222 replies to this topic

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

A rather good write up about the control of a Mech and how it happens. How much of this is very good programming and what the Pilot actually does.

Structure, actuators and myomers for mobility; armor; gyroscope; the fusion engine; the commanding cockpit; the Battle Computer for Targeting and Tracking; and the DI computer. The neurohelmet can not function as a direct brain-machine link. Well, than, what coordinates all these systems? The DI computer.

BattleMechs are actually quite capable well-programmed robots, with most of that capability stemming from the DI computer network and programming. That said, 'Mechs are not built or programmed to be autonomous, mostly because they carry a huge amount firepower and are so large. MechWarriors handle all of the higher-level decisions, essentially handling "higher level thinking" and balance tasks for their 'Mech. What the BattleMech computers do handle is a massive amount of lower-level decision making.
The Battle Computer system sorts, processes and translates sensor data and displays it for the MechWarrior, so that the MechWarrior needs only look at his readouts to ascertain his situation on the battlefield. Targeting for a MechWarrior is a simple act of using a control stick to aim a reticule on his targeting display... it is the BattleMech that actually does the calculations and tries to aim the weapons at the target the MechWarrior is indicating. It is the BattleMech that does the majority of recoil compensation and compensates for blasts of incoming hostile fire. While a MechWarrior can help the BattleMech balance, such as telling the 'Mech when to ride with recoil rather than leaning into it, or when to throw itself off-balance at another 'Mech, it is still the DI that handles most of this sort of decision making.

Moving is yet another task that the BattleMech does a lot of work at. Though a BattleMech may have proportionately large feet, it still must choose every footstep with care in order to compensate for outside forces or in anticipation of environmental features. Again, it is the DI that handles this, via a 'Mechs many sensors. Hand actuators are also tools that the BattleMech will handle via the DI network, especially more modern 'Mechs, which are programmed with very capable and complex actuator routines. BattleMechs will actually move their limbs and torso to avoid collisions. The agile movements of a light BattleMech threading its way through a forest is not only the result of a talented MechWarrior, but the 'Mechs own DI computer avoiding the trees.

However, BattleMechs do sometimes simply crash their way through forests, clip buildings, or trip down into ravines. This is because BattleMechs are programmed to obey their pilots, regardless of the "common sense" programmed into the 'Mech. For instance, a 'Mech will swing its arms through the side of a building if that is what's required to bring weapons to bear on a target. BattleMechs will give collision warnings, but they don't override their pilots. Ironically, this is one of the reasons why it takes a long time to train good MechWarriors. MechWarriors actually have to learn how to think for their 'Mech and exploit the machine's "intelligence" in order to get the results they want.

- And one of the reasons that the Pilot simply directs the Mech to move or go in a specific direction and the Di does all the rest. You're not actually driving the Mech but more akin to directing it where to go and how fast. Once the Mech is in motion the Di handles all the complexities of navigating the terrain and collision avoidance.

Just some info,
Ref: BattleMech Technology Essay

9erRed

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference the very large 'remains' of some form of animal(s) from the Viridian Bog map,
- Given the environment, food source, and lack of equivalent sized predicators it's quite likely these could exist.
- Even our own history indicates that we had massive creatures roaming around for 10's of 1000's of years, and it wasn't until the ecosystem and environment changed and they failed to adapt quick enough, they died off.

Massive by our scales, but given lower gravity, richer environment, the size of most elements, objects and species grow.

9erRed

[Win Ott]

That map looks really good! Please keep them coming out. The more maps, the longer you'll hold my interest and keep me playing.

[verybad]

0bsidion, on 17 November 2014 - 01:33 PM, said:

So you can tell from that video what the gravity of the planet is? What that creature is composed of? If it is even a carbon based life form? You're making an awful lot assumptions based merely on a visual inspection. If that's how you base your judgement I'll take a fun house mirror and show you a giant mound of gold I'd be willing to part with for the low price of $1000. No refunds though.

Got to be higher than Mars becauseit's atmosphere can't last long enough to support advances lifeformes (trees, megaworms) Got to be lower than probably 2 Gs otherwise humans wouldn't want to be on it and trees wouldn't grow that high.also the atmosphere would get too thick. and solar light at the ground would likely be blocked.

[9erRed]

Greetings all,

Reference trees growing large,

- Your assuming they are made of 'Earth' common wood cells and fibers. This may not be so common for an alien environment.
- Who's to say they are even carbon based? You would need to be thinking 'outside the box' for just what could even exist 'off-world'.

