432 replies to this topic

[Kilo 40]

MeiSooHaityu, on 01 December 2014 - 03:04 AM, said:

Better BAP means less ECM effectivness, so more LRMs.

Everyone hated the "Magic Jesus Box", but I am sure some want it back now.

BAP needs to be dialed back a bit to create a better middle ground. We don't need to back to where it was, but we need to turn it back a bit to restore a bit more of the ECM effectivness.

BAP is the new Magic Jesus Box.

BAP was turned back in the last patch

[R Razor]

Blood Rose, on 01 December 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

This thread has gotten me wanting to bring back my old Catapult-CPLT-C1 "Wraithling", a lovely build I will be bringing back once the Vindicators are levelled. a 2 LRM15 missile boat with a nasty surprise 4 Medium Laser punch for when the enemy brawlers try to get close. Sit back, position well, rain RRazor and his other whiner friends and then when the compotent players get close to counter hold them off long enough for help to arrive.

Oh and Rrazor, you and your incompotent whiners dhould go away and play CoD or Hawken. Something that dosnt have actual tactics, just point and click adventures. Your proving your ignorance and incompotence by your consistant whining threads and your insulting of every player that points out where you are going wrong. RRazor, learn to play you noob ezmode boy sniper.

Yet another individual crowing about his "skill"..........learn to read, stop assuming, and please, bring that weaksauce to the battlefield. Just because I don't support your skill lacking playstyle does not mean I die to it. That is what you ezmode clowns just can't seem to wrap your heads around.

And sitting behind a hill while your team goes out and presses the R key hardly qualifies as tactics amigo.......despite what your fellow lurmbots might tell you.

Edited by R Razor, 01 December 2014 - 07:09 PM.

[Kilo 40]

R Razor, on 01 December 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Yet another individual crowing about his "skill"..........learn to read, stop assuming, and please, bring that weaksauce to the battlefield. Just because I don't support your skill lacking playstyle does not mean I die to it. That is what you ezmode clowns just can't seem to wrap your heads around.

Every time you say "ezmode" people take your comments more seriously.

Really.

[R Razor]

Kilo 40, on 01 December 2014 - 07:08 PM, said:

Every time you say "ezmode" people take your comments more seriously.

Really.

Groupthink says the sac swingers in this thread don't care about how the information is presented anyway Kilo.........bottom line is these mouthbreathers assume that if you have issues with the way certain weapon systems are implemented you must not be capable of dealing with them. I find in cases like that it's just easier to respond in kind.

The simple truth of the matter is that LRM's have been implemented poorly in this game. Lurmbots should not have the option of sitting still and waiting on their team to run out and find them a red dorito so they can press the R key and LMB and collect C-Bills. Targeting computers or Command Console, Narc or Tag, and UAV should be the only way lurmbots can utilize IDF. Implement a system of that nature (doesn't have to be exact, but anything is better than what they have now) and provide better bonuses to lurmbots firing on targets they have LOS on (whether that be a damage increase per missile or more missiles of a given group hitting or faster missile travel time) and see how much improved combat becomes in this game. If that ever came to pass the crying would be legendary though. Nobody like having their ez money builds prevented from working as they have been.

For every player using LRM's that actually makes tactical decisions while doing so, there are dozens of others that do exactly as I have said they do.........."80 tubes, press R for rain" blah blah blah.........there's a reason they are called noobtubes........and it's not because of the 5% or 10% of the player base that knows how to use them without relying almost entirely on being carried by the rest of the team.

Edited by R Razor, 01 December 2014 - 07:18 PM.

[Sam Slade]

GREAT IDEA - PAY ATTENTION

1). LRMs can only ever use indirect fire if supported by TAG or NARC... aside from that they are a direct fire weapon that can arc over terrain.

2). LRMs get a solid buff to damage and cockpit shake(NOT SPEED) .

3). LRMs are better for those who like them AND those who do not. Role warfare for scouts/scout lances becomes a thing... using LRMs in mixed loadouts becomes viable for IS mechs. LRMs are now a better weapons system...

