20517 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Odanan, on 28 April 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

With a change to the IS XL Engines, enter the MW4 IS omnimechs: Avatar and Templar.

I'd classify the Avatar as an MW3 mech because it was only added to MW4 by MekTek's MekPaks years after the official release.

[Odanan]

FupDup, on 28 April 2019 - 04:55 PM, said:

I'd classify the Avatar as an MW3 mech because it was only added to MW4 by MekTek's MekPaks years after the official release.

You are correct, sir.

So, one completely new omnimech (Raptor), one from MechCommander 2 (Men Shen), one form MW3 (Avatar) and one from MW4 (Templar). I can't think of a better mech pack.

[FupDup]

Odanan, on 28 April 2019 - 07:07 PM, said:

I can't think of a better mech pack.

I can.

"The Good Omnis" Pack: Raptor, Men Shen, Black Hawk KU, Hauptmann

Operation Bulldog Pack: Owens, Strider, Avatar, Sunder (all of which either get monster quirks or "Mk. II" enhancements like I mentioned earlier")

I'd also suggest a Celestial pack but those aren't too popular and also tend to require stuff like melee weapons (i.e. Retractable Blades) and different cockpit/gyro types.

Edited by FupDup, 28 April 2019 - 07:18 PM.

[Timberjac]

My kingdom for a Stone Rhino… as ultimate pack or as special pack with anothers mech... I don't need more.

[Pariah Devalis]

We have some small gaps left to fill in MWO, but for the most part it is basically scraping the bottom of the barrel. At least not without another time jump, and the novelty of time jump tech doesn't seem to last very long. Some select pieces of tech are adopted, most are shelved after being played with once or twice.

About the only area not tread on at all, however, would be alternative movement profile mechs. Specifically quads. They would be a lot more difficult to get into the game than any other biped, sure, but there are easily one of each weight class for both Clan and IS at this point, and would offer a different movement profile and their own mechlab restrictions that set them apart from bipeds (think HAWKEN except without boost strafing).

I honestly feel like having something as large as an alternative movement profile type mech option could freshen up the gameplay experience for a little bit. You tired of playing a bipedal tank sim? Swap to a quad, take a hit to your crit space but gain the ability to move WSAD like a slow FPS. An option to the fundamental movement style all the mechs we currently have could be nice, whether or not you like quads. It would feel different, and I personally feel like that is what we need most. Something that feels different, but still fits in the context of MWO.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 29 April 2019 - 06:29 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Well - we are still missing a fast and mobile heavy IS mech in the upper segment (Exterminator, Thunder, Falconer, Hercules...)

EIther IS Omnis or Quads will not find their way, they will offer little for a lot of development time. Best thing PGI can do is to deliver some "cash cows" - some people might buy no matter the state of the game or the questionable further development.

Or they try some stunt like they did with the UrbanMech - fund first (even better place several mechs and see wich of them get the most money (of course the question is what happens with money for not-funded Mechs.... (can't remember how they handled this option with the UrbanMech))

Yeah thinking about it.... the "let your wallet vote" option might be a evil but lucrative way to produce more income.
For example a bet costs 5$ when the mech is funded you get 1 Mech. If its not funded you get 5$ worth of MCs and premium time.
You can put multiple bets on a single Mech - wich might result in credits for this Mech.
For example you would have placed 50$ worth of money in Marauder II. This would translate into 10 credits that would allow you to redeem Marauder II Mechs (including gifts)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 April 2019 - 06:59 AM.

[FLG 01]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2019 - 06:21 AM, said:

We have some small gaps left to fill in MWO, but for the most part it is basically scraping the bottom of the barrel.

Missing a jump capable 20t Mech on both sides is a rather big gap from where I am standing considering the importance of JJ for lights. The IS further lacks a 25t Mech with JJ, making the problem even worse.

IS Omni Mechs are another big omission, and if one choses the right Mechs they won't need any special rules or treatment.

And then there are the small gaps. Some are really very small, but they are gaps nonetheless. For example: there is no IS 55t Mechs that can have an AC/20 in the arm.
Not a big deal for many, I know, but it means I cannot run with an XL and the AC/20. I really would want that, and it is what I miss about the BSW HR e.g.

Again, it is a small niche. But it is there. And there are many more. See, I am not chasing any meta when configuring a Mech or wishing for a Mech. While I keep the performance in mind, I am interested in trying out new stuff to have fun with.
(... which is, btw, why I cannot warm up to the Hollander since I can play it right now if I wanted.)

