20517 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Colddawg, on 24 October 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

..........BTU.

British Thermal Units? j\k

[FireSlade]

Odanan, on 24 October 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

Early Lucas Arts games = best games ever. X-Wing and Tie-Fighter are some of the "games of my life".

PS: it's not the same thing, but did you know Dice is developing the new Star Wars Battlefront? Now I have a reason to hold on on life until 2015. ;P

I whole heartedly agree; during the mid 90s I grew up playing the Darkforces series and the X Wing series. Towards the end of the 90s I got into MechWarrior 3 and Tribes so that pretty much was my childhood. So far all my favorite games have gotten a reboot except the X Wing series which I have been hoping happen soon but I doubt it. I did not know about the Battlefront game, thanks for mentioning it and making me want to spend more money that I do not have, lol. The 1st two games while fun were a bit of a let down with the AI being way too easy. I would like to see where DICE takes the game and I have some hopes that they use some elements and ideas from the past games like Republic Commando and BF1/2 that really made those games stand out.

[Bishop Steiner]

Colddawg, on 24 October 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Goes back to "you can't please everyone" which is why I feel they should interpret TT into a game how they feel it should work to be true to the BTU.

Things like how ECM are working will probably pan out to be balanced in the long run. They're not just doing stuff willy-nilly. They've planned this out for 3+ years from even before they released their initial tease of the Warhammer waltzing through the city.

That's the feel I have often gotten. Some things may feel off nOW, but many of those things, as other features rolled out, turned out to be much less an issue after. We might not have always agreed with their approach (such as Ghost Heat) yet in the end it did do (mostly) what they want. IDK, tbh I don't even think about it anymore, I just balance my builds and exercise trigger control.

Thing is, Odanan mentioned egomanical artists... what about when the "fanbase" becaomes the egomaniacal ones? The artsist, and making a game is still an art, has to be true to their vision, or they are already untrue to the fans. That vision changes sometimes. The fans have the choice to decide if they like the new vision, or not.

Kinda like in my mind, Metallica. They changed their style and sound in the 90s. Have kept doing their own thing since, despite the vocal minority raging about it. I say minority because they are selling more tickets and shows and stuff now then ever, so obviously what they are doing appeals to someone. Lots of someone. But people say they sold out their fans. I ask, is it more of a sell out to keep doing something you don't believe in for the fans approval (like oh, Slayer for the last 20 years) or to accept that your change is going to **** some people off, but you have to be true to yourself first?

If a game studio has to work a game they no longer support or recognize or enjoy, how are they going to have the passion to deliver it? Conversely, if they believe, they may still fail, but at least they were honest with themselves. They have a plan, one that sometimes needs to alter, and one that is certainly not on schedule, but better, IMO to see it through, and make modest changes after, then just scrap it all for certain fans, who will rail and complain anytime you do something they dont agree with, anyhow.

Most of the most rabid QQ on here came from people that you could have delivered a 99% perfect beyond your dreams game, and they still woulda complained about that 1%

[Ens]

while we´re at it:






B2T:
where the hell is the Zeus?

[SgtMagor]

here!

[Odanan]

Colddawg, on 24 October 2013 - 11:47 AM, said:

Goes back to "you can't please everyone" which is why I feel they should interpret TT into a game how they feel it should work to be true to the BTU.

Things like how ECM are working will probably pan out to be balanced in the long run. They're not just doing stuff willy-nilly. They've planned this out for 3+ years from even before they released their initial tease of the Warhammer waltzing through the city.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 October 2013 - 12:47 PM, said:

That's the feel I have often gotten. Some things may feel off nOW, but many of those things, as other features rolled out, turned out to be much less an issue after. We might not have always agreed with their approach (such as Ghost Heat) yet in the end it did do (mostly) what they want. IDK, tbh I don't even think about it anymore, I just balance my builds and exercise trigger control.

Thing is, Odanan mentioned egomanical artists... what about when the "fanbase" becaomes the egomaniacal ones? The artsist, and making a game is still an art, has to be true to their vision, or they are already untrue to the fans. That vision changes sometimes. The fans have the choice to decide if they like the new vision, or not.

