99 replies to this topic

[ZenFool]

Talono, on 14 December 2014 - 11:31 PM, said:

Some muddy ground at the defenders side of the gates would be a solution, cutting movement by 2/3, or at least 1/2.

Two pages of "simple" solutions and the best we can come up with is a moat. Not dismissing the idea, just think its funny...

[Vassago Rain]

ZenFool, on 14 December 2014 - 11:37 PM, said:

Two pages of "simple" solutions and the best we can come up with is a moat. Not dismissing the idea, just think its funny...

I'm just amazed that this whole thing made it past the design phase.

[Skull Monkey]

Khobai, on 14 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Likewise the cannon generator should slowly repair. That way the attackers have to kill the cannon all at once and cant just send suicide wave after suicide wave to take it out.

Agree.

Khobai, on 14 December 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

IMO gate generators should repair and close again after a certain number of minutes

Right now destroying gates just feels like a formality and the gates dont actually do anything. when has an attacker ever failed to open a gate? the gates are pointless and do nothing. they might as well not exist.

If the gate generators slowly repaired and closed again every few minutes it would at least slow down the attackers.

They do seem like a formality, but they're there to give the defenders a chance to soften up the attackers as they're shooting the generators.

[Bregor Edain]

Vasili, on 14 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

4 or 5 arty strikes on omega apparently end a match. that's a problem when you consider most drops are going to consist of 48 of them.

We tried using strikes on an empty map with 0 defenders. Strikes do not hurt the Omega generator.

[EvilCow]

Simply a stronger generator will not do.

The solution could be to have 3 generators instead of one, located in different places. This way a single zerg rush is unlikely to take all them down.

[ShadowSpirit]

Zerg rush isn't a problem. We defended against it in most cases 3 to 1 I'd say.

- Burst damage mechs (SRM boats melt lights like a hot knife through butter)
- Artillery strikes
- Go for one leg as they approach and move to next target to slow the zerg
- Bring fast mechs that can keep up with them from point of entrance
- Call in drop ships / eject


.... the list probably can go on.

[EvilCow]

ShadowSpirit, on 15 December 2014 - 01:05 AM, said:

Zerg rush isn't a problem. We defended against it in most cases 3 to 1 I'd say.

- Burst damage mechs (SRM boats melt lights like a hot knife through butter)
- Artillery strikes
- Go for one leg as they approach and move to next target to slow the zerg
- Bring fast mechs that can keep up with them from point of entrance
- Call in drop ships / eject


.... the list probably can go on.

Right, there are ways, but a game revolving just around stopping the zergs would become stale very soon.

[Cab]

What if a zerg rush happens in the 3rd or 4th wave? It s also possible to do that. You hardly will succeed as a defender against the "delayed" rushes. In particular PUGs (which are less coordinated due to their nature) will have a tough time countering a rush.

[kapusta11]

Cab, on 15 December 2014 - 01:27 AM, said:

What if a zerg rush happens in the 3rd or 4th wave? It s also possible to do that. You hardly will succeed as a defender against the "delayed" rushes. In particular PUGs (which are less coordinated due to their nature) will have a tough time countering a rush.

Guess what, CW is not for PUGs.

[Joey Tankblaster]

The whole idea of a generator on top of the wall, which can be shot from a ramp outside the base is just bad.

Redesign it.

1. Give hp to the gates (10,000 or more)
2. Remove the ramp outside the base (who would build a base like that ?)
3. increase the height of the gates to exclude that mechs can jump over it
4. Add catwalks to the base behind the gates so that mechs can actually defend them, while they are under attack
5. Put each generator behind the gate, hidden with very little HPs (100-200)

What is the basic idea? At the moment, destroying the door is quite easy but in a real siege that would be the most difficult task. While the gate is under attack the attacking force comes under brutal long range fire + LRMs from the defenders and it takes several minutes to take out the gate and pin down the defenders. Once it is open, ECM lights might sneak in and open the other gates by destroying the generators hidden inside the base. This approach would exclude Zerg rush, crow/timber rush and add another component to the game.

Balancing the generator of the canon is another issue ...

[Kmieciu]

The only thing that needs fixing is FPS and hit detection. Once you'll be able to reliably hit light mechs, the rushes will be a thing of the past.

