432 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Sam Slade, on 06 December 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

'Close Support' is a relative term methinks...

I like sitting a few hundred meters behind the friendly I'm supporting... takes me out of SRM range of whomever they're brawling and Target Decay lets me bounce around a bit(disclaimer: I've not used my Cat in months)

No.. Close support is not a relative term. SRMs are for close support LRMs are for when you want to reach out and touch someone. Its why they have a 1000 meter MAX range now. So you DON'T HAVE to be 300 away to use em.

You are trying to impose your style on a weapon system. Don't It's not your place to dictate how Weapons are supposed to be used unless you design them. However it is right in the name of Long Range Missiles, as to what their use is.

[Sethliopod]

Wait. I can vote there is no problem, but then have to vote to fix a problem that does not exist?

[Sethliopod]

I can remember many times being killed by LRMs. It's annoying, but rare--and I'm a bad player.

I have been killed by ACs and lasers far more times than I can begin to recall.

Nerf ACs & Lasers!

Edited by Sethliopod, 06 December 2014 - 11:04 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 06 December 2014 - 10:39 AM, said:

Because I learned long ago, and this sounds really hokey, "The journey is the point, not the destination"

Considering some of the stuff I put on this thread, I'll do my damndest to NOT call anything anyone else says as, "hokey".

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Winning is the destination. Sometimes you will get there, and sometimes you won't, but you can still have some awesome experiences along the way. Winning is like 5 seconds of a 4-15 minute match. What matters more is the playing of the match.

Challenges are the same thing for me. If I get it, cool, if not, pshhhht who cares. If I'm not having fun trying to accomplish it, well it was a pretty stupid way to spend my time, wasn't it. If I feel cheated that is ON ME, not on everyone around me.

I guess that's where we differ. How can you have any 'fun' if you don't care about you're goal? The 'journey' is so much wasted time and effort if you don't care whether or not you arrive.

I've NEVER set off on any "journey" or attempted to accomplish a goal without caring about where I was, what was going on, and about all the necessities required to accomplish the goal/get to the end of the journey.

Though admittedly, from what I've seen of a lot of players, aimlessly wandering around the map, not bothering to actually aim, or think about what was going on around them... There may be plenty of practitioners of "...it's about the journey..."

Those people drive me ape ****.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 06 December 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

Considering some of the stuff I put on this thread, I'll do my damndest to NOT call anything anyone else says as, "hokey".

I guess that's where we differ. How can you have any 'fun' if you don't care about you're goal? The 'journey' is so much wasted time and effort if you don't care whether or not you arrive.

I've NEVER set off on any "journey" or attempted to accomplish a goal without caring about where I was, what was going on, and about all the necessities required to accomplish the goal/get to the end of the journey.

Though admittedly, from what I've seen of a lot of players, aimlessly wandering around the map, not bothering to actually aim, or think about what was going on around them... There may be plenty of practitioners of "...it's about the journey..."

Those people drive me ape ****.

Winning is the Destination. But if you don't take in the sights a long the way and enjoy the view along the way the drive really sucks!

I can lose a game that I personally did awesome in and be happy with the effort I gave! I can be on the winning team and Sucked eggs and thus be disappointed in My performance in the match. How you get to the end is important to having fun.

I can lose 100 games where I wrack up 3-4 kills and 7 assists, cause I played awesome!

[Dimento Graven]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 11:50 AM, said:

Winning is the Destination. But if you don't take in the sights a long the way and enjoy the view along the way the drive really sucks!

I can lose a game that I personally did awesome in and be happy with the effort I gave! I can be on the winning team and Sucked eggs and thus be disappointed in My performance in the match. How you get to the end is important to having fun.

I can lose 100 games where I wrack up 3-4 kills and 7 assists, cause I played awesome!

Again, we differ. I can enjoy the sights along the way too, but, if I don't get to my goal, I could be surrounded by inequitable beauty, but I'm still not where I need to be.

