20517 replies to this topic

[Pariah Devalis]

Karl Streiger, on 11 April 2016 - 04:21 AM, said:

better option as the Viper for sure.

Better? Ehhh. Different? Sure. Mongrel is like a compromise mech. 13.5 tons of pod space, moves quick enough, plenty of hardpoints. It is five tons heavier, and not nearly as fast as the Viper, however, and one would expect the Viper to be a smaller target. Basically a slightly inferior Shadow Cat (in regards to mech height - SHC is squat while Mongrel is tall), top speed due to no MASC, an extra unnecessary JJ, no ECM, and 2.5 tons lower total pod space, with more and better hardpoints.

It still burns me up that the Shadow Cat is an absolutely ideal 45 ton platform in the physical design, pod space, mobility, and utility aspect, but because PGI refuses to give it any sort of hardpoint inflation or invent an energy based left torso omnipod the mech is pigeonholed so strongly into the role of "long range tickle stick," because if you try and brawl with it you're better off with an Ice Ferret. :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

Better? Ehhh. Different? Sure. Mongrel is like a compromise mech.

OK i admit I'm biased when it comes to Clan Mediums.

I'm a huge fan of the Mongrel since i saw him for the first time:


And the Stooping Hawk- well my wife is a big fan of this Mech..

[Metus regem]

Karl, I actually got an answer in another thread about why people like the Black Lanner, in the MW4 MekTek version it had a 360 degree torso twist, something it's not going to have here, once it show up and people see how limited it really is, I expect so much salt, that there will not be enough popcorn in the world for it all.

[TheArisen]

Odanan, on 11 April 2016 - 03:18 AM, said:

The heavy weight is really obvious: Night Gyr and Linebacker.

About the medium, Huntsman would be an alternative, but I think the second one will be the Black Lanner, due to it's popularity. It was the most voted medium in the omnimech pool.

So, the Turkina. We can't say it will be inferior to the Dire Wolf in everything. Sure, it will have less guns, but it could have better hardpoints (it has a profile more like the King Crab) and quirks (specially mobility and structure ones, since PGI doesn't like to heavily quirk Clan weapons).

I have to agree about the Blanner. It's not going to be very good but it has fans. The Huntsman would be the best choice but it doesn't have as big a fan base.

[Odanan]

Will Hawker, on 11 April 2016 - 04:19 AM, said:

Grendel for the Medium?

Hmmm the Mongrel (Grendel)...

45 tons, 118.8 km/h (without speed tweak), 7 locked jumpjets, 10 internal DHS, 13 tons of pod space (with full armor), FF, ES.

Prime:
LA 2e
LT
CT
H 1e
RT 1m
RA 2e

A:
LA
LT 1m
CT
H
RT 1m
RA 2e

B:
LA 1e
LT
CT
H
RT 1e
RA 1e, 1b

C:
LA 1e
LT ams
CT
H
RT
RA 1b

D:
LA 2e
LT 1m
CT
H
RT 1e
RA 1e

Honestly? it's not that good... you can do 5 lasers + 2 missiles, but the mech has worst hardpoints than the Huntsman (it is faster and more mobile, though). Here are analysis of the Black Lanner and the Huntsman, for comparison:

Spoiler

Odanan, on 15 January 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Black Lanner
55 tons, 127.71 km/h, reaching 147.50 with MASC, Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous

Black Lanner Prime:
LA 2e
LT 1m
CT MASC
H ECM
RT 1m
RA 1e

Black Lanner A:
LA 2e
LT 1e
CT MASC
H ECM
RT
RA 1e

Black Lanner B:
LA 1m
LT
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 1m

Black Lanner C:
LA 6e
LT
CT MASC
H
RT
RA 1m

Black Lanner D:
LA 2b, 1e
LT 1m, 1e
CT MASC
H
RT 1m
RA 2b, 1e

Odanan, on 01 January 2015 - 03:49 AM, said:

Huntsman (IS name: Nobori-nin = "Bannerman")
50 tons
Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, 5 jumpjets, 86.4 km/h

-------
Primary

RA 2e, 1b
RT 1m
CT
H
LT 2e, 1ams
LA 2e, 1m

-------
Alt A

RA 1b
RT
CT
H
LT
LA 1e, 1m

-------
Alt B

RA 3e
RT 2b
CT
H
LT
LA 1b

-------
Alt C

RA 1m
RT 1e, 1m
CT
H
LT 2e, 1m
LA 1b

The great problem with the Clan mediums is that everything PGI adds next will be compared with the terrific Stormcrow (which it's not perfect only because of no jump jets or ECM).

