156 replies to this topic

[Dawnstealer]

For the 10v12 thing, that's mostly just a lore-thing for me. Everything the Clans did when they invaded was alien, and it started with their 5-mech Stars (instead of a 4-mech Lance).

But in my mind, the Clans should be powerful. There should be some imbalance there, especially favoring the Clans - it's not until the Inner Sphere starts incorporating LosTech (near-clan tech) and working together that the Clans can even be slowed down. If they're evenly matched, and I say this as an Inner Sphere loyalist, I might as well head up to the Periphery, camp out on The Rock, and just hold the Clans there.

[Andi Nagasia]

Stormfury, on 04 December 2014 - 01:21 PM, said:

I'd love to see 10 v 12 with clan tech being superior and restricting airstrikes, artillery etc to IS. It should feel more like the clan invasion where clans had superior tech and IS had tactics unheard of by clans.

with balance how it is right now= IS/Clan, 45/55, (35-40 IS & 60-65, with ELO 10-15% higher in Clan)
so to add in 10vs12(which Russ stated, PGI cant and wont do) will cause, =MECH MATH BELOW=
10 / 12 = 0.84(16% decrease) so 55 x 0.84 = 46%(Clan now Inferior to IS with 2 less mechs),
sorry, i cant support this as not only will it make clan inferior but also rob them of 2 mechs,

no i dont have a problem with Clan being in weaker than IS,
just that with this type of balance weaker Clans mechs will be scarce,
also 2 more mechs means more firepower down range, and imbalance,
as you could have 9Clan vs 9IS - with the last being 1Clan vs 3IS,

Edit- spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 04 December 2014 - 01:54 PM.

[Triordinant]

TamerSA, on 03 December 2014 - 11:52 PM, said:

So now my question again is honestly... why the witch hunt on Clan mechs? If anything, I feel they have been down-balanced from their lore glory to the point where they equal IS mechs instead of surpass them. Which I understand is needed for an online real-time game that is not governed by TT engagement rules.

Here's what's happened in the past year: Clan technological superiority is supposed to be balanced by IS numerical superiority. The moment they decided that Clan vs IS matches were going to be 12 vs 12 instead of 10 vs 12 (or some other ratio), that got thrown out the window and PGI had no choice but to balance Clan 'mechs and IS 'mechs because the goal now is for an all-IS team to have an even chance of defeating an all-Clan team in a 12 vs 12 match.

The last time PGI gave us any numbers, all-Clan teams were beating all-IS teams two thirds of the time so the required 50% standard had not yet been achieved. Hopefully, they'll have another Clan vs IS test now that IS 'mechs have quirks to see if balance has finally been achieved.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

I love how you couldn't come up with an argument without listing all the Clan Lights in order to bolster your numbers.
Corebringer is a hotfixable issue. It brings almost the same firepower as a Thunderwub, but also has an ECM, and has better heat management. Yes. Better heat management. Because when your lasers are lighter and your heatsinks smaller, you can shoot the laser more often. Would you like me to go through the math again?
Ice Ferret is a Cicada, pretty much, and should be played as such. Solid T2, same as the CDA-3M.
Also, "Not being the best at something" doesn't mean "This mech sucks". The Summoner, while not T1, does not suck. One specific Thunderbolt build is better than it. One. One Cataphract too, when boating ballistics. Jagermech doesn't compare because it has several drawbacks in the "can't outboat, can't match speed, can't fly, can't outtank, can't outmaneuver" department. Now, if you wanna define T2 as "this tier sucks", OK, we can do that. 75% of all IS mechs suck. Next point?
Same goes for the Nova. "Waaah, most of my firepower is in low-slung arms!" True. Then again, just one low-slung arm can carry the firepower of an entire IS 50-ton mech, so...

Ho sorry, aren't you yourslef using mech to proove your point?
You know: Clans are OP because of theses 3. So I should not be allowed to use the others? Because "reasons"?

Ice Ferret Cicaca: It's so much like the Cicada are top tiers mech and rulling there class.
Hellbringer: Why are you avoiding there low armor and high profil? Let's not talk about the tremendous heat they create. And about the ECM, sorry but can't each mech now equip something who counter that said ECM. Let's not talk about the Atlas who got his own ECM.
Nova: Again you are avoiding the question of there drawback. One arm fired with all is weapons is enought to raise your heat at +50%. Let's not talk about both of them. That force you to use chain firing, making you more vulnerable while less efficient than the others mech. Let's not talk about the longer time of duration of the said lasers. No that wouldn't be fun at all Quiaff?
Summoner: One build for the Thunderbolt is more efficient, that explain why you see much more Thunderbolt in comparaison to the summoner... Or Jaeggermech boating lasers and AC/20. (Sorry what? Jaeggermech can't boat stuff? My Firebrand would like a word with you.)

