20517 replies to this topic

[CDLord HHGD]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

It is rainbows and unicorns until they become teenagers...then real issues begin, lol

Congratulations, btw!

Oh God, teenager, mine is only five.... I think I might stroke out.....

[Ovion]

Odanan, on 25 November 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

It is an advantage, but not that much. We already accepted some better-than-regular heroes, like the Ember, Ilya and Pirate's Bane.
I'm willing to accept the Widowmaker, specially because it is a canon mech.

And because of this:

Isn't that spiffy.
My only thing with Clan Mech Heroes is... holy crap will they be expensive... even on sale they'll be crazy priced.

Even the one I'm most likely to get (Kit Fox) is going to be a significant investment, and if I wanted say, a Mad Dog or Dire Wolf hero...

Also - I'd argue the Pirate's Bane is equivalent to the other Locusts, rather than better.
The sacrifice in already limited firepower for the ECM balances it pretty well.

We'll see what happens when I eventually get an XL170 or 180 though...

[Cimarb]

Ovion, on 25 November 2014 - 11:49 AM, said:

Isn't that spiffy.
My only thing with Clan Mech Heroes is... holy crap will they be expensive... even on sale they'll be crazy priced.

Even the one I'm most likely to get (Kit Fox) is going to be a significant investment, and if I wanted say, a Mad Dog or Dire Wolf hero...

Clan Heroes, unless they make special rules for them, will be the same cost as IS Heroes, since it is based upon tonnage, not loadout. Champions, on the other hand, will be just as pricey as high-tech IS champions, if not a little higher.

The only time Clan mechs are abnormally inflated in price is in packages, and that is due to the higher demand of them (supposedly).

[Odanan]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Clan Heroes, unless they make special rules for them, will be the same cost as IS Heroes, since it is based upon tonnage, not loadout. Champions, on the other hand, will be just as pricey as high-tech IS champions, if not a little higher.

The only time Clan mechs are abnormally inflated in price is in packages, and that is due to the higher demand of them (supposedly).

I disagree with you, my friend.
They will be pricier because the mech itself is more expensive. That's the logic for the $30 dollars a mech in the pack, instead of $20.

[Cueca]

bring me, the Omega \o/

[Cimarb]

Odanan, on 25 November 2014 - 12:33 PM, said:

I disagree with you, my friend.
They will be pricier because the mech itself is more expensive. That's the logic for the $30 dollars a mech in the pack, instead of $20.

That is the justification for the package, yes, but not the reason.

For example, the Locust package is $20, the Battlemaster is also $20, the Mist Lynx is $30, and the Dire Wolf is $30. There is no association between package price and tonnage/loadout. There is only an arbitrary "package cost", which is 50% more for all Clan tiers because they know they can squeeze more out of us.

On the other hand, Hero mechs are 75 MC per ton, regardless of loadout, and Champion mechs (and all MC-bought standard mechs, actually) are priced dependent upon their cbill cost (I cannot remember the exact ratio, but it is something like 1 MC per 2,400 cbills).

[Bishop Steiner]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

That is the justification for the package, yes, but not the reason.

For example, the Locust package is $20, the Battlemaster is also $20, the Mist Lynx is $30, and the Dire Wolf is $30. There is no association between package price and tonnage/loadout. There is only an arbitrary "package cost", which is 50% more for all Clan tiers because they know they can squeeze more out of us.

On the other hand, Hero mechs are 75 MC per ton, regardless of loadout, and Champion mechs (and all MC-bought standard mechs, actually) are priced dependent upon their cbill cost (I cannot remember the exact ratio, but it is something like 1 MC per 2,400 cbills).

I wont be shocked though if they modify Clan Hero pricing to be 85-100mc per ton, TBH, since they will likely have the omni compatibility that IS ones do not get.

I fully expect the WidowMaker Direwolf to be 50$.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 25 November 2014 - 01:37 PM.

