20517 replies to this topic

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 08:40 AM, said:

Wasn't the Clan Invasion 100% MW2 mechs? (OK, the Adder was not in that game)

As I said before, I don't care in what previous game a Mech was. I care about lore and performance. The Timberwolf e.g. is not relevant just for the reason that it was in MW:2. On the contrary: it was in MW:2 because it was important to BattleTech.
Same goes goes for pretty much every Mech in the Clan Invasion pack. They are important without MW:2, and some of them are very powerful in MWO too. That's what makes them obvious choices.

And if it is an insignficant Mech with bad performance from MW:4 or whatever, it remains an insignficant Mech with bad performance, and it should not be considered.

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Anyway, there were only 6 MW4 mechs released: Uziel, Cougar, Mad Cat MKII, Osiris, Nova Cat and Thanatos. Hellspawn is certainly next, but after that, there will be 2 non-MW4 Clan mechs

You are missing the Arctic Wolf, which was also a MW:4 Mech (Clan Expansion pack; the official MS one). That makes seven; add the Hellspawn and we are at eight. Again, that is no small number, especially not considering a rather short span of time.

Compare this to people who want new and fresh Mechs added to the game: so far there is only the Nightstar since FCCW-patch. That's a 1:8 ratio and you want to tell me the guys with "8" on their side desperately deserve more? (And that's before considering the horrible choices like the Chimera!)

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 08:37 AM, said:

Now I will need to buy an Uziel as soon as it's released for C-Bills so I can make it work.

Would be interesting to see a Uziel in the field for once. They are all gone, you know...

[Odanan]

Adridos, on 30 August 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

If you look into the case Harmony Gold, to their credit, hasn't attacked the IIC machines. They never have.

The designs were done by Japanese to make the port of Mechwarrior 1 look consistent. Separate IP called for separate designs, not an anime zoo that Battletech was at the time. Plus, they didn't have rights to any of the shows.
Still, those mechs are those mechs. The fact FASA renamed them doesn't change that they are only better drawn versions of the underlying designs and all derived from the original machines that HG is so uppity about.

They might, however. If even the Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust were added to the suit. Marauder IIC, Warhammer IIC and Rifleman IIC are still somewhat similar with their IS counterparts.

[Adridos]

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

They might, however. If even the Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust were added to the suit. Marauder IIC, Warhammer IIC and Rifleman IIC are still somewhat similar with their IS counterparts.

I'm pretty sure they were going after the unseens that the game is supposed to have and even showed for about a year in the demo (the first gameplay demos all had a Marauder in them). The promotional material only mentioned them, didn't show them, hence the shotgun approach to it.
Or maybe they just went after the guy who signed a piece of paper to never do it again. I don't know and chances are we will never know, either.

I am pretty sure they could just go and point at Mechwarrior 1 going, "Yeah, nah. We're doing these from that Japanese game that you have 0 ground to stand on with." They went pretty deep with the cases used against CGL so I doubt they'd just let Marauder IIC slide if they could utter a single word against it.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 09:06 AM, said:

FTFY

Works for me, mine was just quick and dirty off the top of my head. I went with Clan Wolf, due to the usage of the word "hound" not being used in a derogatory way, like the jaguars did with Mad Dog.

[FLG 01]

Regarding the Conjurer/Hellhound... I could see it work. MW:4 and official line art are different but they are expressions of the same Mech. There are only two little problems:

First, there is the name. That's an easy one. Clans called it Conjurer, IS called it Hellhound. Imo we can just choose one. It would not be totally strange for the Clans to use the IS designation, especially if - as Metus Regem said - some circumstances may have forced it into the spotlight after the Clan Invasion.

Second is the appearence. Well, MS wanted a less humanoid Mech and asked Dave White, the artist, to redesign the Conjurer accordingly. If you see the seperate (failed) stages of the redesign you can see the origins pretty clearly. Now redesigned appearences are (unfortunately) known in the BattleTech universe too (Reseen... heck, the Conjurer was part of the Reseen redesign!).
Also, there is a reason for it: the not-named Clan. Why just change the name? Change the look too, so that it does not look anything like the evil-named IS Wolverine! Purge the memory, make it as different as possible.

I mean there are far better options for the Clans, but the Conjurer is a possibility.

Edited by FLG 01, 30 August 2017 - 10:57 AM.

[Metus regem]

FLG 01, on 30 August 2017 - 10:56 AM, said:

Regarding the Conjurer/Hellhound... I could see it work. MW:4 and official line art are different but they are expressions of the same Mech. There are only two little problems:

First, there is the name. That's an easy one. Clans called it Conjurer, IS called it Hellhound. Imo we can just choose one. It would not be totally strange for the Clans to use the IS designation, especially if - as Metus Regem said - some circumstances may have forced it into the spotlight after the Clan Invasion.