It drives me ape-**** when I do well but we still end up losing. I've had that happen way to often too, again, in my opinion too many people 'taking in the sights' and crashing and dying along the way to the goal.

Winning = good.
Losing = bad.

Regardless of how much fun was had, or great sights seen along the way...

Just the way I am I guess.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Again, we differ. I can enjoy the sights along the way too, but, if I don't get to my goal, I could be surrounded by inequitable beauty, but I'm still not where I need to be.

It drives me ape-**** when I do well but we still end up losing. I've had that happen way to often too, again, in my opinion too many people 'taking in the sights' and crashing and dying along the way to the goal.

Winning = good.
Losing = bad.

Regardless of how much fun was had, or great sights seen along the way...

Just the way I am I guess.

Winning = I either did my job right or my opponent didn't do their right, typically the second.
Losing = "Hmmm, what did I do wrong and what did they do right?"


It's all a puzzle.

Look, in a 30 game football/baseball/hockey/paintball season it's possible that you might win every game and still face some really stiff competition and overcome them. When you start talking about 15-20 drops an evening and hundreds of games in a month though, if you are not losing some of them you are not being challenged.

Losing is just as important as winning especially if you take a moment to consider where you went wrong or where your opponent went right and learn from it.

In the end hopping in the game and challenging myself is FUN! Challenging does not equal "have to win".


Edit: Oh and just to add. There are too many variables in life to make Goals too important. You need them and you should strive for them but you should not be disappointed when you fail to achieve them. I might set a goal to get a new lance for a TT game painted tonight and then have a friend call and ask if I want to go to lunch and have that turn into an entire day spent with them. I had fun but I didn't achieve my goal. I might set off to visit San Francisco and maybe I get sidetracked on the way and spend my time exploring a cave system instead of dipping my toes in the ocean, that is fine too. Things change and they are often beyond my control or even fully in my control but what I decided three hours ago is less important to me in the next 20 minutes.

Edited by Mercules, 06 December 2014 - 01:12 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 06 December 2014 - 01:05 PM, said:

Winning = I either did my job right or my opponent didn't do their right, typically the second.
Losing = "Hmmm, what did I do wrong and what did they do right?"

It's all a puzzle.

Look, in a 30 game football/baseball/hockey/paintball season it's possible that you might win every game and still face some really stiff competition and overcome them. When you start talking about 15-20 drops an evening and hundreds of games in a month though, if you are not losing some of them you are not being challenged.

Ahh, but here we are back to my side of the argument. In hockey, or better yet football (of which I know more about than hockey), it's you and 10 other people on the field. If you're putting in your '110%' and the rest of the team, is NOT putting in their best efforts, you have every right to be upset, throw a tirade in their direction and generally, be pissed off. ESPECIALLY when you see the other team making huge mistakes but, because some on your team choose to 'half-ass' it, it's not possible to take advantage of.

In MWO, if MM is tossing me in with these people I expect them to be at least as skilled as I am and to try as hard as I always do, and to WANT to win as much as I do.

Quote

Losing is just as important as winning especially if you take a moment to consider where you went wrong or where your opponent went right and learn from it.

In the end hopping in the game and challenging myself is FUN! Challenging does not equal "have to win".

I have to win.

Were this a SOLO game, 1v1, or the like THEN maybe it'd be less stressful on me, but the 11 other potential bozos on my team drive me nuts when they're 'enjoying the journey' more than they are focused on destination.

Quote

Edit: Oh and just to add. There are too many variables in life to make Goals too important. You need them and you should strive for them but you should not be disappointed when you fail to achieve them. I might set a goal to get a new lance for a TT game painted tonight and then have a friend call and ask if I want to go to lunch and have that turn into an entire day spent with them. I had fun but I didn't achieve my goal. I might set off to visit San Francisco and maybe I get sidetracked on the way and spend my time exploring a cave system instead of dipping my toes in the ocean, that is fine too. Things change and they are often beyond my control or even fully in my control but what I decided three hours ago is less important to me in the next 20 minutes.