[Ovion]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 11:53 AM, said:

Spoiler

Clan Heroes, unless they make special rules for them, will be the same cost as IS Heroes, since it is based upon tonnage, not loadout. Champions, on the other hand, will be just as pricey as high-tech IS champions, if not a little higher.

The only time Clan mechs are abnormally inflated in price is in packages, and that is due to the higher demand of them (supposedly).

You say that.... but no...

The Clan packs are cheaper than the individual mechs (in MC), and the IS Hero mechs are cheaper than the regular Clan mechs (in MC):

Spoiler

Package cost - $30 (£19.10) or $55 (£35)
Price of each set of 3 Mechs doesn't include +900MC for 3 Mech Bays (value of $3.60 to $5 (£2.29 to £3.20)

Light
Mist Lynx (25t) 2000MC + 2000MC + 2000MC = 6000MC
IS Hero 1875MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $23.99 to $33.36 (£15.28 to £21.36)

Kit Fox (30t) 2380MC + 2405MC + 2340MC = 7125MC
IS Hero 2250MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $28.49 to $39.62 (£18.14 to £25.37)

Adder (35t) 2775MC + 2695MC + 2810MC = 8280MC
IS Hero 2625MC, est 135MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $33.10 to $46.04 (£21.08 to £29.48)

Medium
Ice Ferret (45t) 3500MC + 3500MC + 3500MC = 10500MC
IS Hero 3375MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $41.98 to $58.38 (£26.73 to £37.38)

Nova (50t) 3525MC + 3990MC + 3750MC = 11265MC
IS Hero 3750MC, est 5MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $45.04 to $62.63 (£28.68 to £40.10)

Stormcrow (55t) 4460MC + 4480MC + 4450MC = 13390MC
IS Hero 4125MC, est 338MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $53.53 to $74.45 (£34.09 to £47.67)

Heavy
Mad Dog (60t) 4750MC + 4750MC + 4750MC = 14250MC
IS Hero 4500MC, est 250MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $56.97 to $79.23 (£36.28 to £50.73)

Summoner (70t) 5630MC + 5560MC + 5630MC = 16820MC
IS Hero 5250MC, est 357MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $67.25 to $93.52 (£42.82 to £59.88)

Timber Wolf (75t) 6070MC + 6075MC + 5910MC = 18055MC
IS Hero 5625MC, est 393MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $72.18 to $100.39 (£45.97 to £64.28)

Assault
Gargoyle (80t) 6300MC + 6300MC + 6300MC = 18900MC
IS Hero 6000MC, est 300MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $75.56 to $105.08 (£48.12 to £67.28)

Warhawk (85t) 6330MC + 6125MC + 6465MC = 18920MC
IS Hero 6375MC, est 68MC more than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $75.64 to $105.20 (£48.17 to £67.36)

Dire Wolf (100t) 6860MC + 7140MC + 7115MC = 21115MC
IS Hero 7500MC, est 462MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $84.42 to $117.40 (£53.76 to £75.17)

The equation of Tonnage*75MC will need to change for Clan Hero mechs.

I'm thinking Tonnage*100MC or Tonnage*125MC is the most likely result.

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Spoiler

That is the justification for the package, yes, but not the reason.

For example, the Locust package is $20, the Battlemaster is also $20, the Mist Lynx is $30, and the Dire Wolf is $30. There is no association between package price and tonnage/loadout. There is only an arbitrary "package cost", which is 50% more for all Clan tiers because they know they can squeeze more out of us.

On the other hand, Hero mechs are 75 MC per ton, regardless of loadout, and Champion mechs (and all MC-bought standard mechs, actually) are priced dependent upon their cbill cost (I cannot remember the exact ratio, but it is something like 1 MC per 2,400 cbills).

The Champion formula from memory is something like MC of base *1.25?

Cueca, on 25 November 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

bring me, the Omega \o/

Goddam that's pretty.

Edited by Ovion, 25 November 2014 - 01:51 PM.