Kinda like in my mind, Metallica. They changed their style and sound in the 90s. Have kept doing their own thing since, despite the vocal minority raging about it. I say minority because they are selling more tickets and shows and stuff now then ever, so obviously what they are doing appeals to someone. Lots of someone. But people say they sold out their fans. I ask, is it more of a sell out to keep doing something you don't believe in for the fans approval (like oh, Slayer for the last 20 years) or to accept that your change is going to **** some people off, but you have to be true to yourself first?

If a game studio has to work a game they no longer support or recognize or enjoy, how are they going to have the passion to deliver it? Conversely, if they believe, they may still fail, but at least they were honest with themselves. They have a plan, one that sometimes needs to alter, and one that is certainly not on schedule, but better, IMO to see it through, and make modest changes after, then just scrap it all for certain fans, who will rail and complain anytime you do something they dont agree with, anyhow.

Most of the most rabid QQ on here came from people that you could have delivered a 99% perfect beyond your dreams game, and they still woulda complained about that 1%

You guys give PGI too much credit.

It's 3051 and they still don't have a clear idea of how Clans will be implemented (and you think they have a long term plan for the game?).

Sure, they are doing what they think its the best for the game. Are they doing it right? Please tell be about the success of the Coolant Flushes and the 3rd Person View.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 24 October 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

You guys give PGI too much credit.

It's 3051 and they still don't have a clear idea of how Clans will be implemented (and you think they have a long term plan for the game?).

Sure, they are doing what they think its the best for the game. Are they doing it right? Please tell be about the success of the Coolant Flushes and the 3rd Person View.

to maintain your level of negativity takes far to much energy. Cool Flushes and 3pV have been exactly how game breaking?

Not here to convince you of anything. Your mind is made up, which is your prerogative. I still find myself playing almost daily. So to my mind they must be doing something right. If I was as convinced of you of the failure of this game, I would find something a lot more constructive than ghosting it's forms letting it make me become more toxic.

[Phoenix Branson]

Odanan, on 24 October 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

You guys give PGI too much credit.

It's 3051 and they still don't have a clear idea of how Clans will be implemented (and you think they have a long term plan for the game?).

Sure, they are doing what they think its the best for the game. Are they doing it right? Please tell be about the success of the Coolant Flushes and the 3rd Person View.

This game is still very young as it entered open beta on Oct. 16 of last year. I think you are judging this game too soon. With the implementation of Community Warfare and UI 2.0, this game will go from decent to excellent. No one can argue, the gameplay is solid. There are balance issues, but they are working on it (takes time). As for the 'Mechs and maps, they are generating great content for the game. Who cares about coolant flush and 3pV, its not game breaking. If it brings more people to MWO, its good to have in the game. If you want to play hardcore e-sports, 12 man groups will be first person view only.

People need to have a little more patience. Game design is like walking a tightrope, slow and steady. Imagine what this game will look like 2 years from now, epic indeed! PGI took a big gamble making this game as this is the only project they are currently working on. If anyone wants to see MWO succeed, its PGI.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 October 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

to maintain your level of negativity takes far to much energy. Cool Flushes and 3pV have been exactly how game breaking?

Not here to convince you of anything. Your mind is made up, which is your prerogative. I still find myself playing almost daily. So to my mind they must be doing something right. If I was as convinced of you of the failure of this game, I would find something a lot more constructive than ghosting it's forms letting it make me become more toxic.

You are right, I'm but a ghost here. I used to love the game, but not anymore.

I still love Battletech, tough, and I still want this game to be as fun as in the Closed Beta.

Forgive me if I point what I think it's wrong in the game.
There are two ways of helping an endeavor: one is protecting it, no matter what (I see you guys are already doing that). That leaves me with the other way, which is criticizing it, hoping it won't deviate so much from the path that it will fail.

PS: Still in the subject of the artist stuff, sometimes, when the artist try to print too much his watermark to a project, the result is ridiculous. See movies like Lady in the Water and The Happening, by M. Night Shyamalan. Clearly there wasn't a single person in the production with the voice to say "hey, wait a minute, this thing won't work".

