20517 replies to this topic

[Odanan]

I'm presenting my case with educated and lore-based arguments (not passionately).

When choosing my "next looking forward mech", I always go first for the more common ones in the timeline.

Viper (or Dragonfly) is one of the most common medium mechs of the Clans in this timeline. It is the most deployed Ghost Bear medium mech and one of the 16 original invading omnimechs. Is it too much if I ask for it?

PS: I'm also asking for the Fire Moth, and for the same reasons.

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 23 March 2016 - 05:27 AM, said:

If it's not completely extinct, I see no problem.
You know, some of these "Comstar" mechs added in MWO (King Crab, Black Knight, Highlander, Crab, Kintaro...) are not exactly common in 3050.

About the Nightstar, it's not been produced for more than 200 years, so I don't know if it fits the extinct or extremely rare category.

BTW, the Nightstar looks like a Marauder with huge arms. I kind of like it.

The Nightstar fits in the "rare" category.
http://www.masteruni...Id=18&EraId=256

It doesn't say how many Comstar has but they have some for sure.

With the battle of Tuk now established as having taken place, I think CS mechs are on the table.

Edited by TheArisen, 23 March 2016 - 11:45 AM.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 23 March 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I'm presenting my case with educated and lore-based arguments (not passionately).

When choosing my "next looking forward mech", I always go first for the more common ones in the timeline.

Viper (or Dragonfly) is one of the most common medium mechs of the Clans in this timeline. It is the most deployed Ghost Bear medium mech and one of the 16 original invading omnimechs. Is it too much if I ask for it?

PS: I'm also asking for the Fire Moth, and for the same reasons.

Not at all, I just saw what read to me as a double standard when you mentioned that the Nightstar would be acceptable, despite being in a similar position to the Coyotl. My stance is simply the strongest mechs for each weight, of given types (Omni's / Battlemechs) with having at least one variant that was in production by 3053, once the strongest options for each type and weight are in, then anything else I see is fair game.

It is very easy to say "No one uses a 70t mech", when the options provided are not the strongest option for a 70t mech. Prime example Summoner Vs. Nova Cat, which one is the better chassis? If I look at the TRO's, I'm inclined to say Nova Cat, a little slower, way less jumpy, but more varied load-outs with more than just a hand full of weapons. The Summoner to me comes across as a great duelist, not a great protracted battle vehicle, the Nova Cat reads as the opposite, fantastic protracted battle unit, less of a duelist.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 23 March 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Not at all, I just saw what read to me as a double standard when you mentioned that the Nightstar would be acceptable, despite being in a similar position to the Coyotl. My stance is simply the strongest mechs for each weight, of given types (Omni's / Battlemechs) with having at least one variant that was in production by 3053, once the strongest options for each type and weight are in, then anything else I see is fair game.

I'm sad you saw that as a double standard, because I have a reputation to uphold.

I don't want the Viper because I want to pilot one. Honestly, I don't like how the Clans are in MWO (too hot, terrible autocannons - and I'm an autocannon guy).

Imagine a Mechwarrior game (~3049) that would have only 4 IS assault mechs. What would you choose? Well, I would choose the Atlas, the Stalker, the Awesome and [any other]. Atlas is a freaking terrifying iconic mech and Stalker and Awesome are the most common assault mechs in the universe, both full of variants. For the same reason, if I was to choose 4 Clan medium mechs (for ~3049), I would pick the Invasion mechs first.

My statement for the Nightstar and the Coyotl is exactly the same. Both are extremely rare (Coyotl probably even more rare). But while we have already 10 IS assault mechs (with an almost certain Longbow as the 11th), we have only 4 Clan medium mechs.

Edited by Odanan, 23 March 2016 - 12:28 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 23 March 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

I'm presenting my case with educated and lore-based arguments (not passionately).

When choosing my "next looking forward mech", I always go first for the more common ones in the timeline.

Viper (or Dragonfly) is one of the most common medium mechs of the Clans in this timeline. It is the most deployed Ghost Bear medium mech and one of the 16 original invading omnimechs. Is it too much if I ask for it?

PS: I'm also asking for the Fire Moth, and for the same reasons.

Actually the Clans still have Brian Caches, with old and obsolete equipment that they dole out as needed for second line forces.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brian_Cache

And most of those caches were relatively untouched until the Refusal War rebuilding (Falcons and Wolves) and the during the War of Reaving.

So Metus is Right, since the Coyotls weren't seeing much active combat, as inter-clan warfare was seldom wasteful, the majority built would likely still exist in mothballs.