But I am not surprised. Especially by you, you have always been against the Clans and for all kind of nerf against them.
I would have more chance speaking to a wall.

The Boz, on 04 December 2014 - 01:00 AM, said:

Most of the other Clams, except for the Lights, are top tier mechs in their respective weight classes, while the rest are middling-to-average (Nova and Summoner, for example).

Top tiers mech? What a joke, none of them except the Big 3 are top tier. All the rest is middling-to-average.

Triordinant, on 04 December 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

Here's what's happened in the past year: Clan technological superiority is supposed to be balanced by IS numerical superiority. The moment they decided that Clan vs IS matches were going to be 12 vs 12 instead of 10 vs 12 (or some other ratio), that got thrown out the window and PGI had no choice but to balance Clan 'mechs and IS 'mechs because the goal now is for an all-IS team to have an even chance of defeating an all-Clan team in a 12 vs 12 match.

The last time PGI gave us any numbers, all-Clan teams were beating all-IS teams two thirds of the time so the required 50% standard had not yet been achieved. Hopefully, they'll have another Clan vs IS test now that IS 'mechs have quirks to see if balance has finally been achieved.

Last time it was a 65% of Victory ratio for the Clans Mech, wich was a ratio wanted. If I remember correctly.
But wasn't it on the teams only? Were people usually use Teamspeak and other stuff like that? (Coordination is a must, especially with Clans Mech.)
Clans Mech appear to be more efficient, but remember the guy who first used them are long time fans and were probably for the majority good to very good players.
Contrary to the "Spheroid", they knew quickly how to use there mech and learned fast there strenght and weakness while the others could not pilot them. And thus had much harder time figuring out how they worked.
Basicly, most of the guys were crying and speaking about something they had no clue about.

If well used, a Clan mech CAN be more efficient than a Spheroid one. But that require much more skill and with the recent quircks of the Spheroid, made it even more harder.


It's the same in every game.

When something new arrived. People able to use it had no trouble fighting it and knew the beast. While the rest had much more trouble and had false experience with them.
Some nerf were needed, yes.
But it was and is the goal of PGI to make the Clans balanced but still with a highter efficienty is well used. They are supposed to be in short the "Hard Mode" of MWO.

Edited by KuroNyra, 04 December 2014 - 03:49 PM.

[Davers]

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Top tiers mech? What a joke, none of them except the Big 3 are top tier. All the rest is middling-to-average.

Just like there are only a few Tier 1 IS mechs? Honestly, the 3 Stormcrow and Timberwolf drop decks are going to be very common. Since half the Tier 1 IS mechs are light mechs, I think the Clans will have a stronger set.

[Brody319]

Davers, on 04 December 2014 - 03:51 PM, said:

Just like there are only a few Tier 1 IS mechs? Honestly, the 3 Stormcrow and Timberwolf drop decks are going to be very common. Since half the Tier 1 IS mechs are light mechs, I think the Clans will have a stronger set.

Yea you will see lots of tier 1 and 2 mechs because people want to win, the trick is making tier 3 and lower mechs worth it to bring sometimes. IS is going to be firestarters, Jaegers/Cataphracts, Shadowhawks, and Atlas D-DCs.

[Davers]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 03:56 PM, said:

Yea you will see lots of tier 1 and 2 mechs because people want to win, the trick is making tier 3 and lower mechs worth it to bring sometimes. IS is going to be firestarters, Jaegers/Cataphracts, Shadowhawks, and Atlas D-DCs.

Of course. There will be plenty of people running their fun/lore builds too, no matter how bad they are. Just look at the 'drop deck' thread. Lots of people planning on running Cicadas and Tbolts. It just seems Clanners are much more bothered by the fact that not all their mechs are Tier 1 than IS players.

[Gyrok]

TwentyOne, on 04 December 2014 - 12:43 AM, said:

For the most part, the clans as a unit are not overpowered. It is just the Scrow/Timber that break the balance of this game in half. Those 2 mechs are so broken they might as well just remove every other heavy and med in the game. At least Dire Wolf is slow, Scrow and Timber have no weakness and truly can beat anything in their class.

Even those are really not "broken" they are just good. None of those mechs are "god mode" or an "I win button". Sure, if you can play a hot build well, you will do some crazy stuff with them, but that does not mean they are flat out better at everything...