[Bishop Steiner]

Karl Streiger, on 29 April 2019 - 06:55 AM, said:

Well - we are still missing a fast and mobile heavy IS mech in the upper segment (Exterminator, Thunder, Falconer, Hercules...)

EIther IS Omnis or Quads will not find their way, they will offer little for a lot of development time. Best thing PGI can do is to deliver some "cash cows" - some people might buy no matter the state of the game or the questionable further development.

Or they try some stunt like they did with the UrbanMech - fund first (even better place several mechs and see wich of them get the most money (of course the question is what happens with money for not-funded Mechs.... (can't remember how they handled this option with the UrbanMech))

Yeah thinking about it.... the "let your wallet vote" option might be a evil but lucrative way to produce more income.
For example a bet costs 5$ when the mech is funded you get 1 Mech. If its not funded you get 5$ worth of MCs and premium time.
You can put multiple bets on a single Mech - wich might result in credits for this Mech.
For example you would have placed 50$ worth of money in Marauder II. This would translate into 10 credits that would allow you to redeem Marauder II Mechs (including gifts)

Multi Fund would be terrible, as you end up just diluting the pool. It would have the "Bernie Sanders" effect and likely mean none see sufficient funding.

Do a 4-5 option Poll. Leave it open for a month. Winner gets the Kickstarter, or whatever. Though TBH, one shouldn't need to do a pre-order. Urbanmech was a pretty unique scenario, and had to overcome a ton of internal doubt over at PGI of the actual degree of want vs talk.

[Karl Streiger]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 April 2019 - 07:51 AM, said:

Multi Fund would be terrible, as you end up just diluting the pool. It would have the "Bernie Sanders" effect and likely mean none see sufficient funding.

Of course. I think I was joking, wasn't I? Duno but the **** storm of such action might turn the transverse debacle into a mild breeze.
Although if this is the way to get the Thug or Exterminator into MW5...well well...

(Although if moving would allow adding mechs - I could do a model, if only I had time to spare)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 29 April 2019 - 11:01 AM.

[50 50]

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2019 - 06:21 AM, said:

We have some small gaps left to fill in MWO, but for the most part it is basically scraping the bottom of the barrel. At least not without another time jump, and the novelty of time jump tech doesn't seem to last very long. Some select pieces of tech are adopted, most are shelved after being played with once or twice.

Well, another tech jump makes even more mech chassis options available.
Though everyone has a favourite and it's awesome to see the new artwork, the mechs do not offer that much of a variation in play to mechs we already have.

Pariah Devalis, on 29 April 2019 - 06:21 AM, said:

About the only area not tread on at all, however, would be alternative movement profile mechs. Specifically quads. They would be a lot more difficult to get into the game than any other biped, sure, but there are easily one of each weight class for both Clan and IS at this point, and would offer a different movement profile and their own mechlab restrictions that set them apart from bipeds (think HAWKEN except without boost strafing).

I honestly feel like having something as large as an alternative movement profile type mech option could freshen up the gameplay experience for a little bit. You tired of playing a bipedal tank sim? Swap to a quad, take a hit to your crit space but gain the ability to move WSAD like a slow FPS. An option to the fundamental movement style all the mechs we currently have could be nice, whether or not you like quads. It would feel different, and I personally feel like that is what we need most. Something that feels different, but still fits in the context of MWO.

I completely agree with this.
Pilotable options that provide players with a different experience while still fitting in the genre is a good thing.
Quad mechs with a different movement profile would offer this.
It's one of the big reasons I want to see the Elementals added as they would provide a unique experience to use and to fight against that no mech will ever provide.

Karl Streiger, on 29 April 2019 - 06:55 AM, said:

EIther IS Omnis or Quads will not find their way, they will offer little for a lot of development time.

I'm not so sure about that.
I would think that adding IS Omnis would be as easy as it was to add Clan Battlemechs.
Quads, yes, would require more work.
However, the upside of taking those steps and putting in that work would be the doors it would open in terms of new mechs that could be introduced and therefore new options for players.

I would think that for quads in particular there would be quite a 'wow' factor for players to just say holy ****, that's different to all the other mechs in the game and that alone might be all that is needed to many to jump on said mech pack.

[Ovion]

50 50, on 29 April 2019 - 07:54 PM, said:

I'm not so sure about that.
I would think that adding IS Omnis would be as easy as it was to add Clan Battlemechs.
Quads, yes, would require more work.
However, the upside of taking those steps and putting in that work would be the doors it would open in terms of new mechs that could be introduced and therefore new options for players.