Being a first generation Omni though, they would be both high maintenance, and generally speaking Omnis were not assigned to second line forces, even outdated ones, which is why they would not be prominent in the Toumans.

While they were produced for 89 years, they have not been in production for nearly a century, and spare parts were scarce even at the end of their production. Add to it that the Coyotes are not part of the Invasion Force, And the Diamond Sharks (Sea Foxes) are an Auxiliary, and the likelihood of Coyotl being in a force in the Inner Sphere theater, is sadly, next to nil. With Timeline advance to Operation Bulldog/Scorpion, one might see them come out in limited numbers as the Wolves use whatever they have in the Brian Caches.

So in this, Odanan is also right.

They do exist. But the likelihood of functional ones being in the IS are slim to none.

So you're both right and both wrong, and the end result is that it probably is not the best candidate to hang your heart on.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 March 2016 - 12:20 PM.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 23 March 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

I'm sad you saw that as a double standard, because I have a reputation to uphold.

I don't want the Viper because I want to pilot one. Honestly, I don't like how the Clans are in MWO (too hot, terrible autocannons - and I'm an autocannon guy).

Imagine a Mechwarrior game (~3049) that would have only 4 IS assault mechs. What would you choose? Well, I would choose the Atlas, the Stalker, the Awesome and [any other]. Atlas is a freaking terrifying iconic mech and Stalker and Awesome are the most common assault mechs in the universe, both full of variants. For the same reason, if I was to choose 4 Clan medium mechs (for ~3049), I would pick the Invasion mechs first.

My statement for the Nightstar and the Coyotl is exactly the same. Both are extremely rare (Coyotl probably more even more rare). But while we have already 10 IS assault mechs (with an almost certain Longbow as the 11th), we have only 4 Clan medium mechs.

If I had to pick four IS assault mechs...

Atlas, this was never in doubt
Awesome, one of the meanest Assault mechs of it's day
Battlemaster, also iconic
Longbow, not a mech to be ignored.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Actually the Clans still have Brian Caches, with old and obsolete equipment that they dole out as needed for second line forces.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brian_Cache

And most of those caches were relatively untouched until the Refusal War rebuilding (Falcons and Wolves) and the during the War of Reaving.

So Metus is Right, since the Coyotls weren't seeing much active combat, as inter-clan warfare was seldom wasteful, the majority built would likely still exist in mothballs.

Being a first generation Omni though, they would be both high maintenance, and generally speaking Omnis were not assigned to second line forces, even outdated ones, which is why they would not be prominent in the Toumans.

While they were produced for 89 years, they have not been in production for nearly a century, and spare parts were scarce even at the end of their production. Add to it that the Coyotes are not part of the Invasion Force, And the Diamond Sharks (Sea Foxes) are an Auxiliary, and the likelihood of Coyotl being in a force in the Inner Sphere theater, is sadly, next to nil. With Timeline advance to Operation Bulldog/Scorpion, one might see them come out in limited numbers as the Wolves use whatever they have in the Brian Caches.

So in this, Odanan is also right.

They do exist. But the likelihood of functional ones being in the IS are slim to none.

So you're both right and both wrong, and the end result is that it probably is not the best candidate to hang your heart on.

While I love the Coyotl since I discovered them in Golden Century supplement, and they have become a regular addition to my Clan Super Nova in TT, it is not something I fully expect to see anytime soon. I would rather the Pouncer, fallowed by the Dragonfly, then perhaps the Coyotl, so long as the Phantom is not the first Clan 40t Omni, I will be happy.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

So you're both right and both wrong, and the end result is that it probably is not the best candidate to hang your heart on.

Bishop Steiner putting down fires? We've come a long way...

Metus regem, on 23 March 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Atlas, this was never in doubt
Awesome, one of the meanest Assault mechs of it's day
Battlemaster, also iconic
Longbow, not a mech to be ignored.

Great list! Yes, Battlemaster. Forgot that one.

Metus regem, on 23 March 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

I would rather the Pouncer, fallowed by the Dragonfly, then perhaps the Coyotl, so long as the Phantom is not the first Clan 40t Omni, I will be happy.

Viper as the 2nd next medium omnimech? I could live with that.

[Ovion]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Actually the Clans still have Brian Caches, with old and obsolete equipment that they dole out as needed for second line forces.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brian_Cache

These have always bothered me.

I keep thinking it's just mispelt Brain Cache.
WHY BRIAN, WHY!?

