156 replies to this topic

[verybad]

I don't want the Clans nerfed. I wanted 10v12 games with techs limited to sides. However apparently that was to high tech for PGI to figure out.

Clans are supposed to be better 1v1, not as good in large fights as they are in love with the idea of individual capability and don't work well together (eg don't fire at the same targets, etc)

I'd even go for clan tech be buffed if they did things like take away xp and cb for shared kills, etc.

PGI is afraid of trying out anything however. The development of this game has been extremely cowardous IMO.

Maybe I'm wrong and it's just a lack of resources, maybe they simply can't get stuff like that programmed...but the game just keeps coming up short for the last two years. From what it could be (MMO warfare across the inner sphere) to what it is (a 12v12 FPS shooter game with less than a dozen maps.) Production completely dominated by for sale DLC.

Edited by verybad, 04 December 2014 - 10:39 AM.

[Timuroslav]

verybad, on 04 December 2014 - 10:38 AM, said:

I don't want the Clans nerfed. I wanted 10v12 games with techs limited to sides. However apparently that was to high tech for PGI to figure out.

Clans are supposed to be better 1v1, not as good in large fights as they are in love with the idea of individual capability and don't work well together (eg don't fire at the same targets, etc)

This was a Conscious decision PGI made back in May. When PGI asked the forums whether they wanted Clans or Community Warfare first.

The community got what they wanted they got Clans before Community Warfare. Don't believe me? Go to the archives look at the developer blogs.

PGI Also asked whether people wanted to be separated from their Friends who wanted to play Clan mechs in queue.

The community said they didn't want to have separate Queues because they want to play with their friends.

This Locks in PGI decision about how to introduce the Clans, without trashing the public queue. In order to keep people from ranting "Pay to Win, Clans are OP this game is imbalanced."
Again, the Public got what they wanted. In some ways PGI is quite a bit smarter than their audience... by giving people exactly what they want. They force them to see their perspective on things.

If you want to have Clan mechs more powerful, You have to separate Clan mechs and InnerSphere mechs. In all queues. Does the public want to make that decision? No.

Do you want to play with your InnerSphere friends? Then Clan mechs Must be equal to Inner Sphere mechs.
So you see, the decision is really up to you.

Edited by Timuroslav, 04 December 2014 - 11:36 AM.

[Mad Ox]

With Quirks things seem to be much more equal now.

But regardless after playing them both IS and Clan each have there strengths

[JD R]

Because the IS Mechs with the quirks are OP thats why you need to buff the Clans.


Oh **** wrong topic.

The balance is on a good way and we need to wait until the next test happens.

[Project_Mercy]

10v12 is just asking for the game to die. You could just burn your money and time and save everyone the effort.

The majority of people do not want to play weak, or sub-optimum characters in the game. Yes, there are those that get off on feeling unique and special in their class that nobody likes, and there's those that seem to revel in "the challenge" of things, but they're nowhere near a majority (despite being majorly loud on forums).

A lot of people have continue to play and pay for this game under the premise of there being something more than overly-crowded team deathmatch games. That's what CW is for.

Right now, CW is about winning, and winning is SCR, HBR, TBR, DWF.

It doesn't help that most of the best comp teams are, in addition to be the best, also using the best clan mechs, and signing up for clan CW; which means not only are people going to be fighting against people better than them, but they have no way of even fighting on equal footing.

This will result in people starting matches they feel like they can't win, and just quitting out of the match, instantly ejecting. This will result in all those attacks/defense being a success to the clan side, and will make the IS people who DID try even more bitter and eventually angry; and they will quit the game. The solo people will all flock to the Clan side, and then there will be no more CW, and the game will fold.

Factional imbalance is exacerbated by the fact that most people have soft spots for the Timberwolf and Mad Dog and so they're going to plan clan irrespective of how good they are.

Seriously, Blu'ish tinged bewbs were enough to cause massive factional inbalance in WoW. Imagine if the classes were BETTER in addition to blew bewbs, that's what CW will be unless some balance is done. (In this case, Timberwolf is the Night Elf Female of MWO)

The only way CW works out, and causes the game to actually grow and flourish is if both sides have comperable people in comperable mechs doing comperable systems. That's how competitive games work. Not with one side being astoundingly better than the others. That was the '92 olympics where all the pro NBA players played and crushed everyone else. Yes it was amusing for a few games, then it was dumb for everyone who wasn't the USA.

Comperable means comperable down to a 1v1 for the same weight class, rough tonnage, and role.