[Cimarb]

Ovion, on 25 November 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

You say that.... but no...

The Clan packs are cheaper than the individual mechs (in MC), and the IS Hero mechs are cheaper than the regular Clan mechs (in MC):

Spoiler

Package cost - $30 (£19.10) or $55 (£35)
Price of each set of 3 Mechs doesn't include +900MC for 3 Mech Bays (value of $3.60 to $5 (£2.29 to £3.20)

Light
Mist Lynx (25t) 2000MC + 2000MC + 2000MC = 6000MC
IS Hero 1875MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $23.99 to $33.36 (£15.28 to £21.36)

Kit Fox (30t) 2380MC + 2405MC + 2340MC = 7125MC
IS Hero 2250MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $28.49 to $39.62 (£18.14 to £25.37)

Adder (35t) 2775MC + 2695MC + 2810MC = 8280MC
IS Hero 2625MC, est 135MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $33.10 to $46.04 (£21.08 to £29.48)

Medium
Ice Ferret (45t) 3500MC + 3500MC + 3500MC = 10500MC
IS Hero 3375MC, est 125MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $41.98 to $58.38 (£26.73 to £37.38)

Nova (50t) 3525MC + 3990MC + 3750MC = 11265MC
IS Hero 3750MC, est 5MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $45.04 to $62.63 (£28.68 to £40.10)

Stormcrow (55t) 4460MC + 4480MC + 4450MC = 13390MC
IS Hero 4125MC, est 338MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $53.53 to $74.45 (£34.09 to £47.67)

Heavy
Mad Dog (60t) 4750MC + 4750MC + 4750MC = 14250MC
IS Hero 4500MC, est 250MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $56.97 to $79.23 (£36.28 to £50.73)

Summoner (70t) 5630MC + 5560MC + 5630MC = 16820MC
IS Hero 5250MC, est 357MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $67.25 to $93.52 (£42.82 to £59.88)

Timber Wolf (75t) 6070MC + 6075MC + 5910MC = 18055MC
IS Hero 5625MC, est 393MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $72.18 to $100.39 (£45.97 to £64.28)

Assault
Gargoyle (80t) 6300MC + 6300MC + 6300MC = 18900MC
IS Hero 6000MC, est 300MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $75.56 to $105.08 (£48.12 to £67.28)

Warhawk (85t) 6330MC + 6125MC + 6465MC = 18920MC
IS Hero 6375MC, est 68MC more than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $75.64 to $105.20 (£48.17 to £67.36)

Dire Wolf (100t) 6860MC + 7140MC + 7115MC = 21115MC
IS Hero 7500MC, est 462MC less than regular variant
Price of 3 Standard Mechs $84.42 to $117.40 (£53.76 to £75.17)

The equation of Tonnage*75MC will need to change for Clan Hero mechs.

I'm thinking Tonnage*100MC or Tonnage*125MC is the most likely result.

I am not sure what you are meaning. The packages are static by tier - the cost does not change regardless of which tier you are moving up to. The value that you are getting out of the package contents means nothing in this regard.

While I do not doubt that PGI will increase the cost of Clan heroes, there is no "need" to do it, other than greed.

The only possible excuse for doing so would be if they allowed the Hero camo pattern to work with any omnipod combination (hence much more work involved) and the Hero variant pods had unique geo compatible with all existing camos.

[Ovion]

It's hardly a greedy cash grab.
This is how they make their money.
They need to keep it relative.

If you look at say, the Locust pack, say, sure you're looking at 3 Locusts, inc 1 Hero and 3 Mechbays (I forget if it had anything else as I missed it ), but that's 3715MC of stuff, or $14.86 to $20.66 (£9.45 to £13.22) value, for a $20 package.

But as you scale up they even out, making the whole thing more expensive, but a better deal the more you spend.
And this is all relative to the base cost.

So with the clan mechs, you call it an 'arbitrary increase', but it simply follows the same formula for relative value, as shown above.