Second is the appearence. Well, MS wanted a less humanoid Mech and asked Dave White, the artist, to redesign the Conjurer accordingly. If you see the seperate (failed) stages of the redesign you can see the origins pretty clearly. Now redesigned appearences are (unfortunately) known in the BattleTech universe too (Reseen... heck, the Conjurer was part of the Reseen redesign!).
Also, there is a reason for it: the not-named Clan. Why just change the name? Change the look too, so that it does not look anything like the evil-named IS Wolverine! Purge the memory, make it as different as possible.

I mean there are far better options for the Clans, but the Conjurer is a possibility.

A good example of the Clans using the IS designation over the Clan one in universe is that of the Ebon Jaguar, the Clans even called it the Cauldron-Born.

Quote

Named after the zombies of Irish myth, Inner Sphere warriors that first encountered it during the Battle of Luthien called this 'Mech the Cauldron-Born. Ironically, the Clan Smoke Jaguar 'Mech that was intended to replace the Loki was not referred to by its Clan designation, Ebon Jaguar, by other Clans as it was still so new that many Clans just called it by its Inner Sphere designation.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 09:14 AM, said:

They might, however. If even the Atlas, Shadow Hawk and Locust were added to the suit. Marauder IIC, Warhammer IIC and Rifleman IIC are still somewhat similar with their IS counterparts.

Spoiler

Yeah I don't see the similarities. What is there even to compare here? Gun barrels? That they are humanoid and they have two legs? My statement still stands. HG would have looked like complete fools if they compared the Destroid Defender to the Rifleman IIC in court.

Adridos, on 30 August 2017 - 08:49 AM, said:

If you look into the case Harmony Gold, to their credit, hasn't attacked the IIC machines. They never have.

The designs were done by Japanese to make the port of Mechwarrior 1 look consistent. Separate IP called for separate designs, not an anime zoo that Battletech was at the time. Plus, they didn't have rights to any of the shows.
Still, those mechs are those mechs. The fact FASA renamed them doesn't change that they are only better drawn versions of the underlying designs and all derived from the original machines that HG is so uppity about.

You are 100% correct. It was Victor Musical Industries that rebuilt the mechs specifically for Battletech. We can all thank FASA for the IIC unseens being thrown into the unseen category to begin with. I'm as angry at the non-existent company now since they didn't want to take "risks" with certain designs of the IICs as I am with Harmony Gold. I mean sure, some of the unseen IICs are clearly influences but that is about it.

[Karl Streiger]

FLG 01, on 30 August 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

You are missing the Arctic Wolf, which was also a MW:4 Mech (Clan Expansion pack; the official MS one). That makes seven; add the Hellspawn and we are at eight. Again, that is no small number, especially not considering a rather short span of time.

Speaking of:
Highlander, Zeus, Dragon, Gladiator, DireWolf, TimberWolf, Thor, Loki, MadDog, Ryokken.... almost the whole MWO consists of designs you find in MW4 -
So can we go the route of the never before released Night Star? (not even in MechCommander) - We will ever be in your debt Arisen.

[FLG 01]

Karl Streiger, on 30 August 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

Highlander, Zeus, Dragon, Gladiator, DireWolf, TimberWolf, Thor, Loki, MadDog, Ryokken.... almost the whole MWO consists of designs you find in MW4

That's fine with me because all of them are important to BattleTech (and some are useful in MWO) regardless of MW:4. The same would be true for the Fafnir, the Templar, and some others. If a Mech is important in the lore and powerful in MWO I take it.

Btw... curious is actually the case of newly introduced variants by MW:4. The ZEU-9S2 e.g. was in MW:4 long before it was canonized by RS:3050Uu. And funny enough, it is far better in TT than in MWO...

Karl Streiger, on 30 August 2017 - 09:38 PM, said:

So can we go the route of the never before released Night Star? (not even in MechCommander) - We will ever be in your debt Arisen.

That would actually be a fascinating route to take. I mean, there are designs you just cannot ignore when doing a FCCW-themed game (although PGI has done it so far, unfortunately...). But there are also good Mechs with a significant role in the lore which have not appeared in any video game. And excluding them does not seem right, especially not considering what they could do in MWO.

The Nightstar is but the first step into a larger world. And we need many more steps.

Edited by FLG 01, 30 August 2017 - 09:57 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Odanan, on 30 August 2017 - 03:53 AM, said:

These are the mechs people know.

You know, this was my first thought too - people who only played MW4 will only know those 'Mechs from back then. But then again, if these people remember the 'Mechs, so too will they remember how bad they were. Or at least they should. Or mabye they do and voted because of that, in some sort of twisted MST3k-esque humour? Who knows.

On a sidenote, besides the 3025-mediums I'd really love to see the Grim Reaper in MWO.