Edited by Wraeththix Constantine, 04 December 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Clan mechs are about 10 kph faster in their stock engine configurations, but trust me you don't want them with lighter slower engines. Give the Thor 10 tons extra for payload space and it's quite a monster rather than the pathetic no-mech it is in MWO.

Trust me. MWO does not have true Clan mechs either. With no true SSRMs or the slug style ballistics of the I.S. the Clans got their real teeth pulled before you ever saw them. I.S. gets great Quirks to cover for everything else so if you are still complaining you just like to complain.

[reign]

So. I am a Clanner and do not want to see nerfs. (maybe another round of Quirks) but lets take a look at Meta Mechs Competitive mechs listing

From METAMECHS:

Tier 1: These are the mechs that you will see all the time in non-restricted drops. In a perfectly open scenario, like RHoD, these will be pretty much the only mechs present aside from potential tonnage fillers.

Tier 2: These are mechs that you start to see in restricted matches such as MRBC and MCW. They’re not 100% optimal, but they have some advantages or characteristics which make them show up a lot in league

Tier 3: These are good mechs that you shouldn’t really ever see in competition. They’re the mechs that you look at when you think “let’s do something completely crazy”. I’ve also eliminated redundant mechs from the tier list (for example, removing the Gaussapult in favor of the Gauss Jager).

Long Range (700-1100 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C | Dire Wolf DWF-Prime/A | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/B/D

Tier 2: Stalker STK-4N | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Warhawk WHK-Prime/A | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/D | Jagermech JM6-S | Quickdraw QKD-4G | Stalker Misery

Tier 3: Victor Dragon Slayer | Cataphract CTF-3D | Blackjack BJ-3 | Banshee BNC-3M | Hunchback HBK-4J | Dragon DRG-1C| Awesome AWS-9M


Medium Range (300-700 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C | Dire Wolf DWF-Prime/A | Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/B/D
Tier 2: Banshee BNC-3E | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/D | Stalker Misery | Victor Dragon Slayer | Jagermech JM6-DD | Wolverine WVR-6K |Highlander 733C | Cataphract CTF-4X | Cataphract CTF-3D | Stalker STK-4N
Tier 3: Dragon DRG-1N | Orion Protector | Shadowhawk SHD-2H | Nova NVA-Prime/B | Awesome AWS-8Q | Trebuchet TBT-7M

Short Range (0-300 meters)

Tier 1: Timber Wolf TBR-C | Griffin GRF-3M | Stormcrow SCR-Prime/B/D | Mad Dog MDD-Prime/A/B

Tier 2: Victor VTR-9S | Warhawk WHK-B | Dire Wolf DWF-Prime/A | Thunderbolt TDR-5SS | Wolverine WVR-7K | Summoner SMN-Prime/B/D | Trebuchet Loup de Guerre | Quickdraw QKD-4H | Atlas AS7-S | Stalker STK-5M | Atlas AS7-D-DC | Cataphract CTF-3D |Hellbringer HBR-Prime/A/B | Griffin Sparky | Hunchback HBK-4P | Catapult K2

Tier 3: Orion ON1-VA | Shadowhawk Gray Death | Shadowhawk SHD-2K | Centurion CN9-AH | Hunchback HBK-4G | Blackjack Arrow| Nova NVA-Prime/B | Banshee BNC-3M | Thunderbolt TDR-9SE | Highlander HGN-733C | Dragon Flame | Battlemaster BLR-3S | Kintaro KTO-18


Lights

Tier 1: Firestarter FS9-A | Firestarter FS9-H

Tier 2: Jenner Oxide | Raven Huginn | Firestarter Ember | Raven RVN-3L | Jenner JR7-F

Tier 3: Jenner JR7-K | Kit Fox FKX-Prime/D/S | Spider SDR-5D



We see that Besides the Lights, And the Griffin the clan mechs out perform IS mechs in the competitive field in all categories. (except lights where they just fail).

But IS comes in 2nd tier a lot. And may just need a little more nudge to put them on level.[/color]


I personally think the early introduction of Light Fusion Engines (3/4 weight) and a light touch to the quirks will be all it takes to bring it in line.

Just my opinion though.

Edited by reign, 04 December 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Mystere]

NovaFury, on 04 December 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

A lot of people are still bitter about the clan tech coming out as being superior decades ago.

You said it. And also based on this thread, it is very evident that the decades-long anti-Clan Crusade is very much alive.

[Burktross]

I own a Timby, Adder, Nova, and Stormcrows. They're not OP. I do better in my ol' Hunchback or Orion than in any of these newfangled clan mechs.

