148 replies to this topic

[SaltBeef]

Might be able to un nerf the clans with it. Make the Game more enjoyable for everyone. Throw in some clan auto cannon improvements and it is a done deal.

Edited by SaltBeef, 02 December 2014 - 03:17 PM.

[Walluh]

Opens up build options for the IS, and doesn't make the Clan Mechs feel completely terrible to play.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

So, maybe it's been bandied about...and usually, I am mr TT guy.

That said, I can admit, there is an imbalance in IS XLs vs Clan ones.

So, a possible idea:

Instead of IS XL side torso loss equalling instant death, have it do similar to the clan ones, but with steeper penalties. Have the mech lose 25-40% speed (rough number, could be tweaked) and generate a base 15-25% heat on the heat bar.

The mech is still alive, but badly damaged--- also it makes CASE useful, as you will still lose the torso and take penalties, but by keeping damage from spreading, it has a place again on IS mechs.

Anyhow, just a not fully formed idea I have been tossing about my head this morning, thought I would get some input.

*engaging flame shield in.....3......2.......1......ENGAGED!*

Why should IS be able to gain that benefit, even with steeper penalty, while also customize their engine size?



If we want to give IS even more "better tech" - then it either needs to be locked to the mech (Stock engine size? Wouldn't that cause a ruckus!) or clan locked equipment needs to change.

[Metus regem]

I actually brought up this point with Russ in a PM conversation, and I suggested that the Light engine might be the best option, I also highlighted that the prototypes are 3053, and they could go the route they went with S omnipods, saying that we are getting the advanced prototypes, maybe limit the sizes for the light engine for a while.

[Brody319]

The speed they walk at should be the equivalent to being legged since they are losing a fatal amount of hardware.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 02 December 2014 - 12:09 PM, said:

I believe allowing an IS mech to survive torso destruction would make IS standard engines as worthless as single heatsinks. I think I would rather see some real penalties to Clan mechs that lose a torso.like half movement and massive extra heat.

All depends on the penalties. For example we all know how badly it sucks to lose a leg and in fact losing a leg often means your doing to die soon after. Well if you make the ST penalty a 50% reduction in speed and a 50% reduction in cooling , well those mechs that do well with standard engines like an Atlas are still going to think twice about mounting an XL. I mean 22 kph in an atlas would be beyond painful but at least he could still live and fight a bit longer. I mean even mechs like the Spider would be slowed to under 80 kph which isn't all that hard to hit but STILL he can possible fight just a bit longer even with a ST loss.

Also look at it this way. It is a significant buff to IS mechs and significant buffs generally receive positive feedback so it is a win for IS players. Second it really would allow for PGI to loosen up on the amazingly restrictive customization rules for Clan mechs and maybe even allow PGI to cool down Clan weapons back to reasonable levels which would mean a buff for Clan mechs as well. I mean talk about the positive impressions and good will PGI would earn for doing something like this, I mean wow, it would be mind blowing.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 02 December 2014 - 05:20 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Ultimatum X, on 02 December 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Why should IS be able to gain that benefit, even with steeper penalty, while also customize their engine size?



If we want to give IS even more "better tech" - then it either needs to be locked to the mech (Stock engine size? Wouldn't that cause a ruckus!) or clan locked equipment needs to change.

They would need to loosen up restrictions on Clan mech customization and revert back some of the weapons nerfs as well. The reason Clan mechs suffer so much right now is because they are trying to cripple them down to the level of IS mechs rather than raising IS mechs up to Clan standards.

[Slepnir]

I'm gonna come right out and say it -
NO!
you have the option of durability vs weight savings. I have plenty of IS mechs with standard engines that do just fine. you wanna run an xl you know the risks. there has been to much nerfing in the game already.

The only reason this game had a chance to begin with and the only reason it is still around with all the problems it has had is the loyal fanbase who are dedicated to the universe and it's lore.

Take that away and you might as well go play titanfall.-100% balanced since both sides have exactly the same mechs and weapons.

[KamikazeRat]

Ok, it's like page 5, and I'll admit, TL;DR those 5 pages:

But to OP, I offer a counterproposal. Make engines subject to critical hits. Each engine crit lost/damaged is [x] speed lost and [x] heat level gained. After [x] number of engine crits lost, mech goes boom. With this however, you could go down without actually losing any sections, depending on how many crits would need to be damaged before "engine failure"

Devil's in the details with this one, but I feel like it could be a happy medium.

