20517 replies to this topic

[Adridos]

FLG 01, on 25 August 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

MW:4-nostalgia is strangeling all creativity in this BattleTech-game, and ironically it is very much against the spirit of MW:4 which dared to explore new worlds. MW:4 did not exclude the Fafnir because it was not on a previous game; it did not exclude the Mad Cat MKII because it was not in a previous game. And so on.

Well, there's always the fact that no previous MW game used Mad Cat MKII simply because it was MW4 that created the mech.
Microsoft created a heap-load of mechs for the game and game alone. At least in Vengeance's case.

Spoiler

That is: Argus, Osiris, Chimera, Hellspawn, Uziel, Thanatos and Mad Cat MKII are all MW4 originals.

It was because Microsoft was simply making a sequel to the Mechwarrior franchise, they weren't in it to milk nostalgia or re-imagine old board games none of the players knew anything about. They were just making a game and a good game needs good looking robots in it. The audience for MW:O is simply diametrically different and couldn't care less about Alex's originals.

[Odanan]

Adridos, on 26 August 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Well, there's always the fact that no previous MW game used Mad Cat MKII simply because it was MW4 that created the mech.
Microsoft created a heap-load of mechs for the game and game alone. At least in Vengeance's case.

Spoiler

That is: Argus, Osiris, Chimera, Hellspawn, Uziel, Thanatos and Mad Cat MKII are all MW4 originals.

It was because Microsoft was simply making a sequel to the Mechwarrior franchise, they weren't in it to milk nostalgia or re-imagine old board games none of the players knew anything about. They were just making a game and a good game needs good looking robots in it. The audience for MW:O is simply diametrically different and couldn't care less about Alex's originals.

Microsoft did a lot of mistakes with MW4 and despite all that, the game was a success BECAUSE of the Battletech community, who eagerly consumes anything related with the IP. Sure, MW4 was the first Battletech/Mechwarrior game for many people, but it would be better if they conciliated the TT crowd with the new generation, in the first place.

But that's what MWO is doing right now: uniting all Battletech/Mechwarrior designs into a single universe, by putting in the same battlefield old TT classics (including the anciente Unseen), old MW2/3 mechs and this year MW4 mechs.

Alex's concepts are masterpieces (99% of them). Even the TT Battletech recent products are heavily inspired by his work. See this new Stalker mini (compared to the old one):

I dare to say Alex Iglesias' influence in Battletech will linger forever.

One thing he proved is: you don't need to "create brand new robots" to get cool, impressive stuff.

PS: welcome back, Adridos! You've been away of this thread what? 1 or 2 years?

Edited by Odanan, 26 August 2017 - 05:41 AM.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 26 August 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

But that's what MWO is doing right now: uniting all Battletech/Mechwarrior designs into a single universe, by putting in the same battlefield old TT classics (including the anciente Unseen), old MW2/3 mechs and this year MW4 mechs.

It's all a single universe anyway: BattleTech. It even reads "MWO. A BattleTech Game".
All MechWarrior titles draw from this universe.

What MWO is - or was? - good at is using this universe to its fullest, enjoying the multitude of sources, and the diversity of Mechs. Undying classics like the Atlas stand side by side with perhaps less well known Mechs like Night Gyr or Huntsman (both of which arguably are no longer "less well known"). I love it.

I am afraid are about to lose this wonderful aspect of MWO.

Adridos, on 26 August 2017 - 05:01 AM, said:

Well, there's always the fact that no previous MW game used Mad Cat MKII simply because it was MW4 that created the mech.

I know. And I did not care about that element of novelty back then, and I care even less now (even though it has to be noted the MW:4 designs were introduced to the canon and given RS the very same year). I don't hate any of them, I just don't put them on a pedestal.

But then there is other Mech I named as an example, the Fafnir. I could have said Nova Cat, Templar or Hauptmann too. Those Mechs were also in MW:4 and made their MechWarrior debut. They were just too important to ignore, because MS was making a FCCW-centered BattleTech game.