[Mystere]

00ohDstruct, on 04 December 2014 - 08:09 AM, said:

Most Clan weapons need more "facetime" than IS ones, almost twice as much time in some cases. So factor in that clan mechs usually run very hot and need to cycle or group their fire on top of double burn times for their weapons... more often than not clan mechs HAVE to constantly face their targets to do all of their weapon damage. The rest of the time the weapon use is wasted trying to roll damage and spray painting the enemy (or friendly) mechs, terrain or sky.

But spreadsheet warriors do not take those issues into account. They basically can't because their spreadsheets cannot handle such variables. They are only capable of processing raw numbers and as such base their "conclusions" on those.

[The Boz]

Mystere, on 04 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

But spreadsheet warriors do not take those issues into account. They basically can't because their spreadsheets cannot handle such variables. They are only capable of processing raw numbers and as such base their "conclusions" on those.

1. Bullpuckey.
2. "Beam time" is a number.

[Brody319]

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...79bea279cd3db2b

Stalker with near 100 point alpha and its faster than a Direwolf. must be OP #NerfStalkers

[LordKnightFandragon]

At this point, I think PGI needs to take the Clan weapon table, copy paste IS Values into it and then tweak Clan weapons to they are kinda better in some areas, but mostly close to the same........

like the IS LL? ITs what?

ERLL 9d 8h 675range 1.25 duration 3.25 cool down

take the Clan ERLL and do

CERLL 10d 9h 750range 1.35 duration 3.25 cool down

So that way IS dont need to QQ about thier weapon not having the great range of the Clans while the Clans still retain a slight range bonus over the IS, still get slightly better damage, but are not stuck with a half second or more burn time to deal a negligible amount of extra damage over the IS version.

[Mystere]

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

1. Bullpuckey.
2. "Beam time" is a number.

The Clans have been out for months now and so far no one has stepped up the plate:

Quote

Well, the burden of proof actually lies with the ones claiming something is OP.

So do so and bring in lots of math. I love math. Include the complex equations you used. I love those too. And finally, bring in lots of simulations. I love complex equations presented as visual simulations even more.

Quote

And just to be clear, I want the following included in the analysis:

• chassis analysis, including all variants and IS/Clan configurability
  
• weapons analysis, including damage, rate of fire, duration, burst vs single-shot, weight, slots, ammo, impulse
  
• equipment options analysis, especially those that affect speed, agility, and heat efficiency
  
• dynamic models of how the above interact in 1 vs. 1, 1 vs. N, lance vs. star, and team vs. team encounters

Am I asking to much?

Are you up to the task? Or are your capabilities restricted to tiny and mostly irrelevant bullet points?

[Davers]

The last Clan vs IS test seemed to show the Clans were equal to IS. When we get into CW with a lot more pure Clan/IS with tonnage restrictions we will get a more refined picture of balance. But PGI has to be very careful that changes meant to help balance CW doesn't unbalance the pug queue.

[Manei Domini Krigg]

No reason to nerf Clan-tech.
IS-tech are perfect if you have a skill to build that you need to victory!

[MerryIguana]

Mystere, on 04 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

You said it. And also based on this thread, it is very evident that the decades-long anti-Clan Crusade is very much alive.

You post this in every one of these threads. Its almost like you are on a.... yea.

[Stormfury]

I'd love to see 10 v 12 with clan tech being superior and restricting airstrikes, artillery etc to IS. It should feel more like the clan invasion where clans had superior tech and IS had tactics unheard of by clans.

[Moonlander]

Krigg, on 04 December 2014 - 12:50 PM, said:

No reason to nerf Clan-tech.
IS-tech are perfect if you have a skill to build that you need to victory!

This is funny. Considering you just posted this;

Krigg, on 04 December 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

Atlas - bad mech. It dont have enough of ballistic + energy slots for 100t mech.
Now i take DWF because Atlas cant do like this:

So, basically you need more skill to pull the same numbers as a DWF in your Atlas.

[Project_Mercy]

Moonlander, on 04 December 2014 - 01:28 PM, said:

This is funny. Considering you just posted this;



So, basically you need more skill to pull the same numbers as a DWF in your Atlas.

Screenshots are basically meaningless both ways. I've seen 1200+ damage locust games. That's what most of the tournaments are about, freak games. People like to tout out their freak game screenshots to justify some point either way.

CW though is not about freak games, it's about consistent games, across multiple maps vs multiple opponents with sundry good and terrible plans. Mechs that you can just shoot of the arm and render completely useless *coughdragon1ncough* do not really fit that bill.