Hell, it's a better relative deal with the Clan packs because of all the extras they come with.

And while in some ways it's arbitrary, and while I think things should in a lot of ways be cheaper, you have to remember what is behind each price, and it will have a projected overhead, expected sales and a real cost to create.

Cost of renting the office, paying the staff, server upkeep and maintainence, etc, as well as the need to make a profit and continue to grow.

It's striking the balance between reasonable cost and reasonable profit is always tricky.
And honestly, since getting a proper job, and looking at other games, the prices while still high (for what it is), it's cheaper relative to the other properties.

I'd be curious to see how well PGI is doing as a business actually, and how well the model is working out.

[CDLord HHGD]

Ovion, on 25 November 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

I'd be curious to see how well PGI is doing as a business actually, and how well the model is working out.

Not sure how it works in Canada, but down here businesses have to report their earnings and in many cases, it's public record... I don't care personally, but if one wants to go digging.....

[Bishop Steiner]

cdlord, on 25 November 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Not sure how it works in Canada, but down here businesses have to report their earnings and in many cases, it's public record... I don't care personally, but if one wants to go digging.....

what's not public record, I don' think is how much profit a private business earns?

[Ovion]

cdlord, on 25 November 2014 - 02:52 PM, said:

Not sure how it works in Canada, but down here businesses have to report their earnings and in many cases, it's public record... I don't care personally, but if one wants to go digging.....

Business records are publicly available yes, for a fee (generally processing + access fee) most all companies public records are available.

This will generally include details on the company’s incorporation, company accounts, annual returns, director/secretary appointments and shareholder information. (I hold a company myself even if currently dormant, it's interesting how much of my life is likely available if you know where to look).

I'm idly curious, but not willing to pay xD

Edited by Ovion, 25 November 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Cimarb]

Ovion, on 25 November 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:

It's hardly a greedy cash grab.
This is how they make their money.
They need to keep it relative.

If you look at say, the Locust pack, say, sure you're looking at 3 Locusts, inc 1 Hero and 3 Mechbays (I forget if it had anything else as I missed it ), but that's 3715MC of stuff, or $14.86 to $20.66 (£9.45 to £13.22) value, for a $20 package.

But as you scale up they even out, making the whole thing more expensive, but a better deal the more you spend.
And this is all relative to the base cost.

So with the clan mechs, you call it an 'arbitrary increase', but it simply follows the same formula for relative value, as shown above.

Hell, it's a better relative deal with the Clan packs because of all the extras they come with.

And while in some ways it's arbitrary, and while I think things should in a lot of ways be cheaper, you have to remember what is behind each price, and it will have a projected overhead, expected sales and a real cost to create.

Cost of renting the office, paying the staff, server upkeep and maintainence, etc, as well as the need to make a profit and continue to grow.

It's striking the balance between reasonable cost and reasonable profit is always tricky.
And honestly, since getting a proper job, and looking at other games, the prices while still high (for what it is), it's cheaper relative to the other properties.

I'd be curious to see how well PGI is doing as a business actually, and how well the model is working out.

I have argued that exact same side for months. I get it.

Eventually, you will realize that you are wrong, though.

I am not saying it is wrong to pay the bills. I have zero problem with their pricing, even if it is expensive, as they have to make a profit to stay in business and we are obviously willing to pay it!

The difference between "tier x" of the IS pack, and "tier x" of the Clan pack, though, is a 50% increase. What is in the tier makes zero difference, as every tier is the same cost within the package.

For instance, the Locust (Tier 1: $20 over the previous tier 0), and the Battlemaster (Tier 4: $20 over the previous tier 3). The Locust costs exactly the same as the much heavier and vastly more expensive in game Battlemaster.

As another example, the Kit Fox (Tier 1: $30 over the previous tier 0), and the Dire Wolf (Tier 4: $30 over the previous tier 3). The Kit Fox, again, costs exactly the same as the much heavier and vastly more expensive in game Dire Wolf.

