harder challenge have several options to play the game. This is the ONE AND ONLY mode that offers anything in the way of "hard" mode for thsoe that have wanted something more challenging for 3 years now.

But how does this add more depth to CW? It's just another income tax, either cbills or LP, the fact is you have the same net effect of just reducing the amount of either cbills or LP you earn thus RnR entirely superfluous.

[Fut]

QuantumButler, on 16 November 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But how does this add more depth to CW? It's just another income tax, either cbills or LP, the fact is you have the same net effect of just reducing the amount of either cbills or LP you earn thus RnR entirely superfluous.

How does it add more depth to CW??? The post you quoted already answered this....

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

It would help level the field for everyone, add more depth to CW, and place some emphasis on playing smart in regards to build, mindlessly spamming LRMs nonstop, etc. It makes a player THINK, which is exactly what needs to happen in regards to CW.

CW is being touted as the "hardcore" mode. It's not for the feint of heart. It's for those who specifically want a harder challenge. Those that DON'T want a harder challenge have several options to play the game. This is the ONE AND ONLY mode that offers anything in the way of "hard" mode for thsoe that have wanted something more challenging for 3 years now.

This is how it adds depth.

Edited by Fut, 16 November 2014 - 02:57 PM.

[Sandpit]

QuantumButler, on 16 November 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

But how does this add more depth to CW? It's just another income tax, either cbills or LP, the fact is you have the same net effect of just reducing the amount of either cbills or LP you earn thus RnR entirely superfluous.

See above, read where it adds the requirement to THINK about builds, ammo spam, etc.
Of course it's superfluous. It's a video game. That's like saying "Implementing limited ammo and the need to reload" is superfluous because there's no point.
Why have a heat system?
Why not have unlimited ammo?
Why have armor limits?
Why have engine differentiation?
Heck if we do away with every limitation and mechanic in the game tons of people would enjoy it more. They could just pew pew pew to their heart's content and just play pokemech!

See how that works? If there's no limitations and such then there's no point in doing anything. Some of us want a challenge. Those that want the "i just want to shoot giant robots" already have their game play. They already have what they wanted. Those of us that want a more challenging game want things like limits, strategies, etc.

If you don't, that's fine, that's great. There's nothing wrong with that. Keep playing the game as you ahve for the past 2 years. Stop trying to make EVERYONE else play in that style though. Stop trying to make every aspect of this game cater to one mindless deathmatch mentality.

Notice how those arguing for this system aren't telling ANY of those arguing against it that they'd have to play in this manner? The only ones trying to shoehorn everyone into one particular style are the ones saying "no, it makes it "harder" and want to just shoot stuff" so everyone else should only be able to play in that manner.

[HlynkaCG]

Vassago Rain, on 16 November 2014 - 01:34 PM, said:

CW is as optional as double heatsinks and endo, Sandpit.

How do you figure?

[ollo]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 02:56 PM, said:

See above, read where it adds the requirement to THINK about builds, ammo spam, etc.
Of course it's superfluous. It's a video game. That's like saying "Implementing limited ammo and the need to reload" is superfluous because there's no point.
Why have a heat system?
Why not have unlimited ammo?
Why have armor limits?
Why have engine differentiation?

All these add to the game in various ways. R&R will most probably substract from it. If you're not talking about R&R but a LP penalty, then it might somehow work but thats a different topic and maybe even this will lead to cowardly hiding teams.

[Bishop Steiner]

ToxinTractor, on 16 November 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

Ah yea... I remember when there was RnR.. and I remember that the RnR cost would go up if you used any mech that had ferro armor, endo steel, and double heat sinks. Man did those days suck. RnR was rightfully burned at a stake and all of the beta testers cheered out in glee.

RnR is past its prime, MWOs game model does not have room to fit a RnR system with out totally reworking how the game works. As vass pointed out, RnR systems work better in games that have a tier/tech system in them, where as MWO does not have such system.

Its more beneficial for MWO to focus on having a proper roll system or a proper CW system since that is what MWO is. Big factions beating the ever lasting crap out of each other until there is one victor. Any system that is added to complicate that model just takes away from the game. You are not here to play WoT or WT. You are here to drive a class of mech, with a loadout you your self set up on it. And it is up to you to work with your 11 other team mates in some manner to win the fight for your faction.

Aw, did your XL engine, Ferro armor Arty LRM boat cost you money to run?


So sad.

[Sandpit]

ollo, on 16 November 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

All these add to the game in various ways. R&R will most probably substract from it. If you're not talking about R&R but a LP penalty, then it might somehow work but thats a different topic and maybe even this will lead to cowardly hiding teams.

No, those are "acceptable taxes" in your eyes, that's the only difference. Those limitations are "ok" in your eyes so they're "ok" to have in the game. You just don't like R&R so taht particular limitation isn't "ok" in your eyes. That's the only difference. Choose to ignore all the reasons listed. Choose to continue trying to bait and personally insult other people's intelligence because they don't agree with you.

ollo, on 16 November 2014 - 02:49 PM, said:

Ok, you where there and STILL think of it as a godd idea? Then i'll take another shot: you're dumb?

When you can have a meaningful conversation without personal insults I'll engage you in such, until then I'll continue to ignore you just as I have been.

[pyrocomp]

Really?
There are many way to add the R&R and not from the players pockets.
Start with idea that you are actually a contracted unit/individual, hence you have the contract that may include R&R on you factions cost to a certain limit. Some 10 (20-25-100-whatever) matches per day of fixed sum per day (LP dependent or some other variations possible). Play, be smart, risk in the end is you ran out of that sum. This can limit extreme builds (gauss is costy and easily destroyed) or may not (lasers fire for free). This is one of many possible ways not to hurt players much and bring something more in the game that will move it from vehicle fight present in each end every modern shooter.

[Sandpit]

pyrocomp, on 16 November 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

Really?
There are many way to add the R&R and not from the players pockets.
Start with idea that you are actually a contracted unit/individual, hence you have the contract that may include R&R on you factions cost to a certain limit. Some 10 (20-25-100-whatever) matches per day of fixed sum per day (LP dependent or some other variations possible). Play, be smart, risk in the end is you ran out of that sum. This can limit extreme builds (gauss is costy and easily destroyed) or may not (lasers fire for free). This is one of many possible ways not to hurt players much and bring something more in the game that will move it from vehicle fight present in each end every modern shooter.

That's the problem, too many don't want to play smart, balance risk vs. reward, not take their extreme build every single match and only play in one specific way that they enjoy and think every single facet of the game should only cater to them. They can't seem to stand that fact that CW might jsut cater to the REST of the players that DO want that harder challenge.

[pyrocomp]

Sandpit, on 16 November 2014 - 03:35 PM, said:

That's the problem, too many don't want to play smart, balance risk vs. reward, not take their extreme build every single match and only play in one specific way that they enjoy and think every single facet of the game should only cater to them. They can't seem to stand that fact that CW might jsut cater to the REST of the players that DO want that harder challenge.

If this is only CW related, and you have the solo queue in place, how that affects anyone's interests?

[Sandpit]

pyrocomp, on 16 November 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

If this is only CW related, and you have the solo queue in place, how that affects anyone's interests?

You'd have to ask the ones arguing against it for that answer