[Pariah Devalis]

Karl Streiger, on 11 April 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

OK i admit I'm biased when it comes to Clan Mediums.

I'm a huge fan of the Mongrel since i saw him for the first time:


And the Stooping Hawk- well my wife is a big fan of this Mech..

Ey, both would be solid additions I would like to see.

Small deviation, but it is on topic I assure you:

Back waaay before the Clans were released, I had wanted to see much tighter engine restrictions on mechs when customizing them to force mechs into their designated roles. A speedboat will never be a cruise liner, and an AWACS will never be a jet fighter. Etc, etc. You could modify the hell out of something, but there are always limitations to what you could do. As such, mechs like the Raven, for example, being designed for EWAR and support functions while staying with the team itself never made sense to me that they could be up-engined to the point that they could roam the battlefield as fast scouts, interceptors, etc.

However, these tighter chassis role specific purposes never were implemented. Because of this, so many mechs could be made into various other roles. Jobs they were never designed to do. Pissing away a chance at some sort of role warfare. In come the Clans and Omnimechs.

Here we have mechs with fixed engines and fixed maximum amounts of free space. The trade off was to be flexibility in hardpoint options. However, a mech with a small engine was always going to be slow, a mech with a big engine was always going to be fast, and a mech with a moderately sized engine was always going to be the most flexible of them all - but only so long as it had the hardpoint options available to cater to those optional roles. The "good" omnis ended up being those that had an engine size that didn't unduly impact pod space for the weight while providing ample mobility. They were considered flexible enough to be made to fit any role the pilot really wanted them to do.

The mechs on either extreme, however, with either huge or small engines, were left specialized. I still don't think mech specialization per role is a bad idea, whatsoever. However I find it interesting that because of the prevalence of jack of all trades and masters of most mechs, any chassis that is so strongly limited to one specific playstyle is not ideal given the current environment. So we have mechs like the Stormcrow, or the Hunchback IIC (when taken across all variants), or the Huntsman (if they ever release it) which are jacks of all trades. Then you have them compete against mechs like the Viper, which is pigeonholed into a superscout role, or the Ice Ferret, which is better off only as a quick striker, or the Shadow Cat, which is best only as a long range poker. The hyperspecialization makes them limited, and as such not as good as the other options available.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 05:04 AM.

[Metus regem]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

Ey, both would be solid additions I would like to see.

Small deviation, but it is on topic I assure you:

Back waaay before the Clans were released, I had wanted to see much tighter engine restrictions on mechs when customizing them to force mechs into their designated roles. A speedboat will never be a cruise liner, and an AWACS will never be a jet fighter. Etc, etc. You could modify the hell out of something, but there are always limitations to what you could do. As such, mechs like the Raven, for example, being designed for EWAR and support functions while staying with the team itself never made sense to me that they could be up-engined to the point that they could roam the battlefield as fast scouts, interceptors, etc.

However, these tighter chassis role specific purposes never were implemented. Because of this, so many mechs could be made into various other roles. Jobs they were never designed to do. Pissing away a chance at some sort of role warfare. In come the Clans and Omnimechs.

Here we have mechs with fixed engines and fixed maximum amounts of free space. The trade off was to be flexibility in hardpoint options. However, a mech with a small engine was always going to be slow, a mech with a big engine was always going to be fast, and a mech with a moderately sized engine was always going to be the most flexible of them all - but only so long as it had the hardpoint options available to cater to those optional roles. The "good" omnis ended up being those that had an engine size that didn't unduly impact pod space for the weight while providing ample mobility. They were considered flexible enough to be made to fit any role the pilot really wanted them to do.

