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Ultimate Mech Discussion Thread

Started by Odanan, Jun 27 2012 10:48 AM
BattleMech Balance

20517 replies to this topic

#15501 CK16

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:02 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 20 January 2017 - 11:00 AM, said:



At 90t? True Battlemechs or what it should have been to carry the name plate it does?

The true ones to the 90t. FLG would like to see the options we (mostly you lol) have thought up for PGI varriants

#15502 Metus regem

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:19 AM

View PostCK16, on 20 January 2017 - 11:02 AM, said:

The true ones to the 90t. FLG would like to see the options we (mostly you lol) have thought up for PGI varriants



ugh...

Well these are the 90t versions.


Hero, for the Kahn of CDS
Spoiler


The exerpimental

Spoiler


The Timber Wolf Prime knock off variant

Spoiler


The Metus Variant

Spoiler


What she should be

Spoiler

Edited by Metus regem, 20 January 2017 - 11:20 AM.

#15503 CK16

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:29 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 20 January 2017 - 11:19 AM, said:



ugh...

Well these are the 90t versions.


Hero, for the Kahn of CDS
Spoiler


The exerpimental

Spoiler


The Timber Wolf Prime knock off variant

Spoiler


The Metus Variant

Spoiler


What she should be

Spoiler


Thank you good sir!

#15504 Metus regem

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:31 AM

View PostCK16, on 20 January 2017 - 11:29 AM, said:

Thank you good sir!


Welcome. Posted Image

I still like my 85t Omni mech version a lot more than the 90t versions of it.

#15505 CK16

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 11:35 AM

View PostMetus regem, on 20 January 2017 - 11:31 AM, said:


Welcome. Posted Image

I still like my 85t Omni mech version a lot more than the 90t versions of it.

Me as well, maybe could try to get that into a Fan TRO as an experimental design that was deemed not as cost effective for CDS to produce. Could say was a combination of Warhawk and Timberwolf Chassis ect after aquiring the tooling from old Smoke Jaguar holdings. The design could have had X issues that the battlemech development was deemed a better option for easy production ect.

#15506 Metus regem

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:01 PM

View PostCK16, on 20 January 2017 - 11:35 AM, said:

Me as well, maybe could try to get that into a Fan TRO as an experimental design that was deemed not as cost effective for CDS to produce. Could say was a combination of Warhawk and Timberwolf Chassis ect after aquiring the tooling from old Smoke Jaguar holdings. The design could have had X issues that the battlemech development was deemed a better option for easy production ect.



Or try to get it submitted as a Clan only version, as she would look identical to the Mad Cat II... as it is an efficient Omni-mech it would be leading edge clan tech.

#15507 CK16

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:18 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 20 January 2017 - 12:01 PM, said:



Or try to get it submitted as a Clan only version, as she would look identical to the Mad Cat II... as it is an efficient Omni-mech it would be leading edge clan tech.


Are we talking Wiz kids Mad cat II or mk ii with straight arms? Lol

#15508 Metus regem

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:27 PM

View PostCK16, on 20 January 2017 - 12:18 PM, said:

Are we talking Wiz kids Mad cat II or mk ii with straight arms? Lol



Full on:

Posted Image

For the 85t Omni version, courteously of your tallents CK.

#15509 Odanan

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:39 AM

Here is what I want for next Clan light mech.

View PostOdanan, on 15 January 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Fire Moth (Dasher)

20 tons, 173.34 (with Speed Tweak, without MASC), Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous.

Fire Moth Prime:
LA 2e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 1m
RA 1m

Fire Moth A:
LA AMS
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 1m
RA 1e

Fire Moth B: (the A-Pod can be replaced by extra armor, like PGI did in the Hellbringer)
LA 1e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 1e
RA 2b, ECM (yes, it has ECM, even if there is no mention in Sarna)

Fire Moth C:
LA 1m
LT
CT MASC
H
RT AMS
RA 1m

Fire Moth D:
LA 2e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT 2e
RA 2e

Fire Moth H: (introduced in 3060)
LA 4e (4 heavy small lasers)
LT
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 5e (5 heavy small lasers)

Fire Moth Aletha "hero" configuration : (introduced in 3068)
LA 3e
LT ECM
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 1e

#15510 Metus regem

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:47 AM

View PostOdanan, on 22 January 2017 - 10:39 AM, said:

Here is what I want for next Clan light mech.