I would think that for quads in particular there would be quite a 'wow' factor for players to just say holy ****, that's different to all the other mechs in the game and that alone might be all that is needed to many to jump on said mech pack.

IS Omni would open a big can of worms, because what, 2-3 wouldn't be a dumpster fire without gigaquirks.

The Cost-Benefit for Quads means it very much is a case of FAR more work than it'd see a return.
Est. 500k-1mil to make (New crit system, new mechlab layout, new hud, new skeleton, new movement and animations, IK, etc) over standard running costs, max possible mechs ~12-15, that'd each need to sell 50% to double more than a regular mechpack to justify it.

There's a slim chance they could include the code in the core engine for MWV, but I wouldn't hold my breath tbh.

Edited by Ovion, 30 April 2019 - 03:47 AM.

[Odanan]

Ovion, on 30 April 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

Est. 500k-1mil to make (New crit system, new mechlab layout, new hud, new skeleton, new movement and animations, IK, etc) over standard running costs, max possible mechs ~12-15, that'd each need to sell 50% to double more than a regular mechpack to justify it.

Those prices are off the charts. You could make complete games with that money.

And even with a fraction of that value, there are very few quads up to the 3060s.

Come on, MWO needs to add some 8 mechs (Wasp, Crusader, Firemoth, Stone Rhino and 4 IS omnis) and that's it.

[Ovion]

Odanan, on 30 April 2019 - 09:27 AM, said:

Those prices are off the charts. You could make complete games with that money.

And even with a fraction of that value, there are very few quads up to the 3060s.

Come on, MWO needs to add some 8 mechs (Wasp, Crusader, Firemoth, Stone Rhino and 4 IS omnis) and that's it.

Those numbers are actually pretty conservative honestly.
That's giving the project to ~8-10 guys + sundry bits for ~6-12 months, that has to be done on top of usual MWO work.

[Sereglach]

. . . MW5 modding. That's where quads (and probably melee) could/will likely come from, honestly. If PGI has the same modding EULA rules set up as any other game company that actively supports modding, then PGI has nearly full rights to any mod a person makes and publishes for the game. I do agree, sadly, that PGI developing those quads (and even possibly melee) in house would be far too expensive for them to do on their own.

Granted, I don't think PGI would rip off a quad mod and not compensate the developer(s). For example of how developers tend to hande it, Bethesda hired the guy who made the most popular Oblivion combat overhaul -Skycaptain, I think his handle was- and turned the lion's share of his mod into Skyrim's base combat system. Compensation came in the form of a job. However, PGI would have the ability to lay claim to it and put the development effort into bringing quads to MWO, or MWO II, or whatever game is their primary by that point.

In the mean time, while there might be very few "must haves" to make MWO's mech collection contain all of the most iconic chassis, I think there's still LOTS of mechs that they can add to provide something new to the game. Some (like IS Omnis) will require PGI addressing some of their core balance problems, like IS XLs (easy fix already discussed). That's even without tech jumps.

Once they reach the tech jump, though, the real kicker . . . and honestly scary situation for PGI to handle . . . will come in once they want to push their timeline post FCCW era, into the Jihad and whatnot. Mixtech becomes common enough, by that point, that it'll be nigh impossible for PGI to not allow it. That'll be a nasty situation for PGI to try to handle; and you've got to wonder whether PGI will ever want to push the timeline that far. For MWO, I don't think so . . . for whatever game(s) come after MWO . . . possibly.

[TheArisen]

Ovion, on 30 April 2019 - 03:46 AM, said:

IS Omni would open a big can of worms, because what, 2-3 wouldn't be a dumpster fire without gigaquirks.

The Cost-Benefit for Quads means it very much is a case of FAR more work than it'd see a return.
Est. 500k-1mil to make (New crit system, new mechlab layout, new hud, new skeleton, new movement and animations, IK, etc) over standard running costs, max possible mechs ~12-15, that'd each need to sell 50% to double more than a regular mechpack to justify it.

There's a slim chance they could include the code in the core engine for MWV, but I wouldn't hold my breath tbh.

There are a few good IS omnis but you're right the majority are bad to mediocre.

Some of the good ones, imo.
- Raptor, 25 tons, ECM & JJ, can do 11 energy or 10 + ECM, compact body with all high mounts.
- Men Shen, 55 tons, MASC & ECM, excellent & varied pods, fast, high mounts with a great frontal profile.
- Black Hawk-Ku, 60 tons, 12, maybe more, energy, 300xl for good speed, ECM & JJ
- Templar, 85 tons, ECM on multiple pods & JJ on multiple pods, varied HPs with some great options, fast.

