432 replies to this topic

[AlphaToaster]

Vezm, on 26 November 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

You kind of described role warfare.

That's a good point. Notice how we see so few lights in the queue at times? Well lights play a big part in shutting down the other teams LRM boats. LRMS only seem like a problem because their natural predator is suffering from low population.

Remember folks, LRM boats fold when pressure is applied.

Assault LRM boats are almost completely defenseless vs a light mech.

For every LRM boat the enemy team brings, they are that much weaker vs a brawl. A team with 4 or 5 LRM boats CANNOT survive a push. And I don't mean advance half way then stop under fire, I mean an in-your-face furball. LRMs fold, period.

Edited by AlphaToaster, 26 November 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Violent Nick]

A sense-talker... I like it.

[Boris The Spider]

s0hno, on 26 November 2014 - 11:34 AM, said:

No.

er... yes. If PGI uses the market to artificially modify player behaviour, without changing the statistics of the available equipment and LRM use either subsides or becomes less effective it can only mean that there was an issue with player behaviour... ergo, the L2P guys were not being elitist or lobbying for LRM's, they were giving out useful advice that people were refusing to heed.

[s0hno]

Boris The Spider, on 26 November 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

er... yes. If PGI uses the market to artificially modify player behaviour, without changing the statistics of the available equipment and LRM use either subsides or becomes less effective it can only mean that there was an issue with player behaviour... ergo, the L2P guys were not being elitist or lobbying for LRM's, they were giving out useful advice that people were refusing to heed.

Just no. But if it makes you feel better, yes. I don't care anymore, this "everyone who's not of my opinion is a noob"-trashtalk makes me tired. Cya!

Edited by s0hno, 26 November 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[damonwolf]

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True on the statistics, but this is something we all notice challenge after challenge after challenge:



Before the challenge, you'll see on average 2 or 3 missile boats per side per drop.

During challenge, you'll see on average 6 to 8 (or more) missile boats per side per drop.

It's been commented on damn near every challenge since PGI started having weekly challenges.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Your so full of ****. You stated to an earlier poster about your MADE UP statics:
"It's an observation made over the last several challenges, not just by me but by damn near every other half-way observant player in this game."
Your stats are you observation. Just because you and your roommate Steve see something does not make it "true" nor does it include "we all".

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1. LRM damage shouldn't be scored for challenges, or at the very least the score benefit LRM damage adds to the score should be significantly reduced.

2. LRMs are "easy mode". They require significantly less skill from an individual player, for that player to do well with them.

Do not NERF LRM damage or functionality, NERF how they are scored during challenges.

Again, you want everything except YOUR weapon system nerfed. You want only your weapon damage to count in Challeneges...REALLY?! Your just a selfish pilot that elevates your own success above the teams or anyone else's. Basically, your posts read "@#$% everyone else but me".

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An overly simplified view of the situation and looks like a self-serving LRM boat pilot's opinion to me.

You obviously don't want to read or consider the opinions, observations, and facts of ANY pilots, and would rather deflect valid arguments and put someone on the defensive with inferred insults so they spend more time answering them than continuing to defeat you arguments.

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Most of the typical assault 'mech builds I've seen move around 60kph, max. Hell, for the Direwhale, the best possible speed is 53.5, PERIOD. Most 'mech chassis only have ONE slot for AMS, and those heavies and assaults that have more than one slot only allow TWO (if I'm wrong and there's a heavy/assault chassis that can sport more than 2 let me know I might be misremembering) maximum, so your argument that they 'refuse' to move and 'refuse' to equip AMS is BS. They probably ARE moving and DO have AMS, but they just can't move that fast, and the efficacy of AMS during challenges is significantly reduced with increased number of LRM boats being dropped.

I stated that they refuse to equip AMS because they would have to change their meta/high DPS builds and I stand by that. They would rather b!tch about LRMS than take the necessary steps/confessions to negate said LRMs.
With Clans, MWO shares in much of the blame because in many cases to get AMS Clan pilots would have to put in a Omni-Pod that has slots for nothing else. That's bad design, and the Devs should be ashamed of it (especially those Devs that b!tch about LRM use cough cough Russ cough cough).
As for the slow moving part, that's not what I was referring to, but I will answer that. Slow moving mechs getting eaten up in the rear tends to be the result of 2 things mostly: 1) horribly designed spawn points forcing slow mechs to fall behind and get caught by the adversaries fast mechs (they usually die to light/Med mech weapons rather than LRMs, but I digress), and 2) Your speedier team mechs running all out to catch the adversaries slow mechs, thus leaving the slow assaults behind. That's a team failure to protect their valuable assaults. I personally always escort the Assaults as I recognize their value to victory.

Edited by damonwolf, 26 November 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

LRMs need a complete overhaul of mechanics IMHO. Right now they are only good if boated in really large numbers and aren't rewarding (enjoyable) to use, IMHO.

Anything else will not make any difference. If their damage/speed/angle is nerfed they won't be usable even when boating even vs inexperienced teams (the conditions which make them usable right now), but they will remain the same old non-involving rubbish.

[Barantor]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

A brawl vs. furball, I guess we have different opinions on what each is. For me a brawl and 'furball' are the same thing really, it's just that a 'furball' is more intense with more 'mechs. 'Brawling' is just a few less 'mechs I guess... Yes, it's possible for a single 'mech to brawl multiple lesser skilled 'mechs one or two at a time, and get 8 kills, but again, the point is in a brawl or furball you're not doing damage to an enemy who can't see you.