[The Lighthouse]

Thorn Hallis, on 30 August 2017 - 11:01 PM, said:

You know, this was my first thought too - people who only played MW4 will only know those 'Mechs from back then. But then again, if these people remember the 'Mechs, so too will they remember how bad they were. Or at least they should. Or mabye they do and voted because of that, in some sort of twisted MST3k-esque humour? Who knows.

On a sidenote, besides the 3025-mediums I'd really love to see the Grim Reaper in MWO.

Yes, I played MW4 a lot, and I remember those mechs were truly bad.

Uziel was popular and remembered not just for aesthetics, but it was also the least bad option for medium mechs.

But then again, if you play them long enough, they eventually stuck in your heart, and you will never be able to be separated from them forever. That's why people want them so bad.

[Bishop Steiner]

*whistles innocently*

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 August 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

*whistles innocently*

Where is the Berserker?

[SuperFunkTron]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 August 2017 - 02:08 AM, said:

*whistles innocently*

I really hope they come up with a way to make melee a thing. I've been trying to come up with ideas using a mix of canned animations (maybe just movements) and distribution of the damage and consequences in case an attempt is missed. There are a few, but I'm no programmer and thus have no idea if I'm wasting my time on those ideas or not.

Until then, we should make a nagging list with knockdowns (Russ said they were separate from melee and still possible to implement) on it right after we get some FP features like Incentiveze Faction Specific Mechs and maybe a Dynamic Alliance System or logistics related pay outs.

[Karl Streiger]

Yeah i have no problem with the Hatchetman without working Hatchet (make it a gimmick in MWO) like a extra large shield arm....put the weight in armor and hope for HBS to implement the hatchet there

[Metus regem]

Karl Streiger, on 31 August 2017 - 06:50 AM, said:

Yeah i have no problem with the Hatchetman without working Hatchet (make it a gimmick in MWO) like a extra large shield arm....put the weight in armor and hope for HBS to implement the hatchet there

Not to mention in the first printing of the Hatchetman, didn't have the hatchet, but a couple extra SHS as the rules for hatchets were not done yet.... So there is precedent for having it with out melee.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

Yeah i have no problem with the Hatchetman without working Hatchet (make it a gimmick in MWO) like a extra large shield arm....put the weight in armor and hope for HBS to implement the hatchet there

Quote

Not to mention in the first printing of the Hatchetman, didn't have the hatchet, but a couple extra SHS as the rules for hatchets were not done yet.... So there is precedent for having it with out melee.

Yeah, the technically errata'd "NC" (no club) Hatchetman.

Melee animations apparently would be a hard re-do for PGI, but like many things, not being able to carry over equipment from TT increasingly cramps their style.

[SuperFunkTron]

With your suggestions on how to handle the axe you've convinced (not sure if that's a punishment or reward) me to explain my melee idea. It would work in a few steps:
1. Just as in lore, a separate set of controls was used when committing to melee from projectile. "Flipping a switch" to activate "Melee Mode" could be an active action by the player that requires a tiny time/skill investment in order to prep the mech for attack.

2. A few canned animations can be made for each mech so that there are predictable actions that can be accounted for in terms of hitreg. This would look something like Titanfall to an extent, and in order to help keep the player oriented, they could even have the pilot's head try to track either the intended enemy or the flow of movement of their own mech so we don't make him motion sick.

3. The damage taken could be determined by proximity or by when contact is made by the action (maybe both) and distributed accordingly to where the contact was made and if we want any splash effect (because blunt forces crumple and send shock waves rather than pierce. A mech fist or foot would be blunt based on the surface area as far as I can tell). In the case that a mech completely misses, there could be a "stumble" action to regain balance as a consequence.

4. Types of melee: i. Punch- could assign different weapon groups for left vs right punch. ii. Kick could assign different weapon groups for left vs right kick. iii. Ramming attacks- this could be based on speed of the mech attacking and deciding if it is a kick, punch, or shoulder could be determined by selecting one of the above weapon groups or a 5th for the shoulder.

5. Melee would be limited to IS mechs per lore and further differentiate IS vs Clan play style.

Notes: Knock downs would first need to be implemented for the best effect and something like a stability bar (a laHBS's Battletech) could be used as a visual aide for pilots to know how stable their mech is. That stability bar could also be useful in relation to knock downs in the case of determining how much ballistic and missile fire it takes to knock a mech down.

I'm sure there are technical issues in that idea, but I think getting even a rough model of it working with even one mech in a video would be HUGE in letting the community determine if it looks good enough to follow through with or if it really should be put to rest.

[Valdarion Silarius]

If we ever did get melee in MW:O and the hachetman....



Then we better get giant mech polearms as well. I am 1000% ok with this if this did happen.

(Wanting a giant mech poleaxe or bardiche intensifies)

[Brain Cancer]

That explains it.

Toblerone shrank their candy size, so the Halberdman ended up the Hatchetman by 3025.