[Bishop Steiner]

Viktor Drake, on 02 December 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

They would need to loosen up restrictions on Clan mech customization and revert back some of the weapons nerfs as well. The reason Clan mechs suffer so much right now is because they are trying to cripple them down to the level of IS mechs rather than raising IS mechs up to Clan standards.

bingo.

KamikazeRat, on 02 December 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Ok, it's like page 5, and I'll admit, TL;DR those 5 pages:

But to OP, I offer a counterproposal. Make engines subject to critical hits. Each engine crit lost/damaged is [x] speed lost and [x] heat level gained. After [x] number of engine crits lost, mech goes boom. With this however, you could go down without actually losing any sections, depending on how many crits would need to be damaged before "engine failure"

Devil's in the details with this one, but I feel like it could be a happy medium.

would love to. Doubt it would happen, so am looking for realistic alternatives, much like I stopped beating the convergence dead horse (mostly) ages ago

[Artgathan]

KamikazeRat, on 02 December 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

Ok, it's like page 5, and I'll admit, TL;DR those 5 pages:

But to OP, I offer a counterproposal. Make engines subject to critical hits. Each engine crit lost/damaged is [x] speed lost and [x] heat level gained. After [x] number of engine crits lost, mech goes boom. With this however, you could go down without actually losing any sections, depending on how many crits would need to be damaged before "engine failure"

Devil's in the details with this one, but I feel like it could be a happy medium.

See:

Artgathan, on 02 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The problem with critical hits is that they're kind of crazy in MW:O. Because of how the mechanics work, a single Gauss Round can generate 3 critical hits (for 15 damage each) if it strikes a section of armor that contains 14.99 points of armor - which means that if engine critical hits were 'working', you could potentially destroyed a mech with a single shot even if they had up to 19.99 points of armor (and you used an AC/20).

I don't know about you, but I would break my keyboard with rage if that happened to me!

[LordKnightFandragon]

Viktor Drake, on 02 December 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

They would need to loosen up restrictions on Clan mech customization and revert back some of the weapons nerfs as well. The reason Clan mechs suffer so much right now is because they are trying to cripple them down to the level of IS mechs rather than raising IS mechs up to Clan standards.

So in the end, we will end up with mostly identical faction and building limits, similar restrictions? Thus removing any diversity in the clan or IS, with both being mostly the same in terms of limits and restrictions. In the end we will end up with Mechwarrior: Planetside 2 edition, where there is no faction flavor anymore. Everyone wants everyone else's toys in their own faction, and if they cant have it, its OP or UP...it ends up, New look, same great taste across every faction, every mech, every w/e..../yawn....

Weaker XLs is simply a quirk of the IS that the player has to work with. So what if the Clans dont have to also make such decisions, thats part of what makes them different. We really dont need to go the route of PLanetside 2 and slowly blend IS/Clan into the Clammer Sphere..... where both sides have similar tech and everything, with little differences in performance and stats.....I know no player wants to have to give or take, make decisions that might make his/her mech not so amazing in certain situations.....I get no player wants to over come weaknesses in thier faction.....but it makes the game boring when everything is the same.

[Budor]

I would rather see the clan xl get more nerfs to be honest. Double cooldown on all weapons and 50% less torso yaw/pitch speed and angle would be cool in addition to the heat penalty we have.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Budor, on 02 December 2014 - 07:20 PM, said:

I would rather see the clan xl get more nerfs to be honest. Double cooldown on all weapons and 50% less torso yaw/pitch speed and angle would be cool in addition to the heat penalty we have.

Yeah, that could be do able. Make hte mech a sluggish tub to drive and handle with half its engine gone. Makes sense.

[Durant Carlyle]

KamikazeRat, on 02 December 2014 - 05:43 PM, said:

But to OP, I offer a counterproposal. Make engines subject to critical hits. Each engine crit lost/damaged is [x] speed lost and [x] heat level gained. After [x] number of engine crits lost, mech goes boom. With this however, you could go down without actually losing any sections, depending on how many crits would need to be damaged before "engine failure"

This is kind of the way the TT rules work, but there was no speed decrease. Take one engine hit and your heat automatically goes up by five each turn. Take a second hit and your heat goes up by another five points (ten total) each turn. The third engine hit destroys the engine. This is why the I.S. XL is so vulnerable -- it has critical slots in all three torsos versus just the center torso for the standard engine.

