229 replies to this topic

[Koniks]

Kruiser, on 22 December 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

I am specifically talking about the weapons and the damage that these mech apply.

And I pointed out that the TDR isn't massively better at trading damage.

Quote

And I'm so glad your brought up the Dire Wolf.

There are tradeoffs for every choice. The point is that counters exist.

[Degalus]

Only i can say to this thread is ... i see many Thunderbolts ... many 4ER PPC Thunderbolts... and hey they can alpha them. (50% heat 4 the win) Sure not on Sulf. but 3 are also enough.
Problem is less the Mech. Solo he is doomed against a Timberwolf for sure. But in CW the Class Restriction is gone and so we can see many of them at once.
A Lance Timberwolfs cant even get close enough or do enough DMG on Range to stop a Lance of ERPPC Thunderbolts on a CW Map (Gatecamping). They can kill a Timberwolf with 2 alphas (if they can aim)
Teamplay is the Key and if you have enough Thunderbolts you can Alpha ER PPCs and have time to cooldown while a other Tunderbolt finish the Mech off.

Timberwolfs or Stormcrows dont have such a advantage that grow exponetial with the numbers of mechs like the Tunderbolts have.

Also the Wubverine.... srly 4 Large Pulse with the Range of a Clan Large Pulse but less Heat & Cooldown?

I played with the IS Quirks and daaaaamn they are fun! Hard to get that feeling on a Clanmech if you run hot with just 2 Large Pulser...

If anyone (R Razor) can tell me how to counter the Thunderbolts with my Timys, that would be great.

Just my 2 Cent

Edited by Degalus, 23 December 2014 - 10:53 AM.

[Farix]

The proof of whether the Thunderboat is OP or not is to look at the CW results. So far, the Thunderbolt has not turned the tide of the Clan advance. All it has done is slow it to a crawl. Therefore it isn't OP compared to other mechs and needs to be toned down. That is proof that the other IS mechs need buffs to add more variety to the IS dropdecks.

[R Razor]

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 10:50 AM, said:

Only i can say to this thread is ... i see many Thunderbolts ... many 4ER PPC Thunderbolts... and hey they can alpha them. (50% heat 4 the win) Sure not on Sulf. but 3 are also enough.
Problem is less the Mech. Solo he is doomed against a Timberwolf for sure. But in CW the Class Restriction is gone and so we can see many of them at once.
A Lance Timberwolfs cant even get close enough or do enough DMG on Range to stop a Lance of ERPPC Thunderbolts on a CW Map (Gatecamping). They can kill a Timberwolf with 2 alphas (if they can aim)
Teamplay is the Key and if you have enough Thunderbolts you can Alpha ER PPCs and have time to cooldown while a other Tunderbolt finish the Mech off.

Timberwolfs or Stormcrows dont have such a advantage that grow exponetial with the numbers of mechs like the Tunderbolts have.

Also the Wubverine.... srly 4 Large Pulse with the Range of a Clan Large Pulse but less Heat & Cooldown?

I played with the IS Quirks and daaaaamn they are fun! Hard to get that feeling on a Clanmech if you run hot with just 