We are all to commonly trying to base fauna for 'other worlds' on what we know as normal for this (Earth) environment.
- As we know from our own geological records, plant size is normally set in relation to energy, area, food sources and anything that may eat them.
- Even through out this planets time line we have had trees that were massive on a scale most couldn't imagine.
- Proposing that an increase in G's would stunt growth, perhaps, but if there energy source is constant, they adapt rather quickly. Cell structure becoming denser, stronger and providing more support if it's required. (if it's even cell structure orientated and not some other form of material.)

Addition:
Reference Mars,
- it's been proposed that there was some form of cataclysmic event that started this Planet on it's way down, any life that existed (plant life) or oceans that produced the gas's required for the atmosphere to exist stopped there production. After 10's of 1000's of years the solar winds slowly blasted the atmosphere away from the surface. (one theory)
- On the thick atmosphere, this sometimes leads to a green house effect, great for plants at the start, thick and hot, but at some point it all comes to a crashing stop. Then the reverse happens and things start to get very cold from lack of radiated heat getting to the surface. (assuming the plant life actually needs heat?)
~ depending on just what the atmosphere is composed of and what produces and consumes it.

Just some idea's,
9erRed

Edited by 9erRed, 17 November 2014 - 05:36 PM.

[HimseIf]

9erRed, on 17 November 2014 - 02:59 PM, said:

Massive by our scales, but given lower gravity, richer environment, the size of most elements, objects and species grow.

Not giant fauna & flora, when how do we know they are simply not very small mechs?

[MW Waldorf Statler]

JTSR, on 17 November 2014 - 12:25 PM, said:

this argument is really funny no dis respect lake, i mean the whole discussion.

second i remind everyone of our own prehistoric periods ...dino sore asses, as a very small example, and the size of the insect type forna and flora that pre dates is also quite large in comparison to it present day equivalent.

and so what they wanted to inc a bit of Dune ... i personally love it and will now come back to the game because of the new map and Mechs..... if for no other reason the low cost mechi is going to be a real Biach...just like its original driver LOL

have a nice day everyone

that's true, but even there the animals were bound to biomechanical laws of nature, the size absolute limits set ... the largest arthropods on carbon-reached 3m, the oxygen content was then at 35% instead of 21% today, the largest dinosaurs were around the 40-50nm in size and were not enlarged lizards, but specially adapted to the anatomy of this size, with a large part of the length accounted for a extram long tail and neck, and she had a special bone. Insects and other arthropods are much more limited in the size and growth through their metabolism, their tracheal system and you do not grow along with the inelastic exoskeleton.
Gravity, energy consumption and kinetic energies set the size and growth of organisms limits, the largest and oldest critters are plants with their specific metabolism.

an we speak from Animals off Earthlike Planets, with Earthlike Flora

translate from german with Google
das ist zwar richtig,aber auch dort waren die Tiere an biomechanische naturgesetze gebunden die ihrer Größe absolute Grenzen setzten ...die größten Gliedertiere im karbon erreichten 3m ,der Sauerstoffgehalt war damals bei 35 % statt der 21 % heute,die größten Dinosaurier wurden um die 40-50nm groß und waren nicht vergrößerte Eidechsen ,sondern speziell in der Anatomie an diese Größe angepasst ,wobei ein großteil der länge auf einen extram langen ******* und Hals entfielen ,und sie einem speziellen Knochenbau hatten. Insekten und andere Gliedertiere sind da viel eingeschränkter in dem Größenwachstum durch ihren Stoffwechsel, ihre Tracheensystem und ihr nicht mitwachsendes unelastisches Aussenskelett.
Schwerkraft,Energieverbrauch und Kinetische Energien setzen dem Größenwachstum von Organismen Grenzen , die größten lebewesen und ältesten sind Pflanzen mit ihrem speziellen stoffwechsel.

LakeDaemon, on 17 November 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

I disagree. That infers that they are simply tractors or conveyances with legs. Mechs are autonomous to the point of operating independently while its higher decision making is reserved for the pilot. IIRC, mechs are able to travel and negotiate terrain independently and also respond to combat against it when the pilot is incapacitated or dead.

We could split hairs between types and technoloy such as agro mechs various levels of technology used or missing from a mechs by location and era but when one thinks of a battlemech, they almost always mean a mech that is able to connect to a pilot with a neurohelmet predicting their movements and action and can operate autonomously in more than a limited way.

Describing mechs as vehicles with legs would be inaccurate because its omitting quite a bit capability and autonomy that would blur this description. Are they robots in the sense of an Iron Giant or Terminator designed to be completely independent? No. But mechs are way more like robots with a pilot than a legged tractor with an operator or a tank with a crew.