Meh... Disappointment is nature's way of telling you that you should do better next time.

Disappointment isn't bad, it's part of what you use as motivation, "I don't wish to feel disappointed again, I will do better..." to improve.

Unfortunately in this game with it's significant lack of in-game VOIP motivating and even more importantly providing meaningful, TIMELY, assistance is a crap shoot at best... But that part, and other MWO architecture weaknesses like it, I always cuss PGI for...

EDIT: And back on topic, the weakness of MWO not appropriately awarding challenge/contest points is what encourages the regression to lackadaisical play from the sudden over abundance of LRM boat/users.

Fix the risk-v-reward balance, one direction or another, and I think that problem would resolve itself.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 06 December 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Quaamik]

Three points I'd like to bring up:

1) I don't think LRMs are OP, or that they need a nerf. I think its the way they are employed that causes the problem. When you face 8 - 12 mechs that all have 1 - 2 launchers, its easy to have 6 mechs lock and fire on one target. That results in an average of 60+ missiles coming in almost at once.

2) I think a combination of awards (using / providing AMS coverage & ECM coverage), skill based counters (letting a PPC hit wipe out a mechs "lock"), game changes (slow or limited target sharing between lances) and penalties decreased awards for damage done by LRMs from out of LoS) would help alleviate the problem.

3) LRMs are not made useless by ECM. I'm going to give away a tip / trick here that I think I'm going to regret later. If you can see it you can hit it with LRMs (inside 1000m), even if you can't target it. Lacking a target, LRMs will fly to where your target reticle was aiming when launched. That Dire Wolf under ECM coverage? He gets awfully surprised when 30 LRMs rain out of the sky and most hit him anyway. With practice, you can hit a moving heavy mech at 600 m that is under ECM coverage. Its not the best choice. You tend to waste a fair amount of ammo. But it can be done.

[Quaamik]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

................................

This last Challenge I knew to stay out of. I die as often as I kill so getting 1 and 1 and living would be... Difficult. Very Difficult. But the rules were what they were. Whining about it should NEVER change that. It is meant to be "A Challenge" after all.

I get the feeling. Before that challenge I often had games ending with 9 - 12 "assists" and me dead. I used it to help change my gameplay and now I have learned how to die a little less often and get more kills. I also get fewer assists but hey ....

[zortesh]

If your getting killed by lrms based on indirect locks your just bad.... sorry but thats how i see it, indirect locks are super easy to break.

Lrms are weak, narc beacons are to be feared....

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

If you're putting in your '110%' and the rest of the team, is NOT putting in their best efforts, you have every right to be upset, throw a tirade in their direction and generally, be pissed off. ESPECIALLY when you see the other team making huge mistakes but, because some on your team choose to 'half-ass' it, it's not possible to take advantage of.

...and that is the problem. I am going to give you some advice from a very wise man that helped me put so much of my life into perspective.

[girl on fire]

LRM's control the flow of the game.

at least they do in the solo que.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 06 December 2014 - 08:13 PM, said:

...and that is the problem. I am going to give you some advice from a very wise man that helped me put so much of my life into perspective.

I'd put pretty big money that if the Dalai Lama was playing this game and had to deal with some the idiots in it, he'd be working on f'ing their karma...

Here's a quote I've taken with me that's served me well:

"Being a 'good loser' is like being a 'good masturbator', not something you should aspire to, nor be proud of, and only practice in private."

And yeah, that's my own 'life's wisdom'...

[YueFei]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

I'd put pretty big money that if the Dalai Lama was playing this game and had to deal with some the idiots in it, he'd be working on f'ing their karma...

No, he wouldn't. Some Buddhist monks develop such discipline they can light themselves on fire and not care.

Quote

Here's a quote I've taken with me that's served me well:

"Being a 'good loser' is like being a 'good masturbator', not something you should aspire to, nor be proud of, and only practice in private."