[Odanan]

Jeez, this thread was created in June 2012.

Since then I try to reason several things but specially choices for mechs to be added to the game (because I believe the mechs are the "spiirt" of MWO). I even post detailed charts (like this and this) and arguments, hoping a developer will eventually pass by be touched.

Do you think I don't care for this game?

[FireSlade]

Odanan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

You are right, I'm but a ghost here. I used to love the game, but not anymore.

I still love Battletech, tough, and I still want this game to be as fun as in the Closed Beta.

Forgive me if I point what I think it's wrong in the game.
There are two ways of helping an endeavor: one is protecting it, no matter what (I see you guys are already doing that). That leaves me with the other way, which is criticizing it, hoping it won't deviate so much from the path that it will fail.

PS: Still in the subject of the artist stuff, sometimes, when the artist try to print too much his watermark to a project, the result is ridiculous. See movies like Lady in the Water and The Happening, by M. Night Shyamalan. Clearly there wasn't a single person in the production with the voice to say "hey, wait a minute, this thing won't work".

Odanan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Jeez, this thread was created in June 2012.

Since then I try to reason several things but specially choices for mechs to be added to the game (because I believe the mechs are the "spiirt" of MWO). I even post detailed charts (like this and this) and arguments, hoping a developer will eventually pass by be touched.

Do you think I don't care for this game?

I can definitely understand how you feel and why you have made your choices even though I am more on Bishops side with how the game is. The fact that you try to get the Devs. to see your POV in how the game is proves that you care. There is a ton of stuff that I am not happy with how the game is being run, but I do not know the bigger picture or the limitations of the staff and CryEngine 3. So other than pointing out a few things that I think is plausible for them to put in, I just try to adapt to what they are interpreting as Battletech made real. Funny thing is I have never been this involved in a game; usually I just play until I get bored then move on to the next.

With all that being said, I have been a tad bored with the current weapons and equipment, so maybe we can talk PGI into some current 3050 mechs that have some different weapons like the Arrow IV, Long Tom, Swarm LRMs, etc. for the may mech release since I know that the clans will not be ready by then.

[Colddawg]

Odanan, on 24 October 2013 - 04:11 PM, said:

You guys give PGI too much credit.

It's 3051 and they still don't have a clear idea of how Clans will be implemented (and you think they have a long term plan for the game?).

Sure, they are doing what they think its the best for the game. Are they doing it right? Please tell be about the success of the Coolant Flushes and the 3rd Person View.

3PV yes, coolant flush-EFF NO! 3PV is a choice and there are disadvantages to it, but coolant flush which they said would NEVER be in the game is a screw up on their part.

The part with the clan is tough. You have over powered and extremely advanced technology that was only ever balanced out in terms of cost and limited numbers of clan pilots. That will not work here where anyone can get clan tech so it must be rebalanced in an entirely new way.

[Phoenix Branson]

Odanan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:

Jeez, this thread was created in June 2012.

Since then I try to reason several things but specially choices for mechs to be added to the game (because I believe the mechs are the "spiirt" of MWO). I even post detailed charts (like this and this) and arguments, hoping a developer will eventually pass by be touched.

Do you think I don't care for this game?

I can tell you still care about the game. Is there anything PGI could do to bring you back?

[Odanan]

Colddawg, on 25 October 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The part with the clan is tough. You have over powered and extremely advanced technology that was only ever balanced out in terms of cost and limited numbers of clan pilots. That will not work here where anyone can get clan tech so it must be rebalanced in an entirely new way.

Have you heard of asymmetrical warfare? Sure, it is tricky to implement in a game* but please don't say (as the devs are suggesting) that Clans can't be added to the game without their equipment being "balanced" (AKA nerfed to the ground).

*even tricky, some companies had the brains and balls to do it, like Blizzard in the Warcraft and Starcraft series.

PS: how to do it in a game like MWO?
- teams with different sizes and/or teams with different total weight (preferentially battles of Clan team vs. IS team);
- (or a simpler solution, even if it lose the flavor of "Clan Invasion") making battles of only Clans vs. Clans and IS vs. IS.