In a match with equally skilled opponents '8 kills' not something that is anywhere near easy, nor common, unlike LRMs.

I don't feel that 8 kills even with lrms is as common as you're putting forth. I've seen lights that leg get 8 kills as often as I've seen LRMs do that, and it isn't very often that someone (maybe just my elo? dunno I'm not terrible lol) gets 8 kills regardless of their mech loadout.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

It's an observation made over the last several challenges, not just by me but by damn near every other half-way observant player in this game.

Every time there's a challenge the number of LRM boating mechs that drop increases, it does, it's a fact, and it increases CONSIDERABLY, hence, EVERY dang time we have these challenges, there's post after post after post of people calling for LRM nerfs, and after the challenge is over, we see less LRM boats drop and the number of "new" LRM nerf posts decreases.

Now, I'm not calling for a LRM nerf, I'm calling for a change to the scoring so that damage that is occurring because the computer is guiding the weapon to the target, and where most damage is done with the assistance of other 'mechs, and taking advantage of all the plethora of enhancement modules and equipment.

LRMs in and of themselves ARE FINE.

It's the scoring that encourages a majority of people to default to LRM boat usage that needs to change.

I think you see more of them because more folks come back to the game just for the challenges and figure that LRMs are an 'easy way' to put some numbers on the board.

Also these past few challenges have added in the clan mechs, which can use LRMs easier than IS having to boat, so that could skew the numbers or perception a bit. I still doubt it is as dramatic numbers as you state though.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Except that I did a majority of my damage with the LRMs, opening up crit locations so that the lasers could finish them off.

As a side note: You may not have noticed, but missiles are currently designed with a 'crit averse' logic. Take a stationary 'mech and start firing LRMs at it, watch how the missiles start landing when locations start getting darker. But that 'crit averse' logic is more or less defeated when you go from 2 or 3 mechs firing missiles at a target verses 6 or 8, or more...

Oh I know, that is the main use of LRMs anyway to strip armor off of mechs. Your missiles were better at this because of tag and artemis, which condensed their locations, especially on that poor awesome 9M that was crossing the water at the end.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Back on topic, in that drop we really on had two 'mechs boating LRMs, mine and another, and the affect was fairly significant, especially since most of the missiles I fired and hit I did not have line of site, yet I was able to have a significant affect on the enemy with them, however, had there been no spotting and I'd been limited to my own direct line of sight visuals for the aiming, I'd have been a lot less effective.

The advantage is the ease at which I can take advantage of what my teammate's are doing.

Which doesn't apply as much now, since the classes for drops are limited. You had a stalker's worth of weight devoted to LRMs. 1/7 assaults. If we do that now, it is more limiting since if you devote 1 assault to LRMs then the other assaults have to make up that loss in armor weight and direct fire weaponry.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

For CHALLENGE scoring this seems a bit wrong as the other members of the team who are doing the spotting TYPICALLY aren't getting any score benefit from assisting me. The typical challenge calc has been something on the order of:

((Kills * x)+(Assists * y)+(damage on enemy - damage on team)/15)

So... Missile boats who are primarily utilizing indirect fire, getting lots of damage, lots of assist and maybe a few kills primarily benefit from the efforts of the rest of the team at very low risk to themselves.

While those team members who are in line of sight really aren't rewarded for the risks they are taking.

This encourages a shift from the standard mix of 2 or 3 missile boats being dropped per side each match to 6 to 9 being dropped per match during challenges.

Reduce/eliminate the scoring vs. risk advantage these 'mechs get during challenges and the problem of 'too much' LRM usage during challenges will go away.

This is where I think the clans mess things up. Most of them can carry a launcher or two with a reasonable amount of ammo and do relatively well with them for not as much weight as an IS 'boat' has to dedicate to the same systems. When any damage done to another mech, even indirectly can cause an assist for the challenge a clan pilot would be dumb not to put an lrm on considering it's range potential alone.

An IS pilot on the other hand, has to take a considerable hit to his other types of damage in order to gain that indirect ability and thus it makes IS boats either all or nothing when it comes to the challenges.

I would rather change the challenge requirements as a whole than mess with one weapon system in them.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

As one who has experience with every weapon system and darn near every weapon layout possible in this game, I can say from my experience of playing since closed beta to date, has led me to have a very informed opinion that for the most part LRM boating is "EASY MODE" in MWO.

All things taken into account, it's easier to do well with computer guided missiles than it is to do well with any other weapon system. LRMs are by far the easiest. Streak missiles is another subject but those have, at best, a 'situational' ease.

I've played as long (maybe longer? I was in first wave beta *shrug*) and I will totally agree that LRMs are stupid easy to learn.

The only thing I disagree on is that you can do better the more time you learn about the game as a whole and how that LRMs can be used to eek out every last missile doing it's best. You want to hit with every missile? That isn't as easy mode as the point and click style. I try to get my hit percentages as high up as I can because if I can get them up, that is more damage for me and most of the time more wins.

TL;DR that = practice makes you better, even easier weapons to learn

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Yes, but knowledge isn't skill. That's why whenever I've seen a PGI employee drop in a match, 19 times out of 20, they appear to do poorly vs. the rest of us. These employees would be in a position to have the most 'knowledge' of the weapon systems, but it's the ability to put that knowledge to use that measures the skill.

Unfortunately with LRMs... You only need a little knowledge, and very little practice to be able to utilize them to near their maximum potential. The ultimate result is they don't require much skill.

Skill is applying knowledge in a practical sense. Employees of PGI might know what the weapons can do, but the knowledge of how to use them well (i.e. skill) is a different story.

They don't require much skill to use, but I still think they require skill to be able to be used to their full potential (ala not spammed)

I think we kinda talked around each other on that one, thus is the problem with text type conversations sometimes.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Sure, but if they just sat behind buildings cowering in fear of my missiles, they'd still have been just as dead. AT SOME POINT if you have direct fire weapons you HAVE to come out from behind cover to fire them.

Unlike missiles, that can utilize what your team members see to provide you your indirect targeting. During a challenge, why should I be allowed full score for that?

See though, not everyone is cowering in fear behind a building using LRMs, you yourself weren't even in the video the whole time, you just weren't taking direct fire.

If there was a differentiation between direct fire damage LRMs and indirect, I might be with you on the scoring so that it doesn't completely nerf any mech that is mostly LRMs or set up for that (catapult, treb, etc) but unfortunately we don't have that so I don't think it is a fair thing to do.

See in the background pic the catapult over on the left? That is about how I run my catapult most times, with a tag laser coming out the nose. If I'm doing that and didn't get points I would be a bit pissed.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Because the level of skill I utilize to headshot someone playing peek-a-boo vs. the skill I utilize to launch LRMs at the same target when someone else is doing the spotting, or because I can take advantage of a UAV, are "snot loads" different. We're back to Pintos vs Space Shuttles again.

You can take advantage of other systems as well though, ground sensors, other people spotting where the other mech is (and which way it is facing). The UAV benefits direct fire too, they just can't do damage indirectly. Challenge points aside, LRMs don't do near the damage (especially to one mech section) that a direct fire weapon can.

One thing I have been for since the beginning of this game is that indirect LRMs should be 50% as effective as direct fired LRMs. I think this would fix a lot of things for folks.

I question as well if you have as much problem with artillery? Seems lots of folks hate LRMs but don't hate artillery. Both have indirect fire, both do scattered damage.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Streaks are easy but the one thing streaks require that LRMs don't is direct line of sight, and the fact that the range is so limited also adds a level of risk not experienced by LRM boaters, so now we're comparing apples and pears. Similar, but not quite the same.

Like I said above, I wish direct fire LRMs were more like streaks and less like lobbed artillery even when you can see the enemy.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

Actually you bring up an interesting point. Perhaps challenges should be scored as follows:

(solo kill * X)+(assists * Y)+(((damage on enemy-LRM damage)-damage on team)/15))

This would reward players for only for the kills where they did the most damage, still reward for assists, and discouraging the over use of LRMs.

I would rather just take the assists and kills out of the equation really. Do over X damage, win, and survive would be fine by me. This keeps afkers from getting points and still encourages folks to not walk to their doom to just get one kill. Would it solve LRM spam? Nope, but it would be more fair and less odd to try and 'game' the system.

I got that point with that hurried laser spam, but it sure didn't feel like I did much 'assisting'.

[Dimento Graven]

damonwolf, on 26 November 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Your so full of ****. You stated to an earlier poster about your MADE UP statics:
"It's an observation made over the last several challenges, not just by me but by damn near every other half-way observant player in this game".
Your stats are you observation. Just because you and your roommate Steve see something does not make it "true" nor does it include "we all".

All you have to do is open your eyes and look. Where right now, you'll pretty much see only 2 or 3 missile boats, as soon as a challenge starts on Friday, BAM, start counting, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 'mechs boating missiles.

'Boating' in this case is anything carrying two or more.

This isn't "made up" this is direct observation of a significant portion of the players, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the "nerf LRM" posts dramatically increase in frequency starting Friday and continuing through to Monday.

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Again, you want everything except YOUR weapon system nerfed. You want only your weapon damage to count in Challeneges...REALLY?! Your just a selfish pilot that elevates your own success above the teams or anyone else's. Basically, your posts read "@#&#%" everyone else but me".

Considering that most LRMs are indirect fire, utilizing someone else's targeting data, why should only YOU get full credit for it?

If the game made it impossible for you to benefit from someone else's tag, NARC, UAV or targeting data, fine, the full score should be awarded to you alone. However we know it's not the case, you get to sit back and put a small circle in a big square, wait for the big circle to show up and pull a trigger, you may not have even had to move from where you spawned to do it.

And you want to take full credit for that?

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You obviously don't want to read or consider the opinions, observations, and facts of ANY pilots, and would rather deflect valid arguments and put someone on the defensive with inferred insults so they spend more time answering them than continuing to defeat you arguments.

Show me some facts. So far you've just been an idiot (direct insult), choosing to be arrogantly ignorant of easily observed and repeatedly posted on facts of game play.

I've only been returning the 'inferred insults' I've been receiving.

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I stated that they refuse to equip AMS because they would have to change their meta/high DPS builds and I stand by that. They would rather b!tch about LRMS than take the necessary steps/confessions to negate said LRMs.

Again, you seem to be inferring that all 'mechs can immediately and instantly move out of the way of missiles, and that AMS is a 100% effective counter to missiles.

While under NORMAL circumstances both are effective, when it comes to playing during the challenges where the population of missile boating 'mechs dramatically increases, the standard counters aren't anywhere near as effective.

When you're the target of 4 or more missile streams, you could probably have nothing BUT AMS and still die. When you're the target of 4 or more missile streams, moving that 100 meters at 53.5kph still leaves you exposed for FAR TOO LONG.

You refuse to see that or acknowledge that making you extremely unreasonable.

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With Clans, MWO shares in much of the blame because in many cases to get AMS Clan pilots would have to put in a Omni-Pod that has slots for nothing else. that's bad design, and the Devs should be ashamed of it (especially those Devs that b!tch about LRM use cough cough Russ cough cough).
As for the slow moving part, that';s not what I was referring to, but I will answer that. Slow moving mechs getting eaten up in the rear tends to be the result of 2 things mostly: 1) horribly designed spawn points forcing slow mechs to fall behind and get caught by the adversaries fast mechs (they usually die to light mech weapons rather than LRMs, but I digress), and 2) The speedier team running all out to catch the adversaries slow mechs, thus leaving the slow assaults behind. That's a team failure to protect their valuable assaults. I personally always escort the Assaults as I recognize their value to victory.

Yes, spawn points are bad, and yes, team dynamics are bad too especially due to the lack of VOIP that might mitigate it, I totally agree with you the public queues could do better to support the far lances in River City, Tourmaline Desert, Crimson Straight, and Caustic Valley, however, that STILL won't mitigate what has happened challenge after challenge after challenge after challenge after challenge:

Namely: People strap on multiple LRM tubes and sit back for a protracted indirect fire battle.

Why? Because it's easier, and far less risky, to put a little circle in a big square, wait for the big circle and pull a trigger on an enemy that can't even shoot back at you than it is to walk out and find them and fire at them directly.

If you bring enough missiles you're probably going to get at least one kill and DEFINITELY many, many assists, without too much effort, AND, again without too much effort are going to be able to rack up well over 500 damage (if not closer to 1000) each match.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

s0hno, on 24 November 2014 - 03:10 AM, said:

Hi Mechwarriors,

I am concerned about high LRM boating in pug drops. It's ok to have 1 or max 2 LRM boats per game with some support launchers equipped, but at this time, it feels like 4 or more mechs per team use LRMs as the primary weapon system.

Edit1:
Personally, I don't consider LRMs to be op. In pugs, however, boating heavily puts the suppressed team in a defending position, since coordinating is difficult, and countermeasures like AMS or ECM are not adjustable nor distributed evenly.

The suggestion is to introduce/improve countermeasures, such as the AMS.

There are many posts around with suggestions how to handle the situation:
- AMS rewards
- Introduce laser driven AMS
- prohibit massive LRM usage by increased heat generation
- LRM usage adjustments (LOS -> Line-Of-Sight dependent etc.)
- adjust challenges in way that does not advantage LRMs
- new modules
- PPC sensor distruption
etc.

I like all the ideas, but since there are a lot of discussions and implementing all possibilities at once would be overcompensating, I want to know your opinion which seems most appropriate.

Edit2:
Sorry for the forced vote on option 2, I assumed that one can vote on option 1 without the second one. Unfortunately, the poll has been moved here from the suggestion section and is not editable any more.



Greetings

I'm sorry, but I will not vote in your poll as it is based on the fallacy that there is something wrong with the mechanics of LRM's.

I believe differently, and must submit the fact that most people who die to LRM barrages:

1. Aren't being very intelligent about using cover or terrain to avoid being barraged to death.
2. Are not playing as part of a TEAM IN A TEAM BASED GAME, and go off to die alone.
3. Are playing defensive peek-a-boo and get spotted and focus fired upon because they're the only mech visible and get ALL of the LRM's rained on to them.
4. "Think" they are behind cover when someone pops a UAV, they don't see the UAV and cry foul instead of shooting it down while being LRM'd to death.
5. Don't take AMS and whine when no one else does.
6. Don't take ECM and whine when no one else does.
7. Don't rush the missle launching mech, and whine when no one else does.
8. Don't rush the enemy team, and whine when no one else does.

As you can see, there are a lot of other reasons as to why people die to LRM's and how they can choose to negate the LRM advantage.

But the problem is "Choice." Most people who consistently die to LRM's, choose to not help themselves with available missile deterrents, choose to not play as a team, or most importantly, choose to be willfully dense of the fact that they are playing poorly and need to improve.

No matter how hard one tries to adjust or alter the mechanics of a game, you'll never be able to fix stupid.

PROTIP: For the willfully dense, please use this visual aid as a reference to help improve your MW:O experience.

Edited by 00ohDstruct, 26 November 2014 - 01:15 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Barantor, on 26 November 2014 - 12:26 PM, said:

I don't feel that 8 kills even with lrms is as common as you're putting forth. I've seen lights that leg get 8 kills as often as I've seen LRMs do that, and it isn't very often that someone (maybe just my elo? dunno I'm not terrible lol) gets 8 kills regardless of their mech loadout.

I rarely pilot my LRM boats any more, they're not that fun/challenging, but, point taken, maybe it isn't that common, it's just that when "I" do, I can usually count on a few of my matches having a large kill number. Guessing that there are at least a "few" other people as equally skilled as I'm experiencing the same thing, I would hazard to guess that it happens often enough...

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I think you see more of them because more folks come back to the game just for the challenges and figure that LRMs are an 'easy way' to put some numbers on the board.

Also these past few challenges have added in the clan mechs, which can use LRMs easier than IS having to boat, so that could skew the numbers or perception a bit. I still doubt it is as dramatic numbers as you state though.

Yes, they see LRMs as an 'easy way' put numbers on the board BECAUSE, IT IS an easy way to put numbers on the board.

That's exactly my point.

And yes, the clan ability to have missiles do damage at under 180meters also goes a long way to encouraging more 'mechs to load up multiple racks, but again, it goes more to my point that missiles are among the easiest least risk vs. reward weapon in the game, and should probably have their scores reflect such.

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Oh I know, that is the main use of LRMs anyway to strip armor off of mechs. Your missiles were better at this because of tag and artemis, which condensed their locations, especially on that poor awesome 9M that was crossing the water at the end.

Right but did you notice how infrequently the orange/red locations were getting hit as compared to before they turned red/orange.

It happens every time I watch missiles hitting something, even when I'm just observing another person fire LRMs...

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Which doesn't apply as much now, since the classes for drops are limited. You had a stalker's worth of weight devoted to LRMs. 1/7 assaults. If we do that now, it is more limiting since if you devote 1 assault to LRMs then the other assaults have to make up that loss in armor weight and direct fire weaponry.

Except that during challenges it's not uncommon to see 3 assaults, 3 heavies and multiple heavies/lights sporting multiple LRM racks, where during non-challenge periods those racks would be SRM/SSRM or something else altogether...

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This is where I think the clans mess things up. Most of them can carry a launcher or two with a reasonable amount of ammo and do relatively well with them for not as much weight as an IS 'boat' has to dedicate to the same systems. When any damage done to another mech, even indirectly can cause an assist for the challenge a clan pilot would be dumb not to put an lrm on considering it's range potential alone.

An IS pilot on the other hand, has to take a considerable hit to his other types of damage in order to gain that indirect ability and thus it makes IS boats either all or nothing when it comes to the challenges.

I would rather change the challenge requirements as a whole than mess with one weapon system in them.

I'm going for the 'lowest hanging fruit' here though. Sure it'd great to instead add to the score potential by correctly awarding those providing the 'indirect targeting' information the missile boats are taking advantage of, but then that gets complicated by the possibility of multiple people tag'ing/narc'ing/UAV'ing/targeting a single target that a LRM boat is hitting.

Who gets the award and how much?

Nope, instead let's try and balance it by eliminating/curtailing the damage portion of the scores the LRM boats would get as they are typically not doing all their own targeting.

The LRM boat would still get the kill count, and assist count, just not so much/any of the damage count.

I think MOST of the challenges to date could have been completed by a missile boat sans missile damage as part of the score just solely based on the number of assists alone.

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I've played as long (maybe longer? I was in first wave beta *shrug*) and I will totally agree that LRMs are stupid easy to learn.

The only thing I disagree on is that you can do better the more time you learn about the game as a whole and how that LRMs can be used to eek out every last missile doing it's best. You want to hit with every missile? That isn't as easy mode as the point and click style. I try to get my hit percentages as high up as I can because if I can get them up, that is more damage for me and most of the time more wins.

TL;DR that = practice makes you better, even easier weapons to learn.

Skill is applying knowledge in a practical sense. Employees of PGI might know what the weapons can do, but the knowledge of how to use them well (i.e. skill) is a different story.

They don't require much skill to use, but I still think they require skill to be able to be used to their full potential (ala not spammed)

I think we kinda talked around each other on that one, thus is the problem with text type conversations sometimes.

Well I think in this we differ in our opinions on just how much more can be eeked out, and how difficult it really is to do that additional 'eeking'...

Especially considering all the modules and additional equipment that can be equipped to enhance the efficacy...

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See though, not everyone is cowering in fear behind a building using LRMs, you yourself weren't even in the video the whole time, you just weren't taking direct fire.

If there was a differentiation between direct fire damage LRMs and indirect, I might be with you on the scoring so that it doesn't completely nerf any mech that is mostly LRMs or set up for that (catapult, treb, etc) but unfortunately we don't have that so I don't think it is a fair thing to do.

See in the background pic the catapult over on the left? That is about how I run my catapult most times, with a tag laser coming out the nose. If I'm doing that and didn't get points I would be a bit pissed.

We're back to the difficulty factor of it. If the challenge scores properly compensated players for spotting, NARC'ing/TAG'ing/UAV'ing/targeting enemy 'mechs, I don't think I'd even be participating in this discussion, as from my perspective it wouldn't be moot. If all the indirect spotting, etc., were properly scored, then LRM boat fighting "directly" would receive spot bonuses from their own fire too.

I think it'd just be too difficult to work out, so better to just go with Solomon and cut that baby in half, get rid of the damage count portion of it, while keeping the kills and assist count portion.

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You can take advantage of other systems as well though, ground sensors, other people spotting where the other mech is (and which way it is facing). The UAV benefits direct fire too, they just can't do damage indirectly. Challenge points aside, LRMs don't do near the damage (especially to one mech section) that a direct fire weapon can.

But that's my point too. In the scoring methodology getting an assist on 10 'mechs (very easily done in a LRM boat that can fire indirectly) will can usually get you a "point" towards the challenge. Any kills and any damage counts is usually just 'extra insurance' on your score.

This latest challenge was only more difficult due to the two additional requirements of:

A. Being on the winning side.
B. Surviving

Surviving in a LRM boat, at the very least starts out easier because you don't have to come into view of the enemy to fire your weapons at them. You can let some scout (if one dropped with you) or some direct fire build do that risky portion of the battle for you.

Yes, later on if/when the enemy's light/medium boat hunters (if they brought any) come find you, might have issues, but it still adds up to LESS RISK over all for missile boats than other builds.

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One thing I have been for since the beginning of this game is that indirect LRMs should be 50% as effective as direct fired LRMs. I think this would fix a lot of things for folks.

Honestly, other than for challenges, I'm mostly fine with how LRMs work now.

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I question as well if you have as much problem with artillery? Seems lots of folks hate LRMs but don't hate artillery. Both have indirect fire, both do scattered damage.

Like I said above, I wish direct fire LRMs were more like streaks and less like lobbed artillery even when you can see the enemy.

I, historically, have called strikes "40k admissions of inadequacy", up until the point that PGI forced me to start equipping them (since I can only equip ONE UAV at a time, and my typical dual gauss builds do not require coolant pods, and there's no other "consumable" worth a flying F... Had PGI converted ONE of the consumable slots to a MECH/Consumable, I'd be a much happier player and there'd be at least ONE less strike dropping in matches that I'm in).

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I would rather just take the assists and kills out of the equation really. Do over X damage, win, and survive would be fine by me. This keeps afkers from getting points and still encourages folks to not walk to their doom to just get one kill. Would it solve LRM spam? Nope, but it would be more fair and less odd to try and 'game' the system.

I got that point with that hurried laser spam, but it sure didn't feel like I did much 'assisting'.

Hmmm... I'd be willing to at least try that to see the results.

[kazlaton]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 12:37 PM, said:

Show me some facts. So far you've just been an idiot (direct insult), choosing to be arrogantly ignorant of easily observed and repeatedly posted on facts of game play.

I've only been returning the 'inferred insults' I've been receiving.

Actually Dimento, you have been insulting from your very first post.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

That response is so stupidly self-serving of you LRM boaters. Take that BS somewhere else.

But don't let evidence get in the way of your temper tantrum.

[damonwolf]

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This isn't "made up" this is direct observation of a significant portion of the players, otherwise we wouldn't be seeing the "nerf LRM" posts dramatically increase in frequency starting Friday and continuing through to Monday.

You continue to state your observations as overall factual data for MWO. Your observations are not statistics for the population of MWO. Period. They are only your observations. Just because a very miniscule percentage of the MWo population (usually very inexperienced or bad players) gets on and makes "NERFZ LRMS PL0X" posts does not make them a significant portion of the population. My observations reference LRM use significantly differ from your own, but I am not so arrogant as to imply or state that they are true facts and stats for the population.

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Considering that most LRMs are indirect fire, utilizing someone else's targeting data, why should only YOU get full credit for it?

If the game made it impossible for you to benefit from someone else's tag, NARC, UAV or targeting data, fine, the full score should be awarded to you alone. However we know it's not the case, you get to sit back and put a small circle in a big square, wait for the big circle to show up and pull a trigger, you may not have even had to move from where you spawned to do it.

People do share in the magic of LRMs. They get TAG/NARC/Spotter bonuses. LRMS soften the target up by stripping the armor so that others can get the killing blow that the LRM boats worked on (LRM pilots have many kills stolen from them, but it's not KS really because it's supposed to be a team effort, right? Right?
Any rationally thinking pilot will appreciate that the LRM boats are softening their targets up and helping them kill it instead of being selfish, short-sighted resentful. And it's BS that most LRM boats "wait for the big circle to show up and pull a trigger". Many TAG their own Mechs for destruction (especially when it has ECM) and ARTEMIS requires LoS.

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Show me some facts. So far you've just been an idiot (direct insult), choosing to be arrogantly ignorant of easily observed and repeatedly posted on facts of game play.

You haven't shown ANY facts, only YOUR observations. Observations you attempt to portray as factual. MWO does not release such info. You (and I) can only relay experiences, observations, and basic truths. In the next quote from you, you AGAIN quote your observations as fact:

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While under NORMAL circumstances both are effective, when it comes to playing during the challenges where the population of missile boating 'mechs dramatically increases, the standard counters aren't anywhere near as effective.

Show me @#$%ing proof of this! Not something you see. Please don't call things facts or something the MWO population experiences when they are your own personal experiences and observations again.

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Why? Because it's easier, and far less risky, to put a little circle in a big square, wait for the big circle and pull a trigger on an enemy that can't even shoot back at you

Really? ER lasers, PPCs, and Gauss are the same way. The ranges they can hit people are greater than LRM distances. So, if you can hit LRM boats when they can't even target you, does that make your weapons easy mode? hint: yes. Lasers are point and shoot and you are able to rake them across mechs. Easy Mode? @#$% yeah. Gauss? please...you can shoot them from long distances and it's impossible to see/hear where they came from. And the pinpoint damage they do is extreme. Easy mode? yes...on close or stationary mechs at distance.

