432 replies to this topic

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Here's the ultimate fix to LRMS during challenges:

DO NOT COUNT LRM DAMAGE DURING CHALLENGES.

Problem solved.

Actually the ultimate fix would be for people to learn how to counter them. As long as people wander and go, "Oh noes... LRMs... my one weakness... I... must... die... now..." they will continue to be used. Use cover to break LoS, move laterally, and the LRMs don't hit you. You don't even have to "hide in cover".

[Lucky Noob]

Ah, another one of thoose Treads

Two Days ago i watched an Twitch Stream and the Streamer got owned after taking about 4 Volleys of 2 Boats. Ofc lasers killed him but anyway.

So i said to him, an AMS woud be helpefull here, he answered , an Ams woudnt helped me stay alive . wooot ?

Every damage counts and Missles are great in taking armor apart so that lasers can crit. an AMS woud helped him get rid of about 40 Damage and that woud help him resist the lasers.

As long people dont get it what AMS offers i dont listen to there Crying.

Being an 100 Ton Mech and cant spar 1,5 Tons is just stupid.

and if you think Missles are OP, just ask the Competive crowds why they dont use em.

Edited by Braddack, 26 November 2014 - 07:53 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 26 November 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

It's easy to say and easy to do. Don't drive super slow mechs for one thing, or if you do understand you are a huge target for LRMs and equip AMS and stick near cover.

LRMs are only good against BAD pilots. Seriously. This isn't a "No True Scotsman" thing, the damage an LRM does is inversely related to your target's skill level. Skilled = you will rarely if every hit them. Unskilled = takes damage from LRMs and then comes to the forum and goes, "Guys... what are we going to do about all these OP LRMs."

You sir, are a LRM boat pilot and are not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

LRM boating is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to easy:

1. Take little circle put in big square.
2. Wait for little circle to turn into big circle.
3. Pull trigger.

Extremely little skill required, monkeys and pigeons have been taught to perform much more complex tasks than that, and considering all the add-ons that absolutely increase the viability of LRMS in the game:

Artemis
BAP
TAG
NARC
UAV
All the LRM range modules
All the LRM cool down modules
360 Degree target retention
Sensor Range
Target Decay
Target Comp
Command Console

And what do we have to counter that?
ECM (which a few of the above completely negate)
AMS
AMS range module
AMS overload
Target Depravation

Missile boating is easy, almost too easy under normal circumstances, and definitely too easy during challenges and honestly, unless your intelligence is limited to that of a reuses monkey, I can't see it being entertaining for very long:

Quote

[Lucky Noob]

Oh, easy ? ofc, lets look at lasorz and canons..

See Enemy....
Pull Trigger....

Score....

I see how much more difficult that is

[Dimento Graven]

Braddack, on 26 November 2014 - 07:53 AM, said:

Ah, another one of thoose Treads

Two Days ago i watched an Twitch Stream and the Streamer got owned after taking about 4 Volleys of 2 Boats. Ofc lasers killed him but anyway.

So i said to him, an AMS woud be helpefull here, he answered , an Ams woudnt helped me stay alive . wooot ?

Every damage counts and Missles are great in taking armor apart so that lasers can crit. an AMS woud helped him get rid of about 40 Damage and that woud help him resist the lasers.

As long people dont get it what AMS offers i dont listen to there Crying.

Being an 100 Ton Mech and cant spar 1,5 Tons is just stupid.

and if you think Missles are OP, just ask the Competive crowds why they dont use em.

AMS doesn't destroy 100% of incoming missiles, even if you're in a 'mech that can support more than ONE AMS, the fact is AMS is almost NEVER 100% (unless some moron is shooting one LRM5 stream at a time at you, then MAYBE it can be 100% effective).

So yeah, one AMS against 2 mechs shooting multiple LRM10 (or larger) streams at you, you're going to die if you happen to be out from cover, and OF COURSE, for all other weapons you HAVE to expose yourself to the enemy to use them, UNLIKE LRMs where all it takes is SOMEONE ELSE being able to see the enemy for you and you can fire.

The people you're insinuating are playing badly are NOT actually playing badly. What would you have them do? Sit behind buildings for 15 minutes every match so as to NOT expose themselves to potential LRMs? Of course if they did that they'd never be able to fire their weapons... Your over simple answer shows an EXTREME bias towards LRMs, at best, at the worst is shows an incredible lack of understanding of game play...

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

LRM boating is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY to easy:

1. Take little circle put in big square.
2. Wait for little circle to turn into big circle.
3. Pull trigger.

So basically the same as I do for lasers, auto cannons and PPCs.