Locked XL isn't a death sentence, Battlemasters for the longest time used XLs and everyone knew it. It';; naturally depend on PGI's model & what quirks they decide to go with.

[FupDup]

TheArisen, on 30 April 2019 - 11:16 AM, said:

- Templar, 85 tons, ECM on multiple pods & JJ on multiple pods, varied HPs with some great options, fast.

Locked XL isn't a death sentence, Battlemasters for the longest time used XLs and everyone knew it. It';; naturally depend on PGI's model & what quirks they decide to go with.

The Templar does not have the high mounts of the Battlemaster. You're only getting at most three potential (not even guaranteed) high mounts, which strongly depends on which variants PGI graces us with. Most of your firepower is going to be mounted in your very low arms because the LT only has 7 slots open and the RT only has 6 slots (PGI might or might not be merciful enough to let us remove the idiotic hardwired CASE, giving you 7 slots there). Since the Mist Lynx still has a hardwired CLAP in its head I would not count on PGI's generosity.

In general the mech will have an extreme critslot famine because you have to deal with bulky IS equipment but 40 tons of useable pod space. The Templar will be mostly dependent on ballistic weaponry because of its slot limitations preventing it from using more than a handful of DHS, and a large chunk of its payload will always be mounted in the arms by necessity.

As for the hitboxes, I've never understood why people keep insisting on the Battlemaster being so amazeballs with XL because in my anecdotal experience I've always found the mech's hitboxes to be very very easily isolated. Maybe if you stay like 700 meters away from the action sniping with ERLLs it's fine, but if you engage in any real mid to short range combat your luck may not be as favorable. And as said above the Templar will never be able to pack 6 high-mounted lasers like the Battlemaster (at most 3, and that requires the Alternate E variant that comes with C3 Master stock).

And of course we have no idea if the two mechs will share similar hitboxes or not. Lastly there is the issue of player psychology. Most people do not expect IS assaults to pack an XL, thus they are less inclined to go for a side-core kill if they have an opportunity to just core out the CT. The Templar on the other hand will have a giant target painted on its shoulders because you always know exactly what engine it will be packing at all times and in all circumstances. It's kind of like how people shoot at the STs of IS lights (because they always use XL unless trolling), the STs of all Clan mechs (because CXL is all but guaranteed), or the CT of Heavy Gauss mechs (because STD).

The only IS assault Omni that is good out of the box (in the current timeline) is the Hauptmann because it has a STD engine and lots of crit space.

Edited by FupDup, 30 April 2019 - 12:04 PM.

[Valdarion Silarius]

Nobody wants an IS Templar omnimech for the pure meme potential alone. Shame.

[Shadowomega1]

Would love to see the Templar variant that has the X-pulse lasers in game but with standard pulse lasers and quirked to increase pulse laser range.

[Odanan]

Ovion, on 30 April 2019 - 10:03 AM, said:

Those numbers are actually pretty conservative honestly. That's giving the project to ~8-10 guys + sundry bits for ~6-12 months, that has to be done on top of usual MWO work.

I would say:

1 2D artist: 2 weeks for each mech (concept art, orthos and 3 repaints - 1 for standard, 1 for collectors and 1 for hero)
1 2D artist, UI: 1 week.
1 3D artist, modelling: 3 weeks (3d model, parts for the different variants, geometry)
1 3D artist, texture: 2 days for each camo pattern.
1 3D artist, animations: 1 week for animating each mech.
2 coders: 3 months making the code for quad mechs (including variants and mechlab).
1 guy to plan and manage the team.

And this is not on top of their usual work, THIS IS THEIR WORK.

BTW, I suspect Alex Iglesias has dozens of concept arts of mech we will never see in the game. Or do you think he draws one single mech each month?

[Corbon Zackery]

Yea none of those mech are really on the Unofficial napkin list

1. We wont see a Macross mech release until after MechWarrior 5 comes out. Don't want do anything that might mess up the release.

2. The unofficial napkin List is as follows:

Dasher
Firefly
Hermes
Clint
Witworth
Hoplite
Guillotine
Shogun
Imp
Hollander
Owens
Strider
Komodo
Lineholder
Merlin
Avatar
Excalibur
Spartan
Sunder
Turkina
Thunderhawk

Then Star league Pack: (Only if MechWarrior 5 needs more funding)
Mercury
Thorn
Mongoose
Sentinel
Wyvern
Lancelot
Bombardier
Exterminator
Flashman
Thug
Crockett

Periphery bonus:
Marshal

That's really the paper napkin list: