148 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Brody319, on 02 December 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

I don't think we will see how good or bad the clans are till CW starts. The last test they did was extremely short.

and russ stated the Clan side had a higher avg elo

[Kavoh]

Hillslam, on 02 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

[/size]
No, it isn't.

Its 64% to 36%

That's roughly 2 to 1.

Not even close, to close.

Nice so you just ignore the rest of my entire post. Its better than it was than in the initial implementation by a LONG shot.

Also, I believe this last test was done pre-IS quirks? So they are even better off.

Edited by Kavoh, 02 December 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[STEF_]

So, Bishop, why, instead of breaking the rules, don't we ask to PGi to be closer the rules?
With engine critical hit, in rule, we have more heat, AND more heat means going slower.
Why, here in mwo, is not speed affected by heat?

Clan XL engine critical hit ---> more heat and less speed

[Barantor]

Stefka Kerensky, on 02 December 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

So, Bishop, why, instead of breaking the rules, don't we ask to PGi to be closer the rules?
With engine critical hit, in rule, we have more heat, AND more heat means going slower.
Why, here in mwo, is not speed affected by heat?

Clan XL engine critical hit ---> more heat and less speed

If we are doing that then there should be a haze affect in the cockpit when you get too hot and the electronics start to flicker to simulate loss of system use?

[STEF_]

Barantor, on 02 December 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

If we are doing that then there should be a haze affect in the cockpit when you get too hot and the electronics start to flicker to simulate loss of system use?

Old mw3 memories

[Water Bear]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 01:49 PM, said:

and russ stated the Clan side had a higher avg elo

I wish I had more hard numbers to crunch on, but I completely understand why they don't release that data to the community. As it is, I feel like the devs put a lot of effort into dancing around community feelings.

Having said that, they thought that the higher clan avg Elo meant that the skewed win percentage was not as bad as it really seemed. But it would be nice to be able to put the statistical thumb screws to it and see if, after Elo prediction, there really was an imbalance.

[Bishop Steiner]

Barantor, on 02 December 2014 - 01:54 PM, said:

If we are doing that then there should be a haze affect in the cockpit when you get too hot and the electronics start to flicker to simulate loss of system use?

yes please

[cSand]

eh..

I don't mind the current Xl engines

risk vs reward works quite nicely

[Artgathan]

Stefka Kerensky, on 02 December 2014 - 01:52 PM, said:

So, Bishop, why, instead of breaking the rules, don't we ask to PGi to be closer the rules?
With engine critical hit, in rule, we have more heat, AND more heat means going slower.
Why, here in mwo, is not speed affected by heat?

Clan XL engine critical hit ---> more heat and less speed

The problem with critical hits is that they're kind of crazy in MW:O. Because of how the mechanics work, a single Gauss Round can generate 3 critical hits (for 15 damage each) if it strikes a section of armor that contains 14.99 points of armor - which means that if engine critical hits were 'working', you could potentially destroyed a mech with a single shot even if they had up to 19.99 points of armor (and you used an AC/20).

I don't know about you, but I would break my keyboard with rage if that happened to me!

[Kavoh]

Hillslam, on 02 December 2014 - 01:47 PM, said:

[/size]
No, it isn't.

Its 64% to 36%

That's roughly 2 to 1.

That's not even close to "close".

Pilot 1:1 wins on a personal level due to ELO <> 1:1 Clan vs IS match wins.

They are two completely different things. Just because people lose in clan mechs isn't due to balance, because aside from the tests its all mixed matches. Its due to ELO. Don't confuse personal suckage with clan gear suckage.

See sig. Rock on.

So quoting again for your edit there. From how you typed that, you are claiming that the better player wins right? So basically, yes its balanced? Unbalanced would be if the better player still lost to the clan mech. Also, no one said clan gear sucked. Ever. You just need to get over your clan phobia. This isn't the first week of the invasion release anymore.

To take that to a different level, there are many suboptimal clan mechs that are many times worse than their IS counterparts. What about the people successful in them? Are they just OP because of the CLAN name tag? Because you are being very broad in your whine of clan gear being OP.

Or how about the test? You know, the one that lasted a short amount of time in which I couldn't even attend because it was done and over with before I even got off work? You know, the one where it was claimed the clans had overall higher ELO yet IS still managed to pull up "36%" w/l against BETTER players with "BETTER" equipment?

All happening before this recent IS quirk pass that brought a lot of IS mechs up in standing by a large margin of course.

[STEF_]

Artgathan, on 02 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The problem with critical hits is that they're kind of crazy in MW:O. Because of how the mechanics work, a single Gauss Round can generate 3 critical hits (for 15 damage each) if it strikes a section of armor that contains 14.99 points of armor - which means that if engine critical hits were 'working', you could potentially destroyed a mech with a single shot even if they had up to 19.99 points of armor (and you used an AC/20).

I don't know about you, but I would break my keyboard with rage if that happened to me!

Yes, I think my keyboard would soffer too
Maybe a balance could do well: let only 1 critical for 1 gauss hit.
Anyway, a system connecting heat with speed should be implemented. Not only about critical hits on engine, but it should be a better way than ghost heat is. (the more you fire, the more heat you generate, the more slow you go, the more in danger you are)

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 02 December 2014 - 02:18 PM.

[Durant Carlyle]

You know in the title of this thread, where you say "lore-breaking" ...

This would break MW:O. Period. Full stop. End of line.

Having an IS 'Mech not be destroyed by side torso destruction when equipped with an XL would be the most grievous departure from the rule set this game is based on yet. In no way should they undertake any steps toward this end.

This one thing would be worse than all of the other departures combined.

*shakes head* You should know better.

[Bishop Steiner]

Durant Carlyle, on 02 December 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

You know in the title of this thread, where you say "lore-breaking" ...

This would break MW:O. Period. Full stop. End of line.

Having an IS 'Mech not be destroyed by side torso destruction when equipped with an XL would be the most grievous departure from the rule set this game is based on yet. In no way should they undertake any steps toward this end.

This one thing would be worse than all of the other departures combined.

*shakes head* You should know better.

closed minds, impede progress.

[FupDup]

Durant Carlyle, on 02 December 2014 - 02:28 PM, said:

You know in the title of this thread, where you say "lore-breaking" ...

This would break MW:O. Period. Full stop. End of line.

Having an IS 'Mech not be destroyed by side torso destruction when equipped with an XL would be the most grievous departure from the rule set this game is based on yet. In no way should they undertake any steps toward this end.

This one thing would be worse than all of the other departures combined.

*shakes head* You should know better.

I'm not saying I agree with Bishop's suggestion (still trying to figure out where I stand), but it would be nice if you provided more specific and stronger reasons against it.

I.E. it might invalidate certain engine types, overly benefit currently XL-friendly mechs, sway the Clans-IS faction balance, etc...those are better examples, and have some merit to them.

[Gyrok]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 01:08 PM, said:

so, keep them inferior to clan mechs, got it.

No, equal footing...

You cannot have the pretty new shiny without it costing you something...Clans did not get new shinies without (over)paying for it either...

[CDLord HHGD]

I would like to know just how far PGI plans to take us. 3050-3060 is pretty ambitious, but beyond is when we really start getting into the (IMO) weird stuff including Light and Compact Engines. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly happy with 3050-3060 (and would actually prefer 3025-3050) but it's not my plan. If PGI does plan to take us to the Jihad and beyond, then things like this become more complex to theorize, unless the (gasp) give us the details. If we won't see those engines, then yes, something to allow a player to make them more unique, globally or via skill or module.

[Brody319]

cdlord, on 02 December 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

I would like to know just how far PGI plans to take us. 3050-3060 is pretty ambitious, but beyond is when we really start getting into the (IMO) weird stuff including Light and Compact Engines. Don't get me wrong, I am perfectly happy with 3050-3060 (and would actually prefer 3025-3050) but it's not my plan. If PGI does plan to take us to the Jihad and beyond, then things like this become more complex to theorize, unless the (gasp) give us the details. If we won't see those engines, then yes, something to allow a player to make them more unique, globally or via skill or module.

It is inevitable that we will get the Super assault/Colossal class mechs then. my body is ready

[Gyrok]

Hillslam, on 02 December 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

YEAH! WHAT HE SAID

Clans are already nerfed down to only winning 2 matches for every 1 IS match. People, clans are ONLY winning twice as many matches. Thats clearly unacceptable. ONLY 2 to 1?!?

Nerf them more? Make it a fair fight? What??? What are you, crazy? We don't want a fair fight.

what do we want? WE WANT CLAN OP! when do we want it? WE WANT IT NOW!

If you weight it by ELO...

The last round of IS vs. Clans, ELO predicted clans to win 70%, at which point they won 64%.

Which means clans lost more than they should have based on ELO prediction.

Now, according to the very same logic used to nerf them, they are now under powered because they win less than they should according to ELO predictions.

If you refute this logical progression, you refute the basis of nerfing the clans to begin with, so, which is correct?

[Durant Carlyle]

If this change were implemented, I would put an XL engine in EVERY SINGLE 'Mech. There would be no reason not to, other than those special 'Mech builds that need every single side torso critical slot. And I don't typically use those anyway.

Slower? Bah.
More heat? Bah.

You're not destroyed. Being slower and having more heat are not really bad penalties compared to being destroyed.

If you didn't know already, I run all of my lights and mediums with XLs. Would I love to have a torso destroyed and still be able to be fighting? HELLZ YEAH! I'd even take the Standard engines out of my ThunderWubs and put in heavier/more weaponry. It would vastly change the way I build my 'Mechs. I wouldn't even think for a second about it.

And that's it right there. This change would be too far-reaching.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

closed minds, impede progress.

Ill trade you none ST Death IS XLs for a 15/15 C ERPPC, and 2.0 DHS for Clan mechs, along with all the quirks ive come up with for clan mechs. Then you can increase the penalties for Clan ST loss from 20% heat to 50% heat loss and lower the ST Shield thing from 50% to 25% for both IS and Clan XLs.