I

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f you bring enough missiles you're probably going to get at least one kill and DEFINITELY many, many assists, without too much effort, AND, again without too much effort are going to be able to rack up well over 500 damage (if not closer to 1000) each match.

BS. LRMs aren't effective if the target disappears, which happens a lot in indirect fire mode. Bad, inexperienced pilots, or ones with bad connections do crap for damage. They fire into mountains/hills, they don't realize the enemy is behind cover, waste missiles like crazy. I can still remember the LRM bug where many first shots went into the dirt. Being a good, effective, efficient LRM pilots is not easy mode and they have to work for it.

[Dimento Graven]

kazlaton, on 26 November 2014 - 01:17 PM, said:

Actually Dimento, you have been insulting from your very first post.

But don't let evidence get in the way of your temper tantrum.

Yes, and only hard core self-deluded LRM boat pilots would be offended...

And really, no one gives a **** about them anyway.

[Sean von Steinike]

LRMs are marginal, unless you suck. Then you whine about them.

[Dimento Graven]

damonwolf, on 26 November 2014 - 01:18 PM, said:

You continue to state your observations as overall factual data for MWO. Your observations are not statistics for the population of MWO. Period. They are only your observations. Just because a very miniscule percentage of the MWo population (usually very inexperienced or bad players) gets on and makes "NERFZ LRMS PL0X" posts does not make them a significant portion of the population. My observations reference LRM use significantly differ from your own, but I am not so arrogant as to imply or state that they are true facts and stats for the population.

Hmm... Too bad, you're either unobservant or just purposely refusing to see it.

That has been 100% my experience with the challenges.

An observation that can be repeated is usually a fairly significant fact.

I equate the number of LRM boating 'mechs increasing in number for challenges with the sun rising in the east, or less daylight in winter.

It is a predictable fact that can be evidenced through direct observation.

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People do share in the magic of LRMs. They get TAG/NARC/Spotter bonuses. LRMS soften the target up by stripping the armor so that others can get the killing blow that the LRM boats worked on (LRM pilots have many kills stolen from them, but it's not KS really because it's supposed to be a team effort, right? Right?

So... For the challenges where the calculation for scoring has been:

(Kills * X)+(Assists * Y)+((Damage on Enemy - Team Damage)/15)

Where do the 'points' from TAG/NARC/Spotter come in?

It might have changed and I missed it, but I don't think it yet counts as a "kill assist" just because you put a NARC/TAG/UAV up? Even if it currently is, you still don't get any "damage points" assessed towards your score, even though it probably would have been impossible for that missile boat to hit that ECM'd enemy without your TAG/NARC/UAV being up to counter their ECM.

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Any rationally thinking pilot will appreciate that the LRM boats are softening their targets up and helping them kill it instead of being selfish, short-sighted resentful. And it's BS that most LRM boats "wait for the big circle to show up and pull a trigger". Many TAG their own Mechs for destruction (especially when it has ECM) and ARTEMIS requires LoS.

And if the scoring methodology correctly differentiated the damage inflicted on a target you have under LoS vs. one you're firing indirectly at, this wouldn't even be moot.

However, current scoring methodologies are favoring a least risk vs. reward playing style that I've seen everyone from the freshest noob to the most elite Lord/Ancient employ.

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You haven't shown ANY facts, only YOUR observations. Observations you attempt to portray as factual. MWO does not release such info. You (and I) can only relay experiences, observations, and basic truths. In the next quote from you, you AGAIN quote your observations as fact:

Show me @#$%ing proof of this! Not something you see. Please don't call things facts or something the MWO population experiences when they are your own personal experiences and observations again.

While I can't myself tell you exactly when the sun rose and when it will set today, I CAN tell you today there was less day light than yesterday. I can't show you statistics that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow, BUT I can predict it will because every other morning it has.

Just like with the challenges, I don't have direct access to the numbers but I, and damn near everyone else I've played with, knows that on Friday when the challenge starts, there will be A LOT more 'mechs carrying missiles than there were Thursday night, before the challenge.

I can observe EVERY weekend the large increase in the number of "nerf LRM" posts on the forum leading me to believe that OTHER PEOPLE who I don't directly know or can speak with ALSO observe the increase in LRM usage, but maybe don't understand that THAT is what they are actually seeing.

Your argument is almost like the Tobacco industry arguing against the link between smoking and cancer, just because not everyone who smokes dies from cancer, doesn't mean that smoking won't kill you.

Maybe you don't see more missile boats, can't imagine how you wouldn't, but I and everyone else I've played with, spoken to, or observed on the forums does.

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Really? ER lasers, PPCs, and Gauss are the same way. The ranges they can hit people are greater than LRM distances. So, if you can hit LRM boats when they can't even target you, does that make your weapons easy mode? hint: yes. Lasers are point and shoot and you are able to rake them across mechs. Easy Mode? @#$% yeah. Gauss? please...you can shoot them from long distances and it's impossible to see/hear where they came from. And the pinpoint damage they do is extreme. Easy mode? yes...on close or stationary mechs at distance.

The difference between firing a LRM vs. just about any other weapon, with LRMs all you need to do is point in the general direction, the "computer guidance" system takes care of the rest, or otherwise known as "easy mode". With pretty much every other weapon, you actually have to be targeting ON the 'mech you want to hit.