[Dimento Graven]

Braddack, on 26 November 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Oh, easy ? ofc, lets look at lasorz and canons..

See Enemy....
Pull Trigger....

Score....

I see how much more difficult that is

Yes, but UNLIKE LRMs and Streaks, lasers and ballistics are NOT computer guided.

You don't even have to "aim" with LRMs or streaks, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. Not so with direct fire weapons, those actually require SKILL to hit an enemy at a distance.

RocketDog, on 26 November 2014 - 08:10 AM, said:

So basically the same as I do for lasers, auto cannons and PPCs.

And if that's all you're doing, you suck at this game.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

Missile boating is easy, almost too easy under normal circumstances, anddefinitely too easy during challenges and honestly, unless your intelligence is limited to that of a reuses monkey, I can't see it being entertaining for very long:

More seriously, lasers are far too easy. The heat is no real problem, there's no need to lead the target, they have instantaneous travel and, unlike LRMs, there are no anti-laser countermeasures.

We should consider making lasers much harder to use because they just reward no-skill lazy play.

[Noesis]

LRMs are fine and need to remain as a viable weapon system.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:

You sir, are a LRM boat pilot and are not allowed to have an opinion on the matter.

You sir are a dolt. I rarely use a mech with even one LRM system much less multiples. The fact is that I long ago(like closed beta) learned how to avoid LRMs and haven't found them threatening since. Thus I don't feel the need to call for nerfs to the WORST weapon in the game.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

The people you're insinuating are playing badly are NOT actually playing badly. What would you have them do? Sit behind buildings for 15 minutes every match so as to NOT expose themselves to potential LRMs? Of course if they did that they'd never be able to fire their weapons... Your over simple answer shows an EXTREME bias towards LRMs, at best, at the worst is shows an incredible lack of understanding of game play...

See, the problem is you think you have to sit behind buildings to avoid LRMs. You can easily advance on an LRM boat by moving from cover to cover and never once stopping to cower in fear. If your opponents lose LoS on you the LRM boat loses his lock. The missiles then hit the last spot he had a lock which is not where you should be standing.

I like how the person having an issue with the most easily avoided weapon system in the game, with the most counters, and least hit percentage for even good players is saying I lack understanding of game play. Sir, in the end it boils down to "I don't get hit by LRMs very often and don't cower behind buildings. So if I can do it, why can't you?"

[Dimento Graven]

RocketDog, on 26 November 2014 - 08:13 AM, said:

More seriously, lasers are far too easy. The heat is no real problem, there's no need to lead the target, they have instantaneous travel and, unlike LRMs, there are no anti-laser countermeasures.

We should consider making lasers much harder to use because they just reward no-skill lazy play.

Except, you actually have to AIM lasers.

LRMs, you just point in a general direction...

Mercules, on 26 November 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

You sir are a dolt. I rarely use a mech with even one LRM system much less multiples. The fact is that I long ago(like closed beta) learned how to avoid LRMs and haven't found them threatening since. Thus I don't feel the need to call for nerfs to the WORST weapon in the game.

I call BS on that, no one would be this passionate about a weapon system if they weren't using it.

No, you're a LRM boater, maybe a 'closet' LRM boater, your secret shame, but yeah, you're a LRM boater absolutely.

[The Amazing Atomic Spaniel]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Except, you actually have to AIM lasers.

LRMs, you just point in a general direction...

I call BS on that, no one would be this passionate about a weapon system if they weren't using it.

No, you're a LRM boater, maybe a 'closet' LRM boater, your secret shame, but yeah, you're a LRM boater absolutely.

Safely beyond parody.

[-Wulf-]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Here's the ultimate fix to LRMS during challenges:

DO NOT COUNT LRM DAMAGE DURING CHALLENGES.

Problem solved.

And to all the people saying, "Just take AMS, problem solved." That response is so stupidly self-serving of you LRM boaters. Take that BS somewhere else.

I've taken AMS and if you have only ONE LRM boat shooting ONE stream of missiles at you, fine, AMS can mitigate a portion of the incoming missiles.

Now, during challenges, when 8 out 12 'mechs PROBABLY have AT LEAST a couple of LRM racks, it's comparable to trying to use a cocktail drink umbrella to stay dry in a monsoon, ie: it not so much...

For everything EXCEPT challenges, LRMs are about where they need to be in efficacy, it's just in challenges where damn near everyone brings missiles that it gets beyond overwhelming.

Mercules, on 26 November 2014 - 07:45 AM, said:

It's easy to say and easy to do. Don't drive super slow mechs for one thing, or if you do understand you are a huge target for LRMs and equip AMS and stick near cover.