The mechs on either extreme, however, with either huge or small engines, were left specialized. I still don't think mech specialization per role is a bad idea, whatsoever. However I find it interesting that because of the prevalence of jack of all trades and masters of most mechs, any chassis that is so strongly limited to one specific playstyle is not ideal given the current environment. So we have mechs like the Stormcrow, or the Hunchback IIC (when taken across all variants), or the Huntsman (if they ever release it) which are jacks of all trades. Then you have them compete against mechs like the Viper, which is pigeonholed into a superscout role, or the Ice Ferret, which is better off only as a quick striker, or the Shadow Cat, which is best only as a long range poker. The hyperspecialization makes them limited, and as such not as good as the other options available.

Part of that problem is also tied with many small guns are better than one big gun. This problem in compound by the fact of how PGI chose to handle internal equipment, giving them hit points, rather than critical locations really hurts weapons that were crit speakers in TT: Cluster shot LB's, SRM's, small and medium lasers, LRM's, small pulse lasers and MG's.

[Odanan]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

Karl, I actually got an answer in another thread about why people like the Black Lanner, in the MW4 MekTek version it had a 360 degree torso twist, something it's not going to have here, once it show up and people see how limited it really is, I expect so much salt, that there will not be enough popcorn in the world for it all.

The Black Lanner has good modules, just not much tonnage to play around. People knew this mech even before MW4, you know...

With full armor, you can do something like this:
LA [alt C] 6 er small lasers
LT [prime] SRM6
CT [locked MASC]
H [prime] ECM
RT [prime] SRM6
RA [alt B] SRM6

PS: and maybe PGI does it with a brutal torso twist (not 360º, because that belongs to UrbanMech). That would appease the MW4 fans, I guess.

Edited by Odanan, 11 April 2016 - 05:24 AM.

[Pariah Devalis]

Odanan, on 11 April 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

The Black Lanner has good modules, just not much tonnage to play around. People know this mech even before MW4, you know...

With full armor, you can do something like this:
LA (alt C) 6 er small lasers
LT (prime) SRM6
CT [locked MASC]
H (prime) ECM
RT (prime) SRM6
RA (alt SRM6

PS: and maybe PGI does it with a brutal torso twist (not 360º, because that belongs to UrbanMech).

6 ERSLas and 3 SRM4, but only 2 tons of ammo and no additional DHS. Or ECM....... It's pretty badly under armored. :\

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 05:25 AM.

[Metus regem]

Odanan, on 11 April 2016 - 05:18 AM, said:

The Black Lanner has good modules, just not much tonnage to play around. People knew this mech even before MW4, you know...

With full armor, you can do something like this:
LA [alt C] 6 er small lasers
LT [prime] SRM6
CT [locked MASC]
H [prime] ECM
RT [prime] SRM6
RA [alt B] SRM6

PS: and maybe PGI does it with a brutal torso twist (not 360º, because that belongs to UrbanMech). That would appease the MW4 fans, I guess.

I do know that.. It just never impressed me in TT, yes it was fast, yes it could generate some decent defensive numbers, but I found I could use lighter mechs for less BV that could do the same job for less investment, meaning I could bring heavier hitters.

[Karl Streiger]

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

I do know that.. It just never impressed me in TT, yes it was fast, yes it could generate some decent defensive numbers, but I found I could use lighter mechs for less BV that could do the same job for less investment, meaning I could bring heavier hitters.

The advantage in TT was its ability to kick in with MASC and surprise an enemy that doesn't know its full potential - ok it was a unique and lucky action were my Black Lanner with ATM 12 killed a heavy Mech.

Metus regem, on 11 April 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

Part of that problem is also tied with many small guns are better than one big gun.

so much this - dunno what if smaller guns damage is reduced by a larger margin in exchange for much higher rate of fire.
say for example the Medium Laser would have a cool down of 1.75sec and a burn duration of 0.5sec, with just 2.88dmg this would keep the dps but would reduce its ability to burn through a mechs armor with just one volley.