Oh and here Sparky, a hint for you that will improve your game play a bit, this what I like to call "spray and pray" method you mention of 'raking lasers across a 'mech', yeah it's easy and also an unskilled implementation of the weapon. Better to focus your fire on a single component, or <gasp> god forbid, TARGET the enemy first, look for the weak spots, AIM AT THOSE and maintain your fire against said location.

That takes skill especially if done while both you and the target are moving.

Unlike missiles, which again, you just keep pointing in the general direction and the computer guidance takes care of the rest.

All of which pales in comparison against the LRM ability for indirect fire, which no other weapon has, making the weapon that much easier and less risky to use.

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BS. LRMs aren't effective if the target disappears, which happens a lot in indirect fire mode. Bad, inexperienced pilots, or ones with bad connections do crap for damage. They fire into mountains/hills, they don't realize the enemy is behind cover, waste missiles like crazy. I can still remember the LRM bug where many first shots went into the dirt. Being a good, effective, efficient LRM pilots is not easy mode and they have to work for it.

It can take a lot to disappear. God forbid you're NARC'd, or TAG'd, or under a UAV, which then makes it pretty much IMPOSSIBLE to "disappear", even with Target Depravation.

As far as the people who are so bad at this game they don't realize that they should watch for the reticule to turn red to confirm they're hitting their target? Well... That's why most missile boats carry well over a 1000 rounds of ammo, isn't it? And it just goes more to the point that missiles are "easy mode" when even those people can still have a dramatic effect on the battlefield.

[charov]

Problem is simple: atm LRM are a spammable noob weapon. In fact, you almost never see a LRM in a high-Elo match.

Make them a bit more hard to use: 1.5/2x damage, 3x cooldown, faster missiles, less ammo/ton, lock only with LOS or constant TAG/NARC. Also, improve AMS and make ECM less "Jesus magic box" and more "human tool" (harder to lock under ECM, block info gathering, etc).

Btw, R&R would be awesome in CW!

[zortesh]

Lrms are not to be feared, narc beacons are.

Check my lrm guide for maps showing cover and lrm avoidance tips.

[Revorn]

red devil2, on 26 November 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Problem is simple: atm LRM are a spammable noob weapon. In fact, you almost never see a LRM in a high-Elo match.

Make them a bit more hard to use: 1.5/2x damage, 3x cooldown, faster missiles, less ammo/ton, lock only with LOS or constant TAG/NARC. Also, improve AMS and make ECM less "Jesus magic box" and more "human tool" (harder to lock under ECM, block info gathering, etc).

Btw, R&R would be awesome in CW!

You may think about why you dont see them in High ELo Games, Its surley not, because the are an easy Noob Way to geht inflating high Results, its because they are simply not usefully and too week for High ELO.

[Mercules]

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Whatever, here we have an example of someone who can't argue away my point so instead argues that I'm somehow arguing in an invalid manner.

Yeah... Whatever...

You are. Your defense against my argument is that I must have some motive to make the claims I am making therefore my claims are invalid. Even if I was a regular user of LRMs, and I am not, that does not invalidate my claims by itself. You must invalidate my claims based upon evidence and a logical argument. Good luck.

Dimento Graven, on 26 November 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Wow! EVERYONE ELSE sucks but you.

Ok fine, so you're either a missile boat pilot, trying desperately to maintain your damn near free ride during the challenges...

OR

You're piloting a light 'mech at 150+ kph, where most missiles tracking you can be made to miss with sudden course changes.

What ever. Your implications that it's "easy" and anyone who has issues with it "must be doing something wrong" or are "unskilled" just makes you seem arrogant, actually arrogantly ignorant.

My original point in this thread still stands:

The value of missiles in challenges should be eliminated, or at the very least, reduced when it comes to challenge scoring.

If missiles weren't easy mode, the population of missile boats would not jump from ~20% to ~80% during challenges.

Go back and read the Dunning Kruger effect. I get hit by LRMs, everyone does. However I don't perceive them as a problem or threat any more than any of the other weapon systems. In fact I can avoid them easier than I can avoid things like Gauss, ACs, and Lasers. I understand how they work and negate any supposed advantage you seems to think they have.


So why do people use LRMs during challenges. I think the challenge just brings out a lot of low skill people.

low skill user + low skill target = good damage
high skill user + low skill target = awesome damage
high skill user + high skill target = some damage
low skill user + high skill target = almost no damage if any

Get a bunch of low skill targets and you can crank damage even if you are not that good yourself. See, it isn't the weapon... it's the stupidity on the other end that makes LRMs good. If you are being hit so much it's a problem, the problem isn't the weapon.... it's you.

[Lightfoot]

No. I think the players have the right to decide how they want to play MWO. LRMs are part of Battle Tech. LRMs in MWO are so weak it's laughable that anyone would complain. If it's a CBill reward problem that is easily fixed in how the CBills are rewarded.

MWO is going to have to improve LRMs and missiles in general to get me to use them. They are too weak in a face to face battle. There is a balance with all things, but MWO's missiles are too weak right now.

ECM, countered by BAP is fine. For too long it was an "I win" button. Now it's a countermeasure. You will agree once the Loki arrives and there are 7 ECM mechs on each team.