Case in point... TDR-5SS > ANY TW under 450m engagement range. Beyond 450m, TW has a chance, under 450m, the TW is flat out toast...

Edited by Gyrok, 04 December 2014 - 04:10 PM.

[Brody319]

Davers, on 04 December 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Of course. There will be plenty of people running their fun/lore builds too, no matter how bad they are. Just look at the 'drop deck' thread. Lots of people planning on running Cicadas and Tbolts. It just seems Clanners are much more bothered by the fact that not all their mechs are Tier 1 than IS players.

Cicada and Tbolts are good though. Never faced a Wubberbolt? Thing is more terrifying than a Twolf has ever been.

We aren't complaining because not all our mechs are tier 1, we are mad because some of them are simply unplayable.
These mechs all need quirks and new omnipods:
Thor, Obsolete, Loki does it better for less tonnage
Nova, runs way to hot in every build way to dependent on energy weapon builds.
Ferret, needs some ST energy slots, loses its arms and most of its weapons way to easily.
Lynx, giant arms with all the weapons in the biggest target on the mech, meaning it loses all its weapons more than anything else.

The Maddog just needs some minor tweaks and a hit box pass.
Adder could use some new omnipods but would be fine if it was just given some minor quirks.
Warhawk is fine
Hellbringer is fine.

[Davers]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

Cicada and Tbolts are good though. Never faced a Wubberbolt? Thing is more terrifying than a Twolf has ever been.

We aren't complaining because not all our mechs are tier 1, we are mad because some of them are simply unplayable.
These mechs all need quirks and new omnipods:
Thor, Obsolete, Loki does it better for less tonnage
Nova, runs way to hot in every build way to dependent on energy weapon builds.
Ferret, needs some ST energy slots, loses its arms and most of its weapons way to easily.
Lynx, giant arms with all the weapons in the biggest target on the mech, meaning it loses all its weapons more than anything else.

The Maddog just needs some minor tweaks and a hit box pass.
Adder could use some new omnipods but would be fine if it was just given some minor quirks.
Warhawk is fine
Hellbringer is fine.

But the IS mechs have the same problems. Look at the Wolverine and Dragons with the vast majority of their firepower in one arm. Some people can make claims that mechs like Vindicators are 'unplayable' too. But people plan on running them in CW. Or they won't and just play what is known to be 'the best'. Why are Clanners so different? Is it because they don't have as many crap mechs that they have to complain about the ones they do have?

You say Thor, I say Quickdraw.
You say Maddog, I say Orion.
You say Nova, I say Vindicator.
You say Ice Ferret, I say Trebuchet.
You say Mist Lynx and Adder, I say any light mech but Firestarters and Jenners.

[Brody319]

Davers, on 04 December 2014 - 04:26 PM, said:

But the IS mechs have the same problems. Look at the Wolverine and Dragons with the vast majority of their firepower in one arm. Some people can make claims that mechs like Vindicators are 'unplayable' too. But people plan on running them in CW. Or they won't and just play what is known to be 'the best'. Why are Clanners so different? Is it because they don't have as many crap mechs that they have to complain about the ones they do have?

You say Thor, I say Quickdraw.
You say Maddog, I say Orion.
You say Nova, I say Vindicator.
You say Ice Ferret, I say Trebuchet.
You say Mist Lynx and Adder, I say any light mech but Firestarters and Jenners.

Ravens are good.
Trebuchet needs to be rescaled.
Also yea, the IS had bad mechs, thats why we would continue to quirk them so they can be more effective, So why is it because the Clanners have the TImberwolf, Direwolf, and Stormcrow, they just shouldn't get any quirks or new omnipods? If you don't want to see nothing but Timberwolves, and stormcrows in CW maybe we should help out the other clan mechs to make them just as viable?

[Davers]

Brody319, on 04 December 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Ravens are good.
Trebuchet needs to be rescaled.
Also yea, the IS had bad mechs, thats why we would continue to quirk them so they can be more effective, So why is it because the Clanners have the TImberwolf, Direwolf, and Stormcrow, they just shouldn't get any quirks or new omnipods? If you don't want to see nothing but Timberwolves, and stormcrows in CW maybe we should help out the other clan mechs to make them just as viable?

I would like to see every mech have a purpose on the battlefield. Unfortunately that will require a completely different MW game. Of course mechs that are not faring well should get tweaked. But I disagree with the general idea that 'Clans are UP'. People say "Other than the Holy Trinity Clan mechs suck and need to be better". But the IS can easily say "Cataphracts and Victors, or Jenner F or whichever Firestarter is good right now, or go home". Plenty of IS mechs suck, and still suck even after being given liberal amounts of quirks, just because the artists who made them designed them that way and no amount of quirks can save them in competitive play, unless that quirk is "invisibility".