And yeah, that's my own 'life's wisdom'...

You can control how you feel about something, or you can let your emotions control you.

Feeling upset about a loss doesn't change the fact that it was a loss. Feeling upset about it doesn't help correct whatever problem caused the loss in the first place. Crying over spilled milk is something children do, but crying about it doesn't clean up the mess or prevent future spills.

Did Joe Montana ever go up and down the sidelines screaming at his teammates when they had a setback in a game? They called him "Joe Cool" for a reason.

[Captain Stiffy]

The LRM whining will never end.

We can only hope it stays in this thread where it's been properly trounced.

[Kilo 40]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

Here's a quote I've taken with me that's served me well:

"Being a 'good loser' is like being a 'good masturbator', not something you should aspire to, nor be proud of, and only practice in private."

And yeah, that's my own 'life's wisdom'...

I'm sure that sounded witty in your head, but it's really not. Perhaps if you had learned about sportsmanship at a younger age, you might now realize why it isn't.

[KuroNyra]

Dimento Graven, on 06 December 2014 - 11:24 PM, said:

And yeah, that's my own 'life's wisdom'...

No wonder it sound that poor.

You simply can't deal with the differents kinds of weapons and the fact they are all rewarded.
Burt hey, it's not like the guy you target with your LRMS could be killed during the flight of your missile, thus making your missile useless and wasting precious ammo you are so dependent on. No, it always hit and they always get the kills.


There's two type of people in this world.
The player with fairplays, and the player without fairplays.
Guess on wich type you are. Easy: it's not the good one.

Edited by KuroNyra, 07 December 2014 - 02:03 AM.

[Sam Slade]

Joseph Mallan, on 06 December 2014 - 10:40 AM, said:

No.. Close support is not a relative term. SRMs are for close support LRMs are for when you want to reach out and touch someone. Its why they have a 1000 meter MAX range now. So you DON'T HAVE to be 300 away to use em.

You are trying to impose your style on a weapon system. Don't It's not your place to dictate how Weapons are supposed to be used unless you design them. However it is right in the name of Long Range Missiles, as to what their use is.

Wait... what? Why are SRMs a support weapon? If that rationalises they way I think it will then we only have a scant few 'primary' weapons. Big/paired ballistics and large lasers(PPCs?).

Also, if I'm a few hundred meters behind a friendly I'm supporting that puts me about 600-700 from my target. Even then you lose a good deal to AMS... anyway, how am I shoehorning something into the 'wrong' method of using LRMs(oh oracle of right-way-play)?

[Dimento Graven]

YueFei, on 07 December 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

No, he wouldn't. Some Buddhist monks develop such discipline they can light themselves on fire and not care.

Whatever... He's still human and humans have their flaws and limits.

That's a fact that no amount of religion or philosophy can circumvent.

Quote

You can control how you feel about something, or you can let your emotions control you.

Feeling upset about a loss doesn't change the fact that it was a loss. Feeling upset about it doesn't help correct whatever problem caused the loss in the first place. Crying over spilled milk is something children do, but crying about it doesn't clean up the mess or prevent future spills.

Did Joe Montana ever go up and down the sidelines screaming at his teammates when they had a setback in a game? They called him "Joe Cool" for a reason.

Yet, as is so often the case, if someone doesn't say, "Hey you screwed up, you need to fix X." most people will think they did nothing wrong.

And, after a weeks, months, and years of playing this game and being 'nice', and getting the various smart ass responses, and/or watching the same people continue to make the same mistakes match after match after match, the 'niceness' has to end and you have to get 'loud' in the limited way it's possible in the very limited communication available in game.

But whatever... I'm just not as used to losing as some people are, and I'm human.

Kilo 40, on 07 December 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

I'm sure that sounded witty in your head, but it's really not. Perhaps if you had learned about sportsmanship at a younger age, you might now realize why it isn't.

LOL! Where do you think I learned that wisdom?