It's funny, that's the wrong layout for the Piranha.....

Yes I know 12 MG's would be borderline OP, but it would still be 20t that would require face time to get that OP....

#15511 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:07 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 22 January 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

It's funny, that's the wrong layout for the Piranha.....

Yes I know 12 MG's would be borderline OP, but it would still be 20t that would require face time to get that OP....

Why do people assume the 12 MGs will make the Piranha "OP"? Folks...have you looked at the robot? Even if you strip ALL the lasers, and some armor, it's not packing enough ammo. It'll sound cool, look cool, and maybe kill 1 mech before running out of ammo. 2 or 3 if they are already stripped.

#15512 FupDup

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:10 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Why do people assume the 12 MGs will make the Piranha "OP"? Folks...have you looked at the robot? Even if you strip ALL the lasers, and some armor, it's not packing enough ammo. It'll sound cool, look cool, and maybe kill 1 mech before running out of ammo. 2 or 3 if they are already stripped.

That, and because 20-ton gundams are very fragile. Especially when they're humanoids so they have more surface area to shoot at than the Locust. And since it's Clan it probably would have very weak quirks at best.

I'm not worried, but I'm sure that a lot of Spuds out there are...

#15513 Metus regem

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:11 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Why do people assume the 12 MGs will make the Piranha "OP"? Folks...have you looked at the robot? Even if you strip ALL the lasers, and some armor, it's not packing enough ammo. It'll sound cool, look cool, and maybe kill 1 mech before running out of ammo. 2 or 3 if they are already stripped.


Yup, but she'd be a fun ride though.

#15514 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 12:35 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 22 January 2017 - 12:11 PM, said:

Yup, but she'd be a fun ride though.

If you're a minute man, maybe. Some of us prefer long rides. ;)

#15515 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:02 PM

Thinking about making a new Dark Age Clan, one that fields only Assault designs,
Posted Image
Clan Cave Sloth.

We were actually one of the original Clans... it's just it took us this long to get to the Inner Sphere. We also really like Annihilators. And instead of Elementals, er use Urbie IICs.

Why? Cuz bored.

#15516 Sereglach

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:08 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 22 January 2017 - 10:47 AM, said:

Yes I know 12 MG's would be borderline OP, but it would still be 20t that would require face time to get that OP....

Well, funny enough, swap the ER Small to an ER Medium and the Mediums to Smalls, then add Ferro and drop to 8 MG's. That gives you 3 tons of ammo with no other changes; and you've still got a fair amount of energy backups. Strip the two smalls and you have 4 tons.

Nearly 8 DPS off MGs with 8k rounds. That's close to 800 potential damage (with no laser fire) in 1 min 40 seconds of non-stop weapons fire. . . . Yeah . . . I'd drive it.

It might be a quick burn mech, but it'd be fun as Hell. It's still far from OP, though. Try going for 12 MG's and you'll have like 3 tons ammo, tops (in retaining a modicum of backup weapons), which just isn't enough for those bullet-hoses.

#15517 Odanan

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 01:14 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 22 January 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Why do people assume the 12 MGs will make the Piranha "OP"? Folks...have you looked at the robot? Even if you strip ALL the lasers, and some armor, it's not packing enough ammo. It'll sound cool, look cool, and maybe kill 1 mech before running out of ammo. 2 or 3 if they are already stripped.

Well, it's not assuming when you can get the numbers.

Look at this Shadowcat: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...26a8671ab7da1c5
Now double the DPS (because Piranha would have exactly the double of these weapons). Just 4 tons of guns (plus 2 of ammo?), 14.48 DPS, heat neutral.

This means...
2 secs = 28.95 damage
4 secs = 57.92 damage

In the time the victim do an alpha, the Piranha will mow through its armor and obliterate the internal structure. If you are a light or medium mech, you are dead in a couple of seconds. If you are heavier, you will survive agonize a little longer.