LRMs are only good against BAD pilots. Seriously. This isn't a "No True Scotsman" thing, the damage an LRM does is inversely related to your target's skill level. Skilled = you will rarely if every hit them. Unskilled = takes damage from LRMs and then comes to the forum and goes, "Guys... what are we going to do about all these OP LRMs."

Ill spank you driving whatever in my Kintaro, FACE IT there are some exceptional LRM pilots out there, Not all LRM kills are bad pilot kills, I can LRUM anyone, it about how you move, My Kintaro is highly mobile 103 KPH and uses 4 LRM 5's set to chain, Then 2 ML's and a SRM 6, My LRMS are my most destructive weapons. But the biggest killer I have is the SRM6 pack that I use for point defense. So catch me LURMing bum rush me Ill move as fast as some light mechs, then rage cause my Short ranged direct fire kills you. Cry foul and blame it on my LURMS.....


God how asinine, If you look at the game LRMS are here to stay. Too many chassis are geared to LRM's, Catapault,Stormcrow,Vulture,Kintaro,Trebuchet, then you have the chassis who run LRM's as secondary. Fact is missiles are in game cause they are in canon TT battletech. If you want a mech game with no LRMS then go play Armored Core,Hawken.... OH wait there isnt a mech game without LRMS.

LRMS are a baseline weapon in any mech game. Stop Whining about LRMS being nerfed or done away with. Learn to cope with LRMS, Look at it logically if lrms are taken out of the game then, whats next hummm letts see what people are griping about other than lurms. Letts seee ok letts get rid of gauss rifiles now cause lurms are gone, on to the next weapon thats OP get rid of it, when that is gone then we go for Uac 5's cause they are op get rid of them. Then focus on the lasers. They will be op at that point get rid of em.

Before you know it the only weapon in the game are going to be hummmm...NOTHING. Once you delete all the OP weapons wich all will become op if their balancing factor is removed (IE LRMS duck the heads of Gauss Boats)

In effect leaving us with NOTHING no weapons at all, what are we supposed to do then Play demolition derby crashing our mechs into each other until someone finally dies from crash damage.

Is this what you want??????

look at the big picture before you cry foul, Nerfing one weapon will only make its counterbalance more OP then leads to it being nerfed then leading to another weapons system being OP, in turn gets it nerfed, and so on and so fourth. The NERF MONSTER is NEVER ending, cause if players dont like a system they CRY NERFFFFFFF!!!! until its thier perfered weapon system on the chopping block.

How is PGI supposed to Keep a game going if all the players are crying NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF. Or if players are loosing the weapons they play with most.

Take my ML's and Ill rage quit. Rage Quit= No Profit for Company who produces the game = NO GAME anymore. So go ahead a CRY FOUL,m CRY NERF, and ultimately get the game taken down for lack of player base.

Keep it up your doing a BANG UP JOB forcing this game to go extinct.

Edited by Falkwulf, 26 November 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[Spectral Ceramite]

I did not bother reading all sorry cause is another thread on something that is not that big of a deal. But to critique the poll, in the first question you have two responses for yes and only one for no? Seems kind of weird. I mean I teach my grade 5 students you only change one variable in an experiment/investigation. This is the same principle, yet you are clouding a poll with a biased in the first instance with multiple answers to one facet and not the other.

Just my two cents.

[Dimento Graven]

Mercules, on 26 November 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

...
If your opponents lose LoS on you the LRM boat loses his lock. The missiles then hit the last spot he had a lock which is not where you should be standing.

ONLY IF, you happen to be carrying Rader Depravation, OR, the enemy doesn't have a UAV up, OR another enemy from a different location isn't looking at you, OR if you haven't been narc'd, OR if you haven't been TAG'd, then yeah under those particular circumstances the missiles will lose lock and you'll probably not be hit by them.

Quote

I like how the person having an issue with the most easily avoided weapon system in the game, with the most counters, and least hit percentage for even good players is saying I lack understanding of game play. Sir, in the end it boils down to "I don't get hit by LRMs very often and don't cower behind buildings. So if I can do it, why can't you"

"Most counters"?!?! You mean the most enhancers, or did you miss the post where I list them?

The list of items in the game that increase LRM efficacy FAR EXCEEDS the list that counters it, here I'll repost it and re-label it for you:

Items that INCREASE LRM efficacy:
Artemis
BAP
TAG
NARC
UAV
All the LRM range modules
All the LRM cool down modules
360 Degree target retention
Sensor Range
Target Decay
Target Comp
Command Console

Items that DECREASE LRM efficacy:
ECM (which a few of the above completely negate)
AMS
AMS range module
AMS overload
Target Depravation

[Lucky Noob]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

AMS doesn't destroy 100% of incoming missiles, even if you're in a 'mech that can support more than ONE AMS, the fact is AMS is almost NEVER 100% (unless some moron is shooting one LRM5 stream at a time at you, then MAYBE it can be 100% effective).