And that's what's important to me, plus the fact that we have to care for a Mech's performance in the P2P environment of MWO too. A Mech that is irrelevant in the lore and bad in MWO is just an overall poor choice - MW:4 origins or not.
The Uziel is not mentioned in a FCCW-story, it is absent from the (many) RATs of that era, and it fails in MWO. And since I don't put it on a pedestal or excuse its many failings because it was in MW:4 I can't help but to critize this horrible choice.

[Adridos]

Odanan, on 26 August 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

One thing he proved is: you don't need to "create brand new robots" to get cool, impressive stuff.

I wouldn't say that. Well, at least Catalyst wouldn't considering a lot of his redesigns ended up being Mark N+1 machines in real Battletech instead of replacing the old ones.

Battletech itself is a very design-hungry setting, imho. A redesign gets recognition by being made into one or more new mechs, not re-imagining the old ones. Case in point, the thing you posted isn't a Stalker but Stalker II. A clear-cut redesign that is instead turned into a brand new copy of a Stalker. Or they get turned into something different, like MW:O Victor -> BT Lu Wei Bing, MW Battlemaster -> Griffin IIC and so on.

Odanan, on 26 August 2017 - 05:41 AM, said:

PS: welcome back, Adridos! You've been away of this thread what? 1 or 2 years?

It would be longer than that. I'm just keeping tabs on the community from time to time and the recent HG shenanigans sparked my interest enough to drop by and post a bit.

[Odanan]

1 week (or less) for the Hellspawn!

[FLG 01]

Ja, hooray.
If there's one thing the IS desperately needs, it's more mediocre medium Mechs. Don't have enough of those.

[The Lighthouse]

Since last mech is Thanatos, I think we will see a Clan mech this time. Should be either medium or light mech....

[Odanan]

The Lighthouse, on 28 August 2017 - 08:51 AM, said:

Since last mech is Thanatos, I think we will see a Clan mech this time. Should be either medium or light mech....

According to the Roadmap posted last week:

InnerSphereNews, on 21 August 2017 - 04:49 PM, said:

Upcoming 'Mechs
• Unannounced Inner Sphere Medium
• Unannounced Clan Light
• Unannounced Clan Medium

[The Lighthouse]

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

According to the Roadmap posted last week:

I was about to say "It is an alphabetical order", then I realized "C" comes first.

Very interesting. So based on the poll... highly probable it will be either Chimera or Hellspawn both from MW4.

Well, either option should be good, though I'd really like to see Sha Yu, which was one of my favorites from Mech Commander 2. It has that Stealth Armor as a stock option.

[Valdarion Silarius]

FLG 01, on 25 August 2017 - 07:14 PM, said:

Or anything that has an importance beyond having been featured in MW:4. It's already getting old, it does not help the IS in MWO, it does not represent the lore.

At this point I have to vote with my vallet: no MW:4 Mech unless it is actually too important otherwise (think Fafnir or Templar; or Nova Cat to name a soon to be released Mech).
MW:4-nostalgia is strangeling all creativity in this BattleTech-game, and ironically it is very much against the spirit of MW:4 which dared to explore new worlds. MW:4 did not exclude the Fafnir because it was not on a previous game; it did not exclude the Mad Cat MKII because it was not in a previous game. And so on.

A fan of that game should honour its spirit, not turn MWO into MW:4-reloaded.

Agreed. I have a feeling that 2018 is going to be a majority of flooding of MW:4 mechs and IS Omnimechs unfortunately. It might be a good time to take a long break from the game. At least give some of the mechs outside the MW:4 bracket a chance like the Toyama.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

If there's one thing the IS desperately needs, it's more mediocre medium Mechs. Don't have enough of those.

They needed to make Vindicators feel wanted.

[Requiemking]

The Lighthouse, on 28 August 2017 - 09:07 AM, said:

I was about to say "It is an alphabetical order", then I realized "C" comes first.

Very interesting. So based on the poll... highly probable it will be either Chimera or Hellspawn both from MW4.

Well, either option should be good, though I'd really like to see Sha Yu, which was one of my favorites from Mech Commander 2. It has that Stealth Armor as a stock option.