4).(optional) Ammo explosions from stored missile ammo become more destructive.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Nope. They dont need a nerf. I pug drop with LRMS. it is the most frustrating experience I have ever had to deal with. The game is flooded with ECM now. Ecm lights, Ecm assualts, Ecm mediums, and now everyones grinding out the first Ecm heavy. a well armed, fast moving ecm heavy. Pug games are usually BLANKETED with ECM, to the point where ive had to pack my latest LRM build, a warhawk with my own narc beacons just to get decent damage in. I NEVER carried narc before, it was always a waste of tonnage for me, but its basically a free scout mech now, since my own teams scouts are usually off lolderping around the entire enemy team and dying in the first few minutes. I spot tag/narc and lrm my own dam targets because I cannot rely on pug teams to hold locks long enough for my missiles to hit. I have to pack on a minimum of 1600+ lrms to get decent damage, because half of them are wasted on lost locks. Anything below that amount and I WILL run out of ammo.

And contrary to popular belief not every lrm boat is sitting in the back munching pizza and pressing the fire key. I'm constantly moving around trying to get LOS and better angles on my targets when i play lrm mechs. Especially if im packing one with the artemis upgrade. So lumping guys who run fire support with the pizza munchers is a bit unfair....

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 01 December 2014 - 09:00 PM.

[Kilo 40]

R Razor, on 01 December 2014 - 07:17 PM, said:

their ez money builds

see what I mean? The rest of your comment has sooo much more credibility now.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Blood Rose, on 01 December 2014 - 03:45 AM, said:

This thread has gotten me wanting to bring back my old Catapult-CPLT-C1 "Wraithling", a lovely build I will be bringing back once the Vindicators are levelled. a 2 LRM15 missile boat with a nasty surprise 4 Medium Laser punch for when the enemy brawlers try to get close. Sit back, position well, rain RRazor and his other whiner friends and then when the compotent players get close to counter hold them off long enough for help to arrive.

Oh and Rrazor, you and your incompotent whiners dhould go away and play CoD or Hawken. Something that dosnt have actual tactics, just point and click adventures. Your proving your ignorance and incompotence by your consistant whining threads and your insulting of every player that points out where you are going wrong. RRazor, learn to play you noob ezmode boy sniper.

Been running that since beta. Has a tag now. And artemis.

[trajan331]

I voted that LRM's are fine but, we should add a C-Bill/XP bonus for AMS.

15 C-Bill and 1 EXP/10 LRM/SRM's shot down that were not targeted at you. So basically if you are turning your AMS on and off just to protect yourself you won't get bonus.

[dread2005]

http://mwomercs.com/...09#entry3956109

look at my last sentence! i think thats the best way to do it

[Blood Rose]

R Razor, on 01 December 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

Yet another individual crowing about his "skill"..........learn to read, stop assuming, and please, bring that weaksauce to the battlefield. Just because I don't support your skill lacking playstyle does not mean I die to it. That is what you ezmode clowns just can't seem to wrap your heads around.

And sitting behind a hill while your team goes out and presses the R key hardly qualifies as tactics amigo.......despite what your fellow lurmbots might tell you.

Umm... I have only twice run an LRM boat - Once when levelling my Catapults and once when a faulty windows patch reduced my system speed to a crawl, when the trial Stalker was available.
If you actually look at my Mechs - yes, actually look before you insult - then you will see that only two of my Mechs mount LRM's. an LRM10 with Artemis on my Centurion, and an LRM5 on one of my Vindicators. Im not crowing about my "ezmode skillz" as you like to put it - by the way that proto 1337 speak is really showing your maturity - im merely pointing out that out of all the players here only you and a small number of others have any issues with LRM's and that this thread has actually given me a hankering for my old Level 2 Tech Catapult-CPLT C1.

If half the scrubs in the pugs are even half as bad as you appear to be then this will be a fun way of C-Bill farming.

[RiggsIron]

As Phil/Sean Lang says on stream, and others have said - you dont see a lot of LRMs in team competitive play.

What supporters of NOT changing anything refuse to admit is that SOLO queue has a MASSIVE amount of LRMs.
And since you are not on a team, you cant just "bring ECM and AMS" on every mech - dunno if people know this - but not all mechs and variants have those options. Just an FYI.