Thats not Classic BT Lore ? for CBT its nonsense ...its this Dark Age Lore? this kidding Klick Klack system





how they come to these abstruse ideas? from BT source books or novels, they can not come anyway.

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 17 November 2014 - 10:04 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

9erRed, on 17 November 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Greetings all,

A rather good write up about the control of a Mech and how it happens. How much of this is very good programming and what the Pilot actually does.

Structure, actuators and myomers for mobility; armor; gyroscope; the fusion engine; the commanding cockpit; the Battle Computer for Targeting and Tracking; and the DI computer. The neurohelmet can not function as a direct brain-machine link. Well, than, what coordinates all these systems? The DI computer.

BattleMechs are actually quite capable well-programmed robots, with most of that capability stemming from the DI computer network and programming. That said, 'Mechs are not built or programmed to be autonomous, mostly because they carry a huge amount firepower and are so large. MechWarriors handle all of the higher-level decisions, essentially handling "higher level thinking" and balance tasks for their 'Mech. What the BattleMech computers do handle is a massive amount of lower-level decision making.
The Battle Computer system sorts, processes and translates sensor data and displays it for the MechWarrior, so that the MechWarrior needs only look at his readouts to ascertain his situation on the battlefield. Targeting for a MechWarrior is a simple act of using a control stick to aim a reticule on his targeting display... it is the BattleMech that actually does the calculations and tries to aim the weapons at the target the MechWarrior is indicating. It is the BattleMech that does the majority of recoil compensation and compensates for blasts of incoming hostile fire. While a MechWarrior can help the BattleMech balance, such as telling the 'Mech when to ride with recoil rather than leaning into it, or when to throw itself off-balance at another 'Mech, it is still the DI that handles most of this sort of decision making.

Moving is yet another task that the BattleMech does a lot of work at. Though a BattleMech may have proportionately large feet, it still must choose every footstep with care in order to compensate for outside forces or in anticipation of environmental features. Again, it is the DI that handles this, via a 'Mechs many sensors. Hand actuators are also tools that the BattleMech will handle via the DI network, especially more modern 'Mechs, which are programmed with very capable and complex actuator routines. BattleMechs will actually move their limbs and torso to avoid collisions. The agile movements of a light BattleMech threading its way through a forest is not only the result of a talented MechWarrior, but the 'Mechs own DI computer avoiding the trees.

However, BattleMechs do sometimes simply crash their way through forests, clip buildings, or trip down into ravines. This is because BattleMechs are programmed to obey their pilots, regardless of the "common sense" programmed into the 'Mech. For instance, a 'Mech will swing its arms through the side of a building if that is what's required to bring weapons to bear on a target. BattleMechs will give collision warnings, but they don't override their pilots. Ironically, this is one of the reasons why it takes a long time to train good MechWarriors. MechWarriors actually have to learn how to think for their 'Mech and exploit the machine's "intelligence" in order to get the results they want.

- And one of the reasons that the Pilot simply directs the Mech to move or go in a specific direction and the Di does all the rest. You're not actually driving the Mech but more akin to directing it where to go and how fast. Once the Mech is in motion the Di handles all the complexities of navigating the terrain and collision avoidance.

Just some info,
Ref: BattleMech Technology Essay

9erRed

ok, modern Aircrafts and Tanks with This Definition all Robots

[Nathan Foxbane]

For reference there was a time when dragonflies with 2 meter wingspans were perfectly normal. All they required was a high oxygen environment. I would not be too surprised if the sinkhole was the death of the creature. Though for all we know it might just be part of its breeding cycle. Something so large is not impossible, since we know nothing about the local biology for that world. Lobsters as stated earlier have an indefinite lifespan. We do not see giant ones not because they die of old age, but because they reach a funny point in their lifespan where they are too big to hide from their natural predators and get eaten before they become too big to eat.

Before this argument goes too far I might note such a fantastic creature need only one reason to exist even in the BT universe. Rule of Cool.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

the greatest!!! Dragonfly ist Meganeura from the Carbonperiod for 360 Mio Years ,with 72cm Wingspan ,not 2m !

its a great difference from a 3m Insect to a 300m Insect kinetic Energy for move
Only the movement is likely to be difficult, even if not distributed as in insect only 6-8 legs, sodnern to 100 and more, the ground pressure is enormous but how deep sinks the animal, and what forces it needs to be then to move?







Unfortunately, the science is in science fiction increasingly displaced from the fiction, which loses itself in megalomania

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 17 November 2014 - 09:39 PM.