Maverick01, on 25 October 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

I can tell you still care about the game. Is there anything PGI could do to bring you back?

Start caring for the community's feedback.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 25 October 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

.
There are two ways of helping an endeavor: one is protecting it, no matter what (I see you guys are already doing that).

Sorry, Odanan, if your post lost a little credibility there.

I was one of those who led the charge against 3pV and again with the original consumables plan and when they removed GenDis from the Forums. And I have frequently commented, and supported threads about how to improve the game. Things like proper Mech scaling, Fixing the Heat Scale(Through set threshhold, and effects at different heat levels), etc.

The problem a lot of those critiquing have seemed to miss, is that if you keep the volume cranked to 11 at all times, people tune you out as white noise eventually. If your generalities are inaccurate (such as accusing me of white-kniighting, aka always protecting PGI) your arguments as a whole, lose credibility.

Community complained about poptarting,
-cockpit shake implemented.

Community complains about uber energy boating, (and missile and ballistic)
-Ghost Heat implemented

Community complains PPC is not effective
- Damage buffed, damage scatter fix, heat reduced, projectile speed increased

People complain PPC now too effective
- Heat increased, projectile speed slowed down, standard ppc ineffective under 90 meters

Community complains about the pinpoint alpha sniping damage
-"sniper" Gauss mechanic added/PPC projectile slowed, to desync the two.

Community complains about ECM being OP
-Hard counters are added through BAP, TAG, PPC strikes, etc.

Kintaro CT SUCKS
-Fixed in hot patch.

Medium Mechs not effective enough
- Medium Mechs receive substantial agility buffs.


Have all the solutions been wildly effective, or always done in the exact manner parts of the community would prefer? No. But they have all been in response to community feedback, and that's just one's off the top of my head. Go back through almost any patch notes, and most mechanic changes have been based off of forum feedback.

So, are we always happy with what we get? Does PGI live by our every whim and suggestion? No.

But to say they don't listen to the community is disingenuous at best, a flat out lie at worst. There are many reasons that a Developer cannot or does not communicate on all things, expecting them to be at our beck and call, and acquiesce to all our demands is silly, especially when your list of demands is totally counter to say, my list of demands, which is counter to Vassagos. Whose input should they listen to? Whose jobs are on the line if the game fails? It's laughable to think that any company WANTS to alienate the fanbase.

Some food for thought:
http://www.tentonham...cation-requests

Also, as for the Clans, they will be changed. IDK exactly how, but when even the game line developers for Battletech say they pooched the Clan Tech in the first go, that should tell you something. Before I pronounce the Clans DOA, I'm going to wait, since pretty much everything else announced DOA since I started playing this game is working. (Well, except the poor Awesome, who for whatever reason,. remains unloved)

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 October 2013 - 09:35 AM.

[Odanan]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 08:44 AM, said:

Sorry, Odanan, if your put lost a little credibility there.

I was one of these who led the charge against 3pV and again with the original consumables plan and when they removed GenDis from the Forums. And I have frequently commented, and supported threads about how to improve the game. Things like proper Mech scaling, Fixing the Heat Scale(Through set threshhold, and effects at different heat levels), etc.

The problem a lot of those critiquing have seemed to miss, is that if you keep the volume cranked to 11 at all times, people tune you out as white noise eventually. If your generalities are inaccurate (such as accusing me of white-kniighting, aka always protecting PGI) your arguments as a whole, lose credibility.

Community complained about poptarting,
-cockpit shake implemented.

Community complains about uber energy boating, (and missile and ballistic)
-Ghost Heat implemented

Community complains PPC is not effective
- Damage buffed, damage scatter fix, heat reduced, projectile speed increased

People complain PPC now too effective
- Heat increased, projectile speed slowed down, standard ppc ineffective under 90 meters

Community complains about the pinpoint alpha sniping damage
-"sniper" Gauss mechanic added/PPC projectile slowed, to desync the two.

Community complains about ECM being OP
-Hard counters are added through BAP, TAG, PPC strikes, etc.

Kintaro CT SUCKS
-Fixed in hot patch.