And anyone saying "Use cover" - maybe play the game and all the maps before posting?
I see people with thousands of posts, or 10s of thousands - that clearly do NOT know the maps, the mechs, or the game as it is played in solo queue. Or are just trolling so they can continue to "pwn noobs" sitting behind hills pressing a single button.

The ONLY time indirect fire should be possible is if a target is Narced, or actively being Tagged. As in a spotter has to sit there with the laser visible holding it on the target for the missiles to land.

Otherwise LRMs should be used like any other weapon - aim at a spot and shoot. Change them so they dont just flop into the ground without a hard target - you can aim at locations etc, and if they lose hard lock on indirect fire they will just continue to the last spot and hit the ground, or the target if they dont move...

But LRMs right now are so stupid it is amazing how NOT fun the game is much of the time.

"Yeah I love standing under a building for 8 minutes until some action finally happens - because all the other buildings around wont stop missiles and if I move Im basically dead or lose so much armor I cant fight anyway" - whoever thinks that is fun is not a smart person.

[Star Witch Esperanza]

LRMs have jumped back and forth between really good and really bad like 8 times.

[kazlaton]

RiggsIron, on 02 December 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

...you cant just "bring ECM and AMS" on every mech - dunno if people know this - but not all mechs and variants have those options. Just an FYI.

There is only a single mech that cannot bring AMS, the Cicada X5. Unless you have been using that exclusively, there is no excuse.

RiggsIron, on 02 December 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

And anyone saying "Use cover" - maybe play the game and all the maps before posting?
I see people with thousands of posts, or 10s of thousands - that clearly do NOT know the maps, the mechs, or the game as it is played in solo queue.

Or maybe, just maybe, they have been around long enough to figure something out that you haven't yet.

RiggsIron, on 02 December 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

"Yeah I love standing under a building for 8 minutes until some action finally happens ...

You're doing it wrong. Here are the steps to doing it right.

1. Here the incoming missle alert
2. Get behind cover, until you break there lock.
3. Now it is safe to step out of cover and shoot. There will be something to shoot, whether its the LRM boat, the spotter, or a UAV. By the time the LRM boat can reaquire your lock and fire, you should have time to fire at least 1 or 2 alpha strikes at the target.
4. When you here the incoming missle alert again, step back behind cover.
5. Repeat as needed.

If the LRM boat or spotter are in in line of sight, you will eventually destroy them while taking almost no damage from LRMs. If they retreat, congratulations! Now press the advantage, move up to the next piece of cover, and continue.

[Dimento Graven]

trajan331, on 01 December 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

I voted that LRM's are fine but, we should add a C-Bill/XP bonus for AMS.

15 C-Bill and 1 EXP/10 LRM/SRM's shot down that were not targeted at you. So basically if you are turning your AMS on and off just to protect yourself you won't get bonus.

I also think LRMs are fine, BUT, something needs to be done to normalize the game play experience between non-challenge/non-contest periods and when there's a challenge/contest going on.

The fact that LRMs receive such a huge benefit from other team member's efforts is what is over incentivizes their use during challenges and contests.

An AMS bonus to experience is one thing, but again we need to factor in the entire team's contribution into the challenge scoring calculations.

If there were an easy way to factor in the LRM damage that resulted in a LRM user using your targeting info, whether from a locked target from pressing R, a TAG, a NARC, or a UAV you launched, I think everyone would LOVE LRMs, but, considering that the LRM user/boat gets EXCLUSIVE benefit from LRM damage, whether or not he's using indirect fire or not is what is over incentivizing their use during the challenges and contests, correct/normalize the incentive and we'll either see less of them, OR, we'll at least be awarding everyone for their efforts appropriately.

[Dimento Graven]

kazlaton, on 02 December 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

There is only a single mech that cannot bring AMS, the Cicada X5. Unless you have been using that exclusively, there is no excuse.

I believe he was referring to the vast majority of 'mechs that are limited to ONE AMS, and the other VAST majority of 'mechs that can't equip ECM.

Quote

Or maybe, just maybe, they have been around long enough to figure something out that you haven't yet.