[HlynkaCG]

Heffay, on 17 November 2014 - 09:55 AM, said:

Are you sure? Or are you using an intentionally limited definition of robot in order to support quibbling over semantics and colloquialisms?

Yes.

FYI: Being automatic, AKA operating without direct human input, is the property that makes a mechanical device into a "robot". It is the expansion of the term "robot" to include vehicles and devices that are actively controlled by humans that is the colloquialism.

[Rufus Ingram]

9erRed, on 17 November 2014 - 05:16 PM, said:

Greetings all,

Reference trees growing large,....

Redwood trees get over 300ft tall, and according to some book I read that I'm not going to track down, there are giant tree species in Australia and Asia as well. These are 10+ times the size of a mech. Carbon based is okay.

[HlynkaCG]

Dirus Nigh, on 17 November 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

Robot is a modern form of the word robota, which is Czech for Forced Labor. In another word slave. IT was originally used in play in 1920.

That is not quite true. Pабота is the Slavonic (of which Czech is a branch) word for "Work" Robot literally translates as "Worker" or "Servant". The word for slave would be "orбho".

Edited by HlynkaCG, 17 November 2014 - 10:29 PM.

[Fooooo]

Liking the map.

Glad you could get lots of reeds / grasses to show without dropping fps too bad. (even if they do look a little low res etc)



To some of the other posters going on about the fog........

The normal distance fog should actually increase your fps (even if its set to give you 2m of visibility) as it occludes objects behind it, meaning your vid card etc doesnt have to draw them......yet


However........if they are fogs from other sources, ie volumes etc then yes they can drop your fps......... (these fogs can come and go for just a certain area of a map etc, be thick in 1 section yet thin 2m forward etc etc....think of the old frozen city blizzard effect)

The fog on this map does not look like those latter fogs as its somewhat uniform over the whole map. (you can make the distance fog different intensitys at different heights tho if you want.....)

The stuff where dennis mentioned being under the umbrella lilys will give you more fog is probably one of the other methods of making fog but doesnt have to be etc.......

Just thought id point that out...

Edited by Fooooo, 17 November 2014 - 11:32 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Hi

Quote

um why are we assuming its an insect??????? it may well be a reptile like creature with a hard platelet skin and an internal skeleton of minerals or Kevlar, carbon fiber or even carbon nano tubes.....

the body looks like a Centipede...the legs looks exactly like a arthopoda ?!


its not only a Biological problem its a problem with the Biosphere ...what the Weight of a 300m Animal with Carbonskeleton ? 2000t? which natural Ground can carry it? .. what the number of legs? what for Food, for enough Energy for this enormous Body? small little Trees ?
which force and Weight acts on each leg (300t? 400?)and so on marshy terrain as even rocks would probably be blown up at every step;?)

For Star Wars ,or WH40k Universe This Animal its ok, for a other SF Universe ok...not for BT , here dominated the Human Race, the most planets terraformed...BT is a Alienfree Universe ,and X-Animals only Random exotic with not Influence ...In BT Mechs not NG Evagelion EvAs or Iron Man Suit like Robots , in BT only legged Tanks.
it is a pity, as SF universes lose their independence and soon all the features one is from the well in all others, they are interchangeable ....what the next in bT ? Alienraces with OP Tek? speaking Treemans or Ewoks? Shieldguarded Mechs with Chainsaws?

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 18 November 2014 - 12:45 AM.

[xengk]

Rufus Ingram, on 17 November 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

Redwood trees get over 300ft tall, and according to some book I read that I'm not going to track down, there are giant tree species in Australia and Asia as well. These are 10+ times the size of a mech. Carbon based is okay.

Yup, there are some really huge trees around, if they manage to avoid getting chop down.

In MWO, a mech's foot is abit wider than a car.
That hole in the tree is roughly the width of a mech's foot, I would say the tree in the photo should be taller than a mech.

[Crifuan]

Just good news!
- A great swamp/jungle-map
- Gray-Death-Hero-Mechs
- An ECM-Locust
...
- and the ensurence of ongoing development

A very good and great job PGI!
Please continue this!

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Sequoia width 5-7m,High 50-115m

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 18 November 2014 - 09:59 AM.

[Desintegrator]

Great new hero mechs -> the Grey Death is coming !

Thank you PGI !!!

[Sandtiger]

Fantastic!

I just love what PGI is doing these days. It is a far cry from the disappointments of yesteryear ~Grins. I can't wait to own the new Locust, and Shadow Hawk. Then next month we get the KING CRAB!!!! WOOT!!!! This is an amazing time. Thank you so much for all your hard work and diligence.