Could of Called them Castle Camerons and Castle Caches, and that has the added bonus of alliterating.

[Odanan]

Ah, Brian Caches. One more excuse to add new (but older) mech designs to Battletech.

[Metus regem]

Odana,

If I were to expand my list downward into the lower weight brackets, to if I had to pick just four from each weight class prior to 3049 for the IS, I think it would look something like this:

Heavy:
Maruader
Warhammer
Archer
Riflemen

Medium:
Shadow Hawk
Centurion
Hunchback
Phoenix Hawk

Light:
Stinger
Locust
Urbanmech
Jenner

The one I had the hardest time narrowing down was the medium class, so many good options in these from the pre-clan invasion....

Edited by Metus regem, 23 March 2016 - 12:47 PM.

[Odanan]

Ovion, on 23 March 2016 - 12:37 PM, said:

These have always bothered me.

I keep thinking it's just mispelt Brain Cache.
WHY BRIAN, WHY!?

Could of Called them Castle Camerons and Castle Caches, and that has the added bonus of alliterating.

Because Brian is the Messiah.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 23 March 2016 - 12:45 PM, said:

Odana,

If I were to expand my list downward into the lower weight brackets, to if I had to pick just four from each weight class prior to 3049 for the IS, I think it would look something like this:

Heavy:
Maruader
Warhammer
Archer
Riflemen

Medium:
Shadow Hawk
Centurion
Hunchback
Phoenix Hawk

Light:
Stinger
Locust
Urbanmech
Jenner

The one I had the hardest time narrowing down was the medium class, so many good options in these from the pre-clan invasion....

Choosing just 4 mechs for each class is cruelty, specially if you add the Unseens to the mix (they are mostly auto-include).

Here is mine:

Assault:

• Atlas = ballistics + energy + missiles
  
• Stalker = missiles + energy
  
• Battlemaster (or Victor, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy + missiles
  
• Awesome = missiles + energy

Heavy:

• Marauder (or Orion, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy + missiles
  
• Warhammer (or JagerMech, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy + missiles
  
• Archer (or Catapult, if no Unseen allowed) = missiles + energy
  
• Crusader (or Cataphract, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy + missiles

Medium:

• Shadow Hawk (or Hunchback, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy + missiles
  
• Griffin (or Trebuchet, if no Unseen allowed) = missiles + energy
  
• Phoenix Hawk (or Blackjack, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy
  
• Vulcan = ballistics + energy

Light:

• Firestarter = ballistics + energy
  
• Raven = missiles + energy
  
• Wasp (or Jenner, if no Unseen allowed) = missiles + energy
  
• Locust (or Flea, if no Unseen allowed) = ballistics + energy

Looking at the list of mechs in MWO, I think PGI narrowed down pretty much the best chassis (with one or two exceptions).

Edited by Odanan, 23 March 2016 - 01:19 PM.

[Ovion]

Odanan, on 23 March 2016 - 12:48 PM, said:

Because Brian is the Messiah.

He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.

[CK16]

Idk my ideal wave 4 would be

- Firemoth
- Viper
- Nightgyr
- Turkina
BONUS - Kingfisher (for if you bought all of wave 3)

INSERT 4 Battlemech singles 1 of those being well we know . Time jump done during this as well, maybe new weapons that affects wave 5.
Wave 5 IMO
- Cougar
- Pouncer
- Nova Cat
- Blood Asp (with swapped weapons or new ones once Russ decides what they want to do)

[dervishx5]

Imperius, on 23 March 2016 - 10:38 AM, said:

Oh there are many double standards that are in play in these forums. Basically it boils down to this there is about 12 of us that have our agendas (secret or not) that wont support other peoples mechs until our mechs make it in. No amount or arguing or talking will change each others minds. So it's best to just hold your ground, post about the mech you want, and go from there.

[CK16]

Or you know, Direwolf with Timerwolf head and ears, and happy prance at 68 KPH xD

[Odanan]

CK16, on 23 March 2016 - 01:15 PM, said:

Idk my ideal wave 4 would be

- Firemoth
- Viper
- Nightgyr
- Turkina
BONUS - Kingfisher (for if you bought all of wave 3)

INSERT 4 Battlemech singles 1 of those being well we know . Time jump done during this as well, maybe new weapons that affects wave 5.
Wave 5 IMO
- Cougar
- Pouncer
- Nova Cat
- Blood Asp (with swapped weapons or new ones once Russ decides what they want to do)

Blood Asp (AK Meta Mech) will be brutal, and Nova Cat has a lot of fans in the new generation, but I would put a Wave between your 4 and 5, just for PGI to have time to add the proper new weapons for the mechs on the 3059+.