But apparently, side torso destruction resulting in I.S. XL engine destruction is no longer acceptable to many, not even "Mr. TT" Bishop Steiner. 30 years of BattleTech tabletop and MechWarrior computer gaming (which had the very same engine hit rules, by the way) gets thrown out the window when it doesn't suit them...

[SweetJackal]

I like the concept Bishop, more so as a dedicated Cappie. But:

From a design perspective if losing a ST wasn't instant death on the IS side then I can see every single build I do use an XL with some very rare exceptions. The point of choice on the IS side is to have side grades and tradeoffs, Clans don't have a tradeoff for their XLs but they also don't have a choice in the matter (not that I think a single clan mech that isn't extinct runs on a STD engine anyways.)

I don't think it has an easy answer.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I vote no to this idea.

It opens another can of worms that will be hard to deal with in the future as the timeline progresses (I think we've seen enough, like the Heat Scale/Ghost Heat system that got added instead of adjusting Heat and Damage values to armor).

So if the goal is to increase survivability / Time to Kill across the board and keep most of what's already in the game (Ghost Heat is expendable, or it at least can get further adjustments); than we'd likely see better results from lowering current Heat Capacity and tweaking Heat Dissipation

I'd personally like to see...

Spoiler

Heat Capacity be set to the scale of 30 (plus 0.1 for each HS, so 10 HS gives +1 and so on). I'd have the scale use adapted Heat Effects, such as the first avoidable shutdown being at a 14 (+HS). So a stock AWS-8Q could handle a heat spike of 16.8 since it has 28 SHS. A Direwolf with 20 DHS in its build would handle a heat spike of 16. The trade off to reduced capacity is having true external DHS and modifications from quirks for different mechs so that alphas can be far more manageable and heat becomes more interesting to deal with.

I'm going to stop typing now but that is basically what I'd like to see a trade of Capacity for more dissipation and reduced high alpha damage.

Then, I'd look at increases to Armor (at least a 25% boost to max values), Structure (I'd start with a similar 25% boost for all eight sections, about ~3.125% for each) and Equipment HP, to get to a point where mechs feel can feel like tough war machines that can take a beating.

I'd follow this with different quirks (such as to specific sections of Armor and Structure and overall Agility) are possibly the best ways to strengthen under-performing IS and Clan mechs / variants (looking forward to what is planned).

But with the new quirk pass, I'd also modify the Mech Trees to be instead of unlocking straight-up bonuses; to be unlocking free Modules that can be added to mechs through the existing module interface (I'd consider adding a few more module slots and at least one more module categories to accommodate as necessary, and I'd leave Consumable slots as is with maybe more consumable variety).

Therefore some mech builds will have to make tougher choices such as do I take Radar Derp or Speed Tweak? Do I want Heat Containment or Cool Run, or do I take a weapon cooldown mod?

So that's what I'd rather try first, before tweaking IS XL Engine death.

[Mister Blastman]

No.

[SweetJackal]

Something that I think should also be noted is that in the TT the XL engine for IS didn't increase vulnerability to the same degree as it does in MWO. Obviously this was due to the random hit location mechanics in the TT forcing damage spread. I am still opposed to the idea of using any form of RNG to induce significant damage spread as random elements are random and not consistent but as it stands right now it is far too easy to have all of your damage hit a single location of your choosing.

I have made several threads about convergence on this issue and how I believe that removing the instant convergence we current have but only for weapons mounted in the side torso, fixing those weapons to converge at their optimum range would go leaps and bounds toward fixing that issue. Yet that is only one in the multitude of opinions we have on how to deal with it.

Though once more I will state, if ST destruction doesn't equal death for an IS XL then due to the IS having a choice between STD and XL engines we will have turned the STD engine obsolete in 90% of cases and turned XL engines into being a tax for IS mechs in the same way that DHS have been. If we need to fix how fragile an IS XL is compared to a Clan XL then we should be looking at why people lose an ST so quickly and making adjustments based on that.

[Belorion]

I am an IS player, but would rather see the Clan retain some sort of edge.