You cannot say "but the Clan packs have more in them" to justify a 50% increase in cost, when the higher package tiers have more in them at the exact same cost as lower tiers. Either it should get exponentially more expensive (which is dumb) or the packs should cost the same regardless of faction.

The problem is we are willing to pay the additional cost, apparently. I actually wish they would increase the cost of the IS packs to $30, so you would maybe understand the issue some of us have with it...

[AntiCitizenJuan]

Thinking of picking up a Commando, but the need to be faster than the other lights sort of leaves the thing undergunned.

Anyone have any recommendations?

[Cimarb]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 25 November 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

Thinking of picking up a Commando, but the need to be faster than the other lights sort of leaves the thing undergunned.

Anyone have any recommendations?

You do not NEED to be faster, but if you choose to be faster, being "undergunned" does not matter as much. A Jenner with 6 MLs is much more effective than a Dire Wolf with (only) 6 MLs, for instance.

[CDLord HHGD]

Ovion, on 25 November 2014 - 03:08 PM, said:

I'm idly curious, but not willing to pay xD

Maybe we should have asked for this with the Founder's pack.... j/k

[MightyBolamite]

I think I read someone say something to the effect of 'Stingers and Wasps were LAMs before they were Mechs'.
Blew. My. Mind.
I thought LAMs were something they (BT creators) tacked on after creating the Mechs. Like a mod or something.
I... I need to have a sit and rethink my life.

[Cimarb]

MightyBolamite, on 25 November 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I think I read someone say something to the effect of 'Stingers and Wasps were LAMs before they were Mechs'.
Blew. My. Mind.
I thought LAMs were something they (BT creators) tacked on after creating the Mechs. Like a mod or something.
I... I need to have a sit and rethink my life.

They were "LAMs" first in that they were in Robotech/Macross before Battletech. That is why they have the fighter-jet look to their torsos.

[Ovion]

Cimarb, on 25 November 2014 - 06:02 PM, said:

For instance, the Locust (Tier 1: $20 over the previous tier 0), and the Battlemaster (Tier 4: $20 over the previous tier 3). The Locust costs exactly the same as the much heavier and vastly more expensive in game Battlemaster.

As another example, the Kit Fox (Tier 1: $30 over the previous tier 0), and the Dire Wolf (Tier 4: $30 over the previous tier 3). The Kit Fox, again, costs exactly the same as the much heavier and vastly more expensive in game Dire Wolf.

You cannot say "but the Clan packs have more in them" to justify a 50% increase in cost, when the higher package tiers have more in them at the exact same cost as lower tiers. Either it should get exponentially more expensive (which is dumb) or the packs should cost the same regardless of faction.

The problem is we are willing to pay the additional cost, apparently. I actually wish they would increase the cost of the IS packs to $30, so you would maybe understand the issue some of us have with it...

See, that's the thing isn't it.

While each tier is $30, the Kit Fox / Mist Lynx ones have around $30+ of stuff in it (relative to the game.

To get the Direwolf, yes, it's $30 for that tier, but you have to have spent $210 already to get it. Effectively, a bulk discount. (And 90 for the Man o' War thing), making the price actual $240 (and $120 respectively).

This is acceptable relative to the standard cost as set by the game.

Putting it down to $20 a tier would make them a much better price I agree, but would then torpedo the economy they have put in place.

The IS packs (Locust, Panther) have $20+ worth of stuff, and again, it's $20 for the mech, but you have to have already spent $60, making the cost to get the big ones $80.
And I'm not saying 'the clan packs have more in' to justify it (hell, the new IS ones do too), that's simply pointing out, we are at least getting more for our money than in previous packs.

My point is, that the packs makesense in regards to pricing set by the game.

The Clan Mechs are roughly 50% more expensive than their IS counterparts in game (due to the inclusion of XL+ engines and upgrades on any given mech), therefore it makes sense to me for the Clan packs 50% more expensive than than the IS packs, rather than arbitrary.