The Sha Yu is a really cool mech. Especially since, according to Sarna, Sha Yu translates to "Shark", which would be quite fun to kill off Clan Diamond Shark warriors with a mech named Shark. Especially if you kill one while he is piloting that insufferable knockoff....

Edited by Requiemking, 28 August 2017 - 12:07 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

Requiemking, on 28 August 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

The Sha Yu is a really cool mech. Especially since, according to Sarna, Sha Yu translates to "Shark", which would be quite fun to kill of Clan Diamond Shark warriors with a mech named Shark. Especially if you kill one while he is piloting that insufferable knockoff....

Indeed.

Actually, my top picks are Enfield and Men Shen for mediums. But the chance of these mechs being ported is regrettably low... So my third Sha Yu, actually has several elements that are port worthy.

[Requiemking]

The Lighthouse, on 28 August 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Indeed.

Actually, my top picks are Enfield and Men Shen for mediums. But the chance of these mechs being ported is regrettably low... So my third Sha Yu, actually has several elements that are port worthy.

There is also the Chameleon, which actually wouldn't be that bad in MWO. It could replace the Thunderbolt in the tutorial(as the Chameleon was designed to be a training mech in the lore), and it could easily be a decent first mech.

[Odanan]

The Lighthouse, on 28 August 2017 - 12:07 PM, said:

Indeed.

Actually, my top picks are Enfield and Men Shen for mediums. But the chance of these mechs being ported is regrettably low... So my third Sha Yu, actually has several elements that are port worthy.

Men Shen is the most likely IS omnimech to be included, so... it will come in 2018 for sure.

[FLG 01]

Requiemking, on 28 August 2017 - 12:02 PM, said:

The Sha Yu is a really cool mech. Especially since, according to Sarna, Sha Yu translates to "Shark", which would be quite fun to kill off Clan Diamond Shark warriors with a mech named Shark. Especially if you kill one while he is piloting that insufferable knockoff....

Personally I think it is more interesting that the addition of this Mech would serve to illustrate the diversity of the BattleTech universe. I am not a fan of the Capellans but they developed some fine Mechs during the 50ies and 60ies, and it would be a shame to ignore them.
(And we got a lot of FedCom Mechs recently. But there are also the Kapteyn powers, the Periphery powers, and - of course - ComStar and WoB).

Moreover the Sha Yu would be quite good. Not a game changer, but nice enough. And indefinitely superior to, say, a Chimera...
Also I really liked the Mech when I first saw it:

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 02:54 PM, said:

Men Shen is the most likely IS omnimech to be included, so... it will come in 2018 for sure.

I hope so but I would say it is "sure", especially if the next IS medium is indeed the Hellspawn.

Edited by FLG 01, 28 August 2017 - 04:13 PM.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 08:56 AM, said:

According to the Roadmap posted last week:

Or, you know, it could just be the way PGI has this tendency of listing everything IS first and then everything Clan. Just look at every quirk and weapon change in PGI's history on how they list things. Hell, even the store's Civil War packs list the IS mechs first and then the Clan mechs. I wouldn't be counting on that to be the defining point of how they end up announcing things.

It could be an IS medium, or it could be either of the clan mechs that they have listed. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Piranha since Russ already spoiled it some time ago; and holding out on announcing that mech just seems pointless. Especially when you consider that there is no Clan 20 tonner and the longer they hold out on that the more annoying it is for the people who don't have that kind of option for their drop deck.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, I personally vehemently hate the Hellspawn and Chimera; and I hope that we get far better choices (as have been listed over and over in this thread) before we see them. They're two of the very few mechs I didn't like in MW4. Aesthetically and payload wise I just don't like them. However, sadly, they probably will be the next two IS mediums that we see . . . or at least one of them, anyway.

[Odanan]

Sereglach, on 28 August 2017 - 07:03 PM, said:

Or, you know, it could just be the way PGI has this tendency of listing everything IS first and then everything Clan. Just look at every quirk and weapon change in PGI's history on how they list things. Hell, even the store's Civil War packs list the IS mechs first and then the Clan mechs. I wouldn't be counting on that to be the defining point of how they end up announcing things.