Medium Mechs not effective enough
- Medium Mechs receive substantial agility buffs.

Sorry if it looked like I was accusing you of white knighting. That was not my intention.

You are right, they listened the community in some features. Not all were being improved tough, IMHO.

But one could make an equally big list of things they don't trouble to review, like the effectiveness of MGs, flamers, small lasers, pulse lasers in general, NARC, some chassis (like the Awesome and the Dragon) and variants (like the Stalker 4N). These are somewhat easy to tune, by changing some numbers. And I'm not even mentioning big things like 3rdPV, Heat Scale and Ghost Heat,

Oh, and you might be right about the white noise stuff. I will reflect about this and change my behavior.

[Bishop Steiner]

Odanan, on 25 October 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Sorry if it looked like I was accusing you of white knighting. That was not my intention.

You are right, they listened the community in some features. Not all were being improved tough, IMHO.

But one could make an equally big list of things they don't trouble to review, like the effectiveness of MGs, flamers, small lasers, pulse lasers in general, NARC, some chassis (like the Awesome and the Dragon) and variants (like the Stalker 4N). These are somewhat easy to tune, by changing some numbers. And I'm not even mentioning big things like 3rdPV, Heat Scale and Ghost Heat,

Oh, and you might be right about the white noise stuff. I will reflect about this and change my behavior.

And you list some good stuff that does need review. Flamers are {Scrap}. SPLAsers and LPLasers are too limited for their mass/heat.

But a few things, like MGs, are very effective, but again, not done in a way everybody likes (I happen to like them, could use a mild crit buff, maybe, but that is about it). Small lasers are quite good, as Jenner pilots like to regularly show my backside. NARC could use a health buff, but IMO, most people QQing about haven't used it in recent months. My team has frequently ninja'd other mechs with a narc beacon on the butt, then 3 LRM60 mechs opening fire on him whilst the little scout hides out of LoS.

etc, etc ,etc.

Some things are in definitive need of fixes, but what might seem high priority to us, is minor to them compared to other issues and bugs. And on a lot of things, we the community can't even agree if they are broken, and if so, how to fix them. I mean, everyone knows I'm a huge proponent of sized hard points. I feel it would help balance and minimize boating, while maintaining individual role and flavor for each chassis. Other people are against for various reasons (most of which I admittedly mentally translate to "I don't want my favorite 6 PPC boat nerfed!").

Shoot look at the SDR issue. Half the community refuse to acknowledge there is anything wrong with them and hit registration, even after the Devs admitted there was. (I wonder how many of the people saying they are fine pilot them, hmmmmm?)

So we get forum rage over inaccurate info, old problems that are either fixed, or comparatively minor, misunderstood mechanics, etc. And more than any, probably internet ego trips.

I just can't wait to see what happens when Star Citizen starts missing goals, having persistent bug issues, can't delivered 100% as promised (or perceived to be promised) etc. I haven't seen one long standing game of any sort that the forums are not full of rage, ya know?

So yeah man, there are legit issues, but too many times the posts on here become generalized "PGI Lied/Screwed everything up" when in fact, they have done a lot of things right, a few things head scratchingly, and a lot of things unresolved currently.

[Bishop Steiner]

and back on topic............

they're comiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing


Are you ready?

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 25 October 2013 - 04:38 PM, said:

and back on topic............

they're comiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing


Are you ready?

It's even accurate because most people probably won't use torso missiles hehe. I imagine the most common torso weapons on the Mad Kitteh will be Ultra 20s...

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 25 October 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

It's even accurate because most people probably won't use torso missiles hehe. I imagine the most common torso weapons on the Mad Kitteh will be Ultra 20s...

well, this one is lacking missiles cuz Pariah didn't want any on his miffedkitty.

Oddly, the missile racks on my PHX mechs have not really been an issue, contrary to my early expectations. Maybe these guys won?t, either.

As for me, I was just concerned about the fuselage and weapon pod scales, as too many otherwise great TW renders have had tiny, or oddly shaped Cockpits, even the one Alex did for Alpha Strike, the canopy just feels off to me.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 October 2013 - 04:56 PM.