So yeah, one AMS against 2 mechs shooting multiple LRM10 (or larger) streams at you, you're going to die if you happen to be out from cover, and OF COURSE, for all other weapons you HAVE to expose yourself to the enemy to use them, UNLIKE LRMs where all it takes is SOMEONE ELSE being able to see the enemy for you and you can fire.

The people you're insinuating are playing badly are NOT actually playing badly. What would you have them do? Sit behind buildings for 15 minutes every match so as to NOT expose themselves to potential LRMs? Of course if they did that they'd never be able to fire their weapons... Your over simple answer shows an EXTREME bias towards LRMs, at best, at the worst is shows an incredible lack of understanding of game play...

Okay , read my Post... read it again...and again... okay, now you shoud have gotten the Point of 4 Volleys from 2 Bats, sumary as 8 Volleys, so 8 Times AMS can work...

I never said it destroys, i never said stay 15 min behind Cover, i said, using AMS Lower the incoming Damage and so helps you staying alive.

Shoudnt be that hard to undertsand

[Barantor]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Yes, but UNLIKE LRMs and Streaks, lasers and ballistics are NOT computer guided.

You don't even have to "aim" with LRMs or streaks, just point in the general direction and pull the trigger. Not so with direct fire weapons, those actually require SKILL to hit an enemy at a distance.

Eh, not general direction, you have to keep them lit the entire flight path or they will deviate from course. Unless you are an idiot you also have to know the map fairly well so that you don't send volley after volley into a rock or mountain or building.

You also have to move, unless you are in the herd of your team, which does happen sometimes in pug games and makes LRMing even easier.

Basic LRMing is easy, when you have a big mech with 1k missiles, it is easy to get kills because you can afford to waste ammo, just send volley after volley into one mech that the brawlers are already taking on.

More advanced LRMing happens at the level where you don't have the weight or room to take more ammo and have to make sure every missile hits. It doesn't get talked about on here much, because everyone is thinking about those dummies with stalkers lined with missiles sitting in the back with ecm cover just blurping all their ammo at whatever lights up.

You see fewer mediums and lights use LRMs (clans aside, that puma has to i guess) than you do the wasted space of assaults with thousands of rounds of ammo.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

And if that's all you're doing, you suck at this game.

At it's base, pointing and clicking is what this game is about. It is the piloting, positioning and paying attention that separates the good pilots from the bad, not just the gunnery. I've seen terrible gunners find the best locations to shoot from on an enemy and rack up kills because they could put round after round out.

Part of the reason I don't like this games scoring system is because the damage seems to be kinda the number folks go to. A good gunnery or pilot of a mech won't have high numbers, he will have low numbers and kills.

LRM blurpers think they are doing good when they get 1k+ damage with LRMs. Taking off arms of banshee 3Ms that have nothing in them doesn't help kill the mech as well as 3 hits in the back with 2x ac10s, or even 4 volleys of lrm5s direct fired with artemis from the rear.


If LRMs are to change though, it would have to be in conjunction with many other systems and changes like C3 being a requirement to target friendlies targets and ECM becoming what it was lore wise. I don't think those are going to change so I'm fine with the way that LRMs are now.

I guess we will see how well LRMs do in CW next month? Tournaments are one thing, but CW to me is the real deal.

[Lucky Noob]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

ONLY IF, you happen to be carrying Rader Depravation, OR, the enemy doesn't have a UAV up, OR another enemy from a different location isn't looking at you, OR if you haven't been narc'd, OR if you haven't been TAG'd, then yeah under those particular circumstances the missiles will lose lock and you'll probably not be hit by them.

"Most counters"?!?! You mean the most enhancers, or did you miss the post where I list them?

The list of items in the game that increase LRM efficacy FAR EXCEEDS the list that counters it, here I'll repost it and re-label it for you:

Items that INCREASE LRM efficacy:
Artemis
BAP
TAG
NARC
UAV
All the LRM range modules
All the LRM cool down modules
360 Degree target retention
Sensor Range
Target Decay
Target Comp
Command Console

Items that DECREASE LRM efficacy:
ECM (which a few of the above completely negate)
AMS
AMS range module
AMS overload
Target Depravation

Nice work.

maybe you can tell me all Counters to laser and canon ?

and no Cover dont count.

[Gooner]

I'll tell you one thing, there are too many forum threads about there being too many LRMs.

Tried to vote no to question 1, but it wouldn't let me ignore question 2.