[Brody319]

Davers, on 04 December 2014 - 04:41 PM, said:

I would like to see every mech have a purpose on the battlefield. Unfortunately that will require a completely different MW game. Of course mechs that are not faring well should get tweaked. But I disagree with the general idea that 'Clans are UP'. People say "Other than the Holy Trinity Clan mechs suck and need to be better". But the IS can easily say "Cataphracts and Victors, or Jenner F or whichever Firestarter is good right now, or go home". Plenty of IS mechs suck, and still suck even after being given liberal amounts of quirks, just because the artists who made them designed them that way and no amount of quirks can save them in competitive play, unless that quirk is "invisibility".

So why not try to help the bad clans without nerfing the best clans? We didn't nerf the tier 1 Ember and its now tier 2-3 depending on who you ask, after quirks. So why can we not try to help the Adder, Summoner, Lynx, Ferret, and Nova?

[Davers]

Of course they could be helped out, but in the context of Clan XL engines, smaller DHS, and a one ton large laser.

[Brody319]

Davers, on 04 December 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Of course they could be helped out, but in the context of Clan XL engines, smaller DHS, and a one ton large laser.

IS has to catch up. If they didn't bomb themselves stupid they might have had clan level tech.

[Angel of Annihilation]

mad kat, on 04 December 2014 - 01:59 AM, said:

Remember this game is not about how hard you hit (within reason) but where you hit. Clans should never be allowed to ROFL stomp IS mechs as they would in lore otherwise IS would be made redundant immediately. I've said it before and i'll say it again PGI made it plenty clear enough in plenty of time that the clans would have a different flavour and not be the all singing all dancing mechs they're supposed to be. I was shrewd enough to see this and didn't jump on the clan bandwagon like so so many players have and now guess what people are crying about how clans aren't what they were expected to be.

You can't please some people. Now remember my first point, clans have big cockpits most of their weapons are in their arms, you remove a side torso and you take a fith of their heat efficiency off along with a lot of their weapons Not quite so laser vomit are you now Nova. Yeah sure i wouldn't go face to face with a Direwolf in my Awesome 8Q he out guns me, i'm an easy target he can sustain damage (and screen shake) so my aim is thrown off but when i can see that his arms are filled with autocannons my high pinpoint alpha can almost half his firepower in one shot maybe two.

The problem is that it is starting to get out of hand. flavor is one thing but flat out IS weapons dominating is another.

As far as the vaunted Clan Range advantage, well before quirks that might have been true, now though, the is a very, very short range advantage given to the Clans. For example a Thunderbolt 5SS has about a 30-40m shorter range with MPLs than a Clan mech with the same MPLs. That is not a huge difference. Also IS weapons were always much cooler than Clan ones plus lasers had shorter durations, now with quirks, that gap has decreased even more to the point many IS mechs are ridiculously cool while most Clan mechs have to struggle with heat. Clan ACs are a joke when compared to IS ACs. I fire my AC/10 on my Battlemaster and 10 damage goes to where I am pointing at. On my Clan mechs with a UAC/10, 2 damage hits where I want it, 2 more hits off on the ST, next 2 hits an arm and the final two fly off into lala land. Only thing Clan ACs have going for them now is shake which people want nerfed. LRMs....got to love having a single AMS be able to drop a full set of LRM15 missiles one by one as the stream in. IS LRMs, maybe 3-5 get taken out and the rest slam in, all at once and usually all hitting the same location.

Seriously, everything is reversed from Lore. IS mechs are more customizable and run cooler, which ironically was supposed to be a trademark of the Clans.

So yeah we are at the point where alot of Clan mechs need some love and some of the previous Clan weapons nerfs need to be unnerfed.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 04 December 2014 - 05:00 PM.

[Triordinant]

Viktor Drake, on 04 December 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

So yeah we are at the point where alot of Clan mechs need some love and some of the previous Clan weapons nerfs need to be unnerfed.

Let's have at least a month of all-Clan teams fighting all-IS teams and then we'll see if the Clans have been overnerfed or not nerfed enough. You have to test a hypothesis before you can act on it. Assumptions are no good.

[The Boz]

Damn, KuroNyra, your post is *hard* to read!

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Ho sorry, aren't you yourslef using mech to proove your point?
You know: Clans are OP because of theses 3. So I should not be allowed to use the others? Because "reasons"?