[Pariah Devalis]

Karl Streiger, on 11 April 2016 - 05:56 AM, said:

The advantage in TT was its ability to kick in with MASC and surprise an enemy that doesn't know its full potential - ok it was a unique and lucky action were my Black Lanner with ATM 12 killed a heavy Mech.


so much this - dunno what if smaller guns damage is reduced by a larger margin in exchange for much higher rate of fire.
say for example the Medium Laser would have a cool down of 1.75sec and a burn duration of 0.5sec, with just 2.88dmg this would keep the dps but would reduce its ability to burn through a mechs armor with just one volley.

What if the more of a given weapon you fire at once, the longer the duration or the lower the damage output per gun? So one ERMLas is 7 damage, two is 6.75 damage per, three is 6.5 damage per, etc. The more you fire at once, the lower the returns? A sort of power draw system that directly impacts the weapon output, rather than the heat return.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 06:01 AM.

[Odanan]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 05:23 AM, said:

6 ERSLas and 3 SRM4, but only 2 tons of ammo and no additional DHS. Or ECM....... It's pretty badly under armored. :\

3 tons of ammo and ECM. Full armor.

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

What if the more of a given weapon you fire at once, the longer the duration or the lower the damage output per gun? So one ERMLas is 7 damage, two is 6.75 damage per, three is 6.5 damage per, etc. The more you fire at once, the lower the returns? A sort of power draw system that directly impacts the weapon output, rather than the heat return.

That's an interesting idea that actually makes sense and effectively nerfs the alpha strikes.

[Pariah Devalis]

Odanan, on 11 April 2016 - 06:08 AM, said:

3 tons of ammo and ECM. Full armor.

Assuming stock armor, sure. It is about 2 tons under-armored when I poke with it in megameklab. 13 DHS total, with 3 hardwired. I donno. I could be borking it somehow, but I'm on a bit of a rush right now so can't triple check.

Edit: There's my issue. It doesn't have the 13 DHS. Just 10.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 11 April 2016 - 06:18 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 06:00 AM, said:

What if the more of a given weapon you fire at once, the longer the duration or the lower the damage output per gun? So one ERMLas is 7 damage, two is 6.75 damage per, three is 6.5 damage per, etc. The more you fire at once, the lower the returns? A sort of power draw system that directly impacts the weapon output, rather than the heat return.

i take what is necessary to restore the advantage of a single bigger gun over a array of smaller ones.
One of those things MWLL seems to have done right

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 April 2016 - 06:41 AM.

[Richard Hazen]

What about a Glass Spider (Galahad) for the next heavy mech?

[Bishop Steiner]

Will Hawker, on 11 April 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

What about a Glass Spider (Galahad) for the next heavy mech?

rather see the rifleman IIC, grizzly or thresher. Well, even the very undergunned crossbow, TBH.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 11 April 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Odanan]

Will Hawker, on 11 April 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

What about a Glass Spider (Galahad) for the next heavy mech?

It's a battlemech, so there will be hardpoint inflation on those ballistic arms. Still, I would prefer the Rifleman IIC 2 (which has a much greater chance to feature in the game, because it's a "classic").

BTW, I saw they changed the Galahad's art in Sarna.

Was this: (similar to the Rifleman IIC)

It's now this:

[Karl Streiger]

No no the Glasspider still exists - but as an Unsee with different design.
The hegemony galahad would be terrible with just an engine cap of 215 but maybe Bish would start another crusade to increase its cap like he did for the BH2

[Tordin]

Pariah Devalis, on 11 April 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

It still burns me up that the Shadow Cat is an absolutely ideal 45 ton platform in the physical design, pod space, mobility, and utility aspect, but because PGI refuses to give it any sort of hardpoint inflation or invent an energy based left torso omnipod the mech is pigeonholed so strongly into the role of "long range tickle stick," because if you try and brawl with it you're better off with an Ice Ferret. :\

Agreed. And didnt there exist one variant with Missile harpoints for left torso to? Yeah I want the one shown in the MW 4 vengeance trailer, seems it had two missile harpoints at least in the side torsos, canon or not

Ayway. Werent it this week Russ would reveal an upcoming IS mech?

I would like to know before the end of April, so I can decide if I'll go with the Viper, Kodiak, OR the old ala carte Daishi choices... sigh.

Edited by Tordin, 11 April 2016 - 10:07 AM.