It could be an IS medium, or it could be either of the clan mechs that they have listed. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if it's the Piranha since Russ already spoiled it some time ago; and holding out on announcing that mech just seems pointless. Especially when you consider that there is no Clan 20 tonner and the longer they hold out on that the more annoying it is for the people who don't have that kind of option for their drop deck.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On a side note, I personally vehemently hate the Hellspawn and Chimera; and I hope that we get far better choices (as have been listed over and over in this thread) before we see them. They're two of the very few mechs I didn't like in MW4. Aesthetically and payload wise I just don't like them. However, sadly, they probably will be the next two IS mediums that we see . . . or at least one of them, anyway.

We will see.

About the Hellspawn, its a 45 tonner, fast, with jump jets, ECM and a decent amount of stock energy+missiles. What's not to like? Well, it's blocky and has only 3 usable variants (PGI will need to invent 3, including the hero). Solid chassis, nonetheless.

[FLG 01]

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

About the Hellspawn, its a 45 tonner, fast, with jump jets, ECM and a decent amount of stock energy+missiles. What's not to like? Well, it's blocky and has only 3 usable variants (PGI will need to invent 3, including the hero). Solid chassis, nonetheless.

...compared to the Chimera, perhaps.

On its own, the hardpoints are not decent at all: 3x energy and 2x missile (or 2x energy and 2x missile) are borderline useless on their own. It needs serious inflation to begin with. The geometry with easily identified and vulnerable sidetorsos is, at best, average and probably below average. The three variants are mostly the same, except one which is strictly worse than the others for lacking a hardpoint. And the lore... what lore?

I don't see what to do with this Mech. If it got serious hardpoint inflation and nice quirks, it might become a potent SRM-bomber. But then, if you are hoping for hardpoint inflation and quirks you know your Mech is not worth it.

Bottom line: it's a mediocre Mech which depends on hardpoint inflation and quirks, without much relevance in the lore - that's what's not to like.

[Sereglach]

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

We will see.

Yes, yes we will.

Odanan, on 28 August 2017 - 07:34 PM, said:

About the Hellspawn, its a 45 tonner, fast, with jump jets, ECM and a decent amount of stock energy+missiles. What's not to like? Well, it's blocky and has only 3 usable variants (PGI will need to invent 3, including the hero). Solid chassis, nonetheless.

1. It's FUGLY. Regardless of likely MWO hitboxes, just the drab and blocky aesthetics are very unappealing. Granted, we'd need to see what Alex does with it, but it's always been a mech whose looks I hate and I'm sure it'll stay that way no matter how much Alex dresses it up (not unlike what I think of other mechs in MWO).

2. The loadout is mediocre, especially when competing with a far superior Dervish, that it was intended to replace; and yet the Dervish was still getting modernized variants being released (looking at you 7D, 8D, and 9D) in the same time period.

3. It sacrifices a LOT of armor in order to carry what it does. A stock Urbanmech has comparable armor. Once you make up for the armor difference (which will require stripping some combination of speed, weapons, or equipment) you've lost a lot of that other potential. This is especially apparent if you want to dump that IS XL engine for a LFE or STD version.

4. For MWO purposes, with the exception of the 10SR (the all energy version) all of the hardpoints are in the same locations. While this can sometimes be worked around for mechs (like the Crab), in others it's just depressing, especially when PGI hands out their often awkward or near meaningless hardpoint inflation (looking at you Phoenix Hawk and Quickdraw). That makes the viability of the variants, and whether they're useful or if they're all just the same thing in the end, a crapshoot.

5. Again on the variant issue, while I have zero problems with the premise of PGI making their own variants, PGI sometimes enters sketchy territory. Either PGI makes these variants junk that are just filler, or makes them go-to variants that are superior to most-if-not-all of the rest. I'd prefer them make variants that are at least in line with the rest of the chassis, but that's not likely; and when you're starting with something as mediocre as the Hellspawn, it's worrisome how PGI will handle it.