[Grantham Besat]

Gates should be tougher because at this time they do nothing. The issue is that if we juat buff the gates then sulfer dosnt change much. That map channels attackers and defenders into paths that are totally isolated. They need to open up the useable area on both maps to give the attackers options but they need to do so in a way that doesn't turn it into rock paper scissors for the defenders as they pick which gate to cover with most of their mechs.

Edited by Grantham Besat, 15 December 2014 - 02:02 AM.

[Kmieciu]

Grantham Besat, on 15 December 2014 - 01:57 AM, said:

Gates should be tougher because at this time they do nothing. The issue is that if we juat buff the gates then sulfer dosnt change much. That map channels attackers and defenders into paths that are totally isolated. They need to open up the useable area on both maps to give the attackers options but they need to do so in a way that doesn't turn it into rock paper scissors for the defenders as they pick which gate to cover with most of their mechs.

On a related note: there should be numerous elevated positions for the defenders behind the gates, to encourage fighting over the gates. Right now, the gates are so easy to open there is truly no incentive to defend them at all.
Why would you want to defend them, when you've got 4+ turrets at omega and if you die a dropship will come and shoot the attackers?

[Telmasa]

Like I said in another thread, I don't think a gate has ever been a good way to stop a Mech.

Gates are intended to stop foot infantry and ground vehicles. Anything taller than a building, with the ability to mount jump jets, is clearly not going to care about a lousy wall for long.

I say focus on tweaking the terrain around the gates a bit, at most, but otherwise leave it alone.

[Kiblams]

There is a very simple way in my eyes to stop the rush; you just add in another step before the gun can be destroyed:

• Blow 2 shield generators on opposite sides of the map (left and right of gun)
  
• Once those are down the shield on the gun drops and it can be destroyed

That would stop the light rushes and shouldn't be too difficult to add onto the existing maps.

[Y2kHippy]

I have been able to run a old Kintaro 18 streaker as my first drop when defending and it is cleaning up the Zerg with good com's and team work of heavys. The rush does not always work, and does not always come in the first wave. I have seen the light rush come in the second, third and last waves.

[Cab]

kapusta11, on 15 December 2014 - 01:30 AM, said:

Guess what, CW is not for PUGs.

Even for premades it will be very hard to impossible to counter a non-frist wave rush.

The thing is: it's not about the light rush seen as a tactic. It's the HSR issue allowing this tactic to be "OP".

Edited by Cab, 15 December 2014 - 03:31 AM.

[Ascaloth]

I think the problem with Zerg rushing is because the defending team has a great overall combat advantage against the attackers:

- It's easier to group up in a defensive deathwall against heavier mechs invading. If a defender falls, another one will be spawned and regrouped in a few seconds.
- The attacking force have to cross a large portion of the terrain, that means if someone lose its first mech, the second one isn't readily available at the conflict point. The defending mechs drops right where they are needed most, quickly.
- Defenders have lot's of help: turrets and dropships firing. I know attacking force's dropships fire aswell, but the defending dropships are right there over attackers heads when the base is invaded, while attackers's dropships fly very far away shooting no one.

So, if you are attacking, you CAN'T win by defeating all the defending mechs then going for the cannon. It's nearly impossible! Also, it's very, very hard to push with slow mechs (no matter how well they are armed and coordinated) because of defending drop speed and position. Probable solutions:

- Decrease attackers mech drop time and increase defending dropship time by a good marging.
- Make defenders spawn scattered through their base, not just right behind the cannon (not needed if spawn time increases, through).
- Give more combat tools to attackers, like vtols flying through defending base to attack mechs from time to time, randomly given airstrikes, some way to deploy or activating beacons to drop attacking mechs inside the base, AI controlled armored vehicles/elementals dropping from times to times...

[kapusta11]

Cab, on 15 December 2014 - 03:30 AM, said:

Even for premades it will be very hard to impossible to counter a non-frist wave rush.

The thing is: it's not about the light rush seen as a tactic. It's the HSR issue allowing this tactic to be "OP".

Then ask for HSR improvements, all I see right now is buff cannon HP threads.

[Helsbane]

Take a page from Alterac Valley in WoW. Add multiple objectives within the base area that need to be destroyed before the generator is exposed and can be damaged -or- each lowers the health of the generator by X amount. It would eliminate the single target to win the match and promote combat, which oddly enough is why we're all here....

Edited by Helsbane, 15 December 2014 - 04:28 AM.