So what? Your ammo will run out in 20 seconds? That's 5 mechs dead. And you will still have a couple of small lasers...

And if you guys think you can't survive all the match in a light mech as fast (and tiny) as this one... well, maybe you should leave the light mech spot for somebody else.

#15518 Sereglach

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 06:02 PM

View PostOdanan, on 22 January 2017 - 01:14 PM, said:

*snip*

I'd say there's a lot more to it than just the DPS figures; and even those don't tell the whole story. This is coming from someone who's a primary light pilot. A Piranha would not be OP. Strong for its weight class? Yes. Overpowered? No. Let me explain:

Consider the DPS of 2xAC/20s vs. 10xMGs (close to being the same at ~10 DPS), which are two extremes of the equation . . . the pinnacle of assault ballistics vs. the pinnacle of light ballistics. Those AC 20's are click and shoot, with 4 seconds of cooling down, afterwards. That's time to reposition, spread damage, or any number of other things as you prepare for your next shot. On the other hand, the MG's require constant face-time and are not PPFLD, while they also have a cone of fire (smaller, but still there) and an exceptionally short optimal range.

The MG damage can be easily spread, outranged, and countered. The AC/20s will look at you, squeeze the trigger, and -if you're a light- something is going boom (God forbid it's a leg) . . . all at over twice the optimal range of an MG. Think about how people will call out AC/20 mechs and whatnot now. The team will make a concerted effort to single it out and remove it in the safest ways possible. The same will be true of a Piranha with high DPS (8-12 MGs). If it gets close you'll take pot-shots and spread damage, while at the same time other hard counters will come in and deal with the problem. Lasers and Streaks can ruin a light mech's day if the user can aim and time shots (and don't forget Clan Streaks vs. MG range . . . ouch).

Sure, those 12xMG's for a Piranha look beastly on paper when bringing it into MWO, but that's also 1 ton of ammo. In TT that's enough . . . in MWO that's nothing . . . 200 damage in ~17 seconds IF you have flawless accuracy. Oh, and we all know that 200 damage/ton is NOT going to be located in the same spot with a cone of fire and any remotely competent pilot attempting to move or spread damage.

You have to start making sacrifices; and whether it's guns, armor, or engine, either way you're sacrificing something else crucial to try to maintain those 12MG's. That's just not going to work out, in the end, to be some sort of OP monster in MWO. 8x MG's (in the build I listed earlier, which would have some sustainability) would still be out-DPS'd by an Arctic Cheetah with 6xC-ERSL (1.54 x 6 = 9.24 DPS), with better burst, flexibility, no ammo concerns, while still having more armor, and just as much maneuverability (probably more so with jump jets).

The end result for a Piranha in MWO? A nice and reasonably strong light mech that's still far from being OP.

Edited by Sereglach, 22 January 2017 - 08:16 PM.

#15519 Karl Streiger

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:04 AM

View PostSereglach, on 22 January 2017 - 06:02 PM, said:

snip

have to disagree with a vengance. Posted Image

you didn't dare to compare 28t weapons and 14 heat and ammunition with what 2.5t weapons no heat and ammunition?
Are the 10MGs worse in comparison with the Dual AC20 - of course, they are. They should be even worse.

You dual AC20 mech is a clumsy beast - you 10mg mech is a fast one - the first need to break through central armor and range is an issue - the second dictate range and can attack the rear.

#15520 Odanan

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 04:01 AM

View PostKarl Streiger, on 23 January 2017 - 12:04 AM, said:

have to disagree with a vengance. Posted Image

you didn't dare to compare 28t weapons and 14 heat and ammunition with what 2.5t weapons no heat and ammunition?
Are the 10MGs worse in comparison with the Dual AC20 - of course, they are. They should be even worse.

You dual AC20 mech is a clumsy beast - you 10mg mech is a fast one - the first need to break through central armor and range is an issue - the second dictate range and can attack the rear.

Indeed. The Piranha can just stay with his teammates, circling through the "R" key and quickly finishing off any wounded enemy.

If the enemy team focus on the Piranha, even better. We know what happens when the enemy team try to chase/destroy the squirrel...
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