Please point out where have I ever used the logic of "TBR is OP, so nerf NVA". I listed a reason why each Clam is where it's at, and I've also pointed out that their Lights suck in the current meta.

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Ice Ferret Cicaca: It's so much like the Cicada are top tiers mech and rulling there class.
Hellbringer: Why are you avoiding there low armor and high profil? Let's not talk about the tremendous heat they create. And about the ECM, sorry but can't each mech now equip something who counter that said ECM. Let's not talk about the Atlas who got his own ECM.
Nova: Again you are avoiding the question of there drawback. One arm fired with all is weapons is enought to raise your heat at +50%. Let's not talk about both of them. That force you to use chain firing, making you more vulnerable while less efficient than the others mech. Let's not talk about the longer time of duration of the said lasers. No that wouldn't be fun at all Quiaff?
Summoner: One build for the Thunderbolt is more efficient, that explain why you see much more Thunderbolt in comparaison to the summoner... Or Jaeggermech boating lasers and AC/20. (Sorry what? Jaeggermech can't boat stuff? My Firebrand would like a word with you.)

Cicada is good.
Hellbringer doesn't have low armor. High profile? OK, I'll give you that. Welcome to the Inner Sphere, where high profiles are where it's at. Yes, the Centurion is only fifty tons. Working as intended^TM.
Nova: ...I don't get it. "I carry an entire 50 ton IS mech's worth of lasers in each arm, so heat is very difficult to manage, and that is a significant drawback." Drawback compared to what!? A mech that carries 2x the firepower is NOT uniquely penalized by 2x the heat! Now, if you had said that the speed is too low or that their profile is too wide or something, you might have had a point... Again, welcome to the Inner Sphere. Yes, the Hunchback is not expected to outrun the Vuctor.
Summoner: Again with the "Isn't T1, so it sucks" argument. A Jagermech outboating a Summoner sacrifices pretty much everything to do that. Reading comprehension, dude.

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

But I am not surprised. Especially by you, you have always been against the Clans and for all kind of nerf against them.
I would have more chance speaking to a wall.

You'd have more chance speaking with actual arguments, instead of "no, they're not OP".

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Top tiers mech? What a joke, none of them except the Big 3 are top tier. All the rest is middling-to-average.

And the Inner Sphere is comprised solely of All Star Top Tier Hard Carry Ultimate Killpwnerers, right?

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

Last time it was a 65% of Victory ratio for the Clans Mech, wich was a ratio wanted. If I remember correctly.

And yet another Clam pilot that likes the "I win because I'm better" ego-stroke of failing to understand the mechanics in question.

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

But wasn't it on the teams only? Were people usually use Teamspeak and other stuff like that? (Coordination is a must, especially with Clans Mech.)

Last test was unannounced 3 hour solo queue only.

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

If well used, a Clan mech CAN be more efficient than a Spheroid one. But that require much more skill and with the recent quircks of the Spheroid, made it even more harder.

1. This is bullpuckey.
2. Higher skill ceilings with near-linear rewards is not balanced compared to lower skill ceiling.

KuroNyra, on 04 December 2014 - 03:42 PM, said:

But it was and is the goal of PGI to make the Clans balanced but still with a highter efficienty is well used. They are supposed to be in short the "Hard Mode" of MWO.

What? Why should they be "highter efficienty" at all? Is piloting the Clam supposed to be Hard Mode, or fighting it? And where does it say this?

[kapusta11]

Clan lasers basically have all the pros without any real cons. 4xCERML = 3xISLL but weight 4 tons instead of 15(!) how the hell is that balanced?

[Kavoh]

Now, I think IS is getting buffed up quite a bit and is on average on par if not better than its clan counterparts (aside from the big 3 of course), however I think this argument of "oh yea? the X sucks? Well so does X IS mech!" is getting a but stupid. So a few IS mechs are sub par? Congrats, you have tons to choose from. So what about clans? They aren't blessed with a ton of mechs yet, so they are all forced into the DW/TW/SC while IS has many choices.

Don't get me wrong, they aren't DOA. I play my Hellbringer (despite getting sick of taking FCT hits from behind) and other non DW/TW/SC clan mechs constantly. I love em. But I play them and am stubborn about it because I love the mechs themselves. So yea it is kind of obnoxious to see people pinning the mad dog, hellbringer, nova, X non meta clan mech as OP and in need of nerfing.

TLDR. Stop calling for global clan nerfs. Find the source problem and fix that. Stop being so damn whiny. Leave my Hellbringer and my Africa sized CT alone.

Edited by Kavoh, 05 December 2014 - 12:07 AM.