So:

Wave 4:
- Fire Moth
- Viper
- Night Gyr
- Kingfisher

Wave 5:
- Fire Falcon
- Pouncer or Black Lanner or Huntsman
- Linebacker
- Turkina

[time jump, new tech]

Wave 6:
- Hellion (Cougar is simply too slow)
- Mongrel or Coyotl
- Nova Cat
- Blood Asp

Edited by Odanan, 23 March 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Virlutris]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 March 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

Actually the Clans still have Brian Caches, with old and obsolete equipment that they dole out as needed for second line forces.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brian_Cache

And most of those caches were relatively untouched until the Refusal War rebuilding (Falcons and Wolves) and the during the War of Reaving.

So Metus is Right, since the Coyotls weren't seeing much active combat, as inter-clan warfare was seldom wasteful, the majority built would likely still exist in mothballs.

Being a first generation Omni though, they would be both high maintenance, and generally speaking Omnis were not assigned to second line forces, even outdated ones, which is why they would not be prominent in the Toumans.

While they were produced for 89 years, they have not been in production for nearly a century, and spare parts were scarce even at the end of their production. Add to it that the Coyotes are not part of the Invasion Force, And the Diamond Sharks (Sea Foxes) are an Auxiliary, and the likelihood of Coyotl being in a force in the Inner Sphere theater, is sadly, next to nil. With Timeline advance to Operation Bulldog/Scorpion, one might see them come out in limited numbers as the Wolves use whatever they have in the Brian Caches.

So in this, Odanan is also right.

They do exist. But the likelihood of functional ones being in the IS are slim to none.

So you're both right and both wrong, and the end result is that it probably is not the best candidate to hang your heart on.

Quoting from Sarna:

"During the Clans' Golden Century and the years prior to Operation REVIVAL, the Brian Caches were further enlarged when "obsolete" Clan equipment were placed into mothballs after newer-generation equipment became available."

It seems like one of the important points of differencing here has been "whether it shows up in a TRO."

Even KTOs, for example, show up in TROs. Barely, but there were some in ComStar's secret stash that made its way to Kurita, and a tiny little fractional amount in Davion's muster.

Barely there vs. Not there becomes an interesting point of difference.

Does Comguard itself have a TRO listing? (showing my ignorance here)

If it did, would Secret Stash mechs in that listing make it into the ComGuard TRO, or would they be unlisted because they're not "active?"

That's relevant (I think) because the Clanners' Brian Caches would seem to operate similarly.

Would the mechs in a given Clan's Brian Cache show up in a TRO, or not?

If they do, then a lack of Coyotls in anyone's TRO, much less that of an invading Clan would seem to rule it out.

If those Caches and Stashes don't show up in TROs of any kind, because they show only "activated" equipment, but instead serve as ready-to-hand plot devices for the authors and TT GMs, then it would seem like almost anything could be in there, inluding "obsolete" tech that was replaced when next gen mechs became available.

At that point, it's just a matter of how PGI wants to play it. If it's only a matter of whether it's got timeline tech, and they want to bend it, it could happen.

If they're requiring something from the chassis to be in some TRO, somewhere, around now-ish, with current in-game tech, then it's gonna be a no-go.

Some mechs are incredibly obscure, but hanging on by a fingernail in the forgotten corners of a House military muster somewhere (looking at you, Kintaro).

If the Coyotl's in a TRO somewhere, then it's a question of whether an invading Clan would have used it. If it's not, it's much harder for me to see being added.

Unless, that is, we hand-wave it through the plot portal by way of the Brian Cache alone. We haven't had to though, because they've all (to my knowledge) been listed in a TRO thus far, to some miniscule degree.

TL;DR: Is Coyotl in anybody's TRO, for any reason, around now-ish? Seems to have been the case for every other mech we've had in game thus far. If TROs include caches, and there's no Coyotl, then no go. If they don't, anything could go (Coyotl included).

Eek, wall o' text 0.o

[CK16]

Cougar might be slow but thing brings some nasty fire power for a light mech, I mean we are talking a jumping platform capable of a GR and a few lasers as back up, more fire power then a Shadowcat, sure it's not blinding fast but I don't think it would be bad, very much a glass cannon kinda but I mean, it's a light mech that could tonnage wise mount a UAC20 comfortably (need to verify pod space here though). It couldn't scout but damn could t harass!