Caustic Valley and Forest Colony (to some degree) have limited cover for LRMs.

In Caustic Valley the enemy has to "cooperate" to allow you to move without being spotted, and Forest Colony has large areas that can't be crossed without exposing yourself, UNLESS you want try going through the cave, which in my experience and opinion is a horrible choice. Yes, volunteer to put yourself into a bottleneck. The enemy REALLY has to play stupidly for that to work...

Quote

You're doing it wrong. Here are the steps to doing it right.

I'll respond to some of your over simplification here.

Quote

1. Here the incoming missle alert
2. Get behind cover, until you break there lock.

On #2 - Get behind cover, hope that no UAV or spotter is somewhere you haven't yet noticed. Also hope that the elevation difference between you and the missile launcher isn't such that the LRM path algorithm doesn't create an overly steep arc. You can see this in practice when the missile launcher is at a lower elevation than its target.

Quote

3. Now it is safe to step out of cover and shoot. There will be something to shoot, whether its the LRM boat, the spotter, or a UAV. By the time the LRM boat can reaquire your lock and fire, you should have time to fire at least 1 or 2 alpha strikes at the target.
4. When you here the incoming missle alert again, step back behind cover.
5. Repeat as needed.

You usually only have time for ONE alpha actually. Considering artemis and then the stacking of TAG and NARC, and the general availability of UAV's, LRM locks can happen pretty darn fast. With a UAV or spotter up, even having the Target Depravation module loaded won't help either.

I know in my own experience, I have stepped out from cover only to have, one second later, "Incoming Missiles" blaring at me.

I'm fascinated by how quickly those LRMs can be locked.

But yes, HOPEFULLY, someone has noticed the UAV and is attempting to shoot it down (usually they do so under fire) and HOPEFULLY the UAV isn't behind some bad map texture that's made it impervious (I have a vid of that too), and if it's not a UAV, hopefully they're chasing the spotter, if they've found it.

A good spotter for LRMs is worth more than the LRMs itself, he's the one taking the risk...

Quote

If the LRM boat or spotter are in in line of sight, you will eventually destroy them while taking almost no damage from LRMs. If they retreat, congratulations! Now press the advantage, move up to the next piece of cover, and continue.

It would depend on the LRM boat's build vs. your build. Keep in mind some LRM builds using chain fire can fire a nearly continuous stream of LRMs at you and with cockpit shake aiming pin point weapons under that circumstance is... Tricky at best. HOPEFULLY they are at a range where you can get a few shots off before the missiles start landing on you to discourage them from maintaining their focus on you. Of course if your build is a "medium range brawler", and they're at 600 meters or more from you... Well... Good luck, your only chance is to try to find sufficient cover and/or hope you have Target Depravation loaded and/or they don't have Target Retention loaded.

Keep in mind there are FAR MORE options to enhance LRM performance than there are for degrading it, and considering that a majority of those options STACK... Yeesh...

[Mercules]

RiggsIron, on 02 December 2014 - 03:42 AM, said:

"Yeah I love standing under a building for 8 minutes until some action finally happens - because all the other buildings around wont stop missiles and if I move Im basically dead or lose so much armor I cant fight anyway" - whoever thinks that is fun is not a smart person.

Whoever thinks this is how you deal with LRMs is a pretty poor player.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 02 December 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

I believe he was referring to the vast majority of 'mechs that are limited to ONE AMS, and the other VAST majority of 'mechs that can't equip ECM.

Caustic Valley and Forest Colony (to some degree) have limited cover for LRMs.

In Caustic Valley the enemy has to "cooperate" to allow you to move without being spotted, and Forest Colony has large areas that can't be crossed without exposing yourself, UNLESS you want try going through the cave, which in my experience and opinion is a horrible choice. Yes, volunteer to put yourself into a bottleneck. The enemy REALLY has to play stupidly for that to work...

I'll respond to some of your over simplification here.



On #2 - Get behind cover, hope that no UAV or spotter is somewhere you haven't yet noticed. Also hope that the elevation difference between you and the missile launcher isn't such that the LRM path algorithm doesn't create an overly steep arc. You can see this in practice when the missile launcher is at a lower elevation than its target.

You usually only have time for ONE alpha actually. Considering artemis and then the stacking of TAG and NARC, and the general availability of UAV's, LRM locks can happen pretty darn fast. With a UAV or spotter up, even having the Target Depravation module loaded won't help either.

I know in my own experience, I have stepped out from cover only to have, one second later, "Incoming Missiles" blaring at me.

I'm fascinated by how quickly those LRMs can be locked.

But yes, HOPEFULLY, someone has noticed the UAV and is attempting to shoot it down (usually they do so under fire) and HOPEFULLY the UAV isn't behind some bad map texture that's made it impervious (I have a vid of that too), and if it's not a UAV, hopefully they're chasing the spotter, if they've found it.

A good spotter for LRMs is worth more than the LRMs itself, he's the one taking the risk...

It would depend on the LRM boat's build vs. your build. Keep in mind some LRM builds using chain fire can fire a nearly continuous stream of LRMs at you and with cockpit shake aiming pin point weapons under that circumstance is... Tricky at best. HOPEFULLY they are at a range where you can get a few shots off before the missiles start landing on you to discourage them from maintaining their focus on you. Of course if your build is a "medium range brawler", and they're at 600 meters or more from you... Well... Good luck, your only chance is to try to find sufficient cover and/or hope you have Target Depravation loaded and/or they don't have Target Retention loaded.

Keep in mind there are FAR MORE options to enhance LRM performance than there are for degrading it, and considering that a majority of those options STACK... Yeesh...

Here is the issue with all that you said here.... All these scenarios you listed where there is a spotter and a UAV and all this imaginary coordination going on for the LRM side of the equation to be so nasty, it sounds like it would work really well for a coordinated group.

But then we have the evidence that really coordinated groups don't typically take LRMs.

So again we are back to the conclusion that LRMs work in PuGs because there are a LOT of bad players running around in PuGs being targets making taking LRMs worth bothering with. We don't need to nerf LRMs, we need to educate bad players.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 02 December 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

Here is the issue with all that you said here.... All these scenarios you listed where there is a spotter and a UAV and all this imaginary coordination going on for the LRM side of the equation to be so nasty, it sounds like it would work really well for a coordinated group.

But then we have the evidence that really coordinated groups don't typically take LRMs.

While in competitive play you RARELY see LRMs used to any real extent, during challenges and contests, that do not require solo play, you will see an over abundance of LRM usage in the public group queue.

That's an absolute fact.

Quote

So again we are back to the conclusion that LRMs work in PuGs because there are a LOT of bad players running around in PuGs being targets making taking LRMs worth bothering with. We don't need to nerf LRMs, we need to educate bad players.

No, in the solo public queue you will see an over abundance of LRMs and occasionally see someone dedicated to spotting. Typically THAT person is an extremely good light pilot who has gotten good not just at spotting but of knowing when to rush in at 'the last second' to get that kill. Light pilots of that caliber, in the public queue, are rare indeed.

Still, during the challenges and contests even without a dedicated spotter you can usually expect between 2 and 4 brawlers dropping per side per match in the solo public queue, and a portion of them will be bringing UAVs, equipping TAGs (maybe even a NARC though that's a bit more rare), and going out there hoping to find an unaware LRM boat, or another brawler to do their preferred mode of play, all the while allowing all the missile boats to take advantage of whatever they have targeted, or whatever falls under the UAV umbrella they might launch.

And we're back to my original point: During challenges and contests the scoring advantages of equipping/boating missiles is such that a majority of players will do so because it is MUCH easier to survive longer and get high damage and high assist counts with indirect fire than it is with the NORMAL non-challenge/non-contest play style.

Adjust the challenge/contest scoring accordingly, either by reducing the points given on LRM damage, OR, find some way that awards the people doing the spotting/TAG'ing/NARC'ing/UAVs their due as well.

Either way the scoring of LRMs needs to be normalized.

Award the others assisting (wittingly or not) the LRM users, or, stop awarding too much to the LRM users.

[Joseph Mallan]

Make kills worth more in a challenge and watch the LRMs go back to normal levels in them. Its merely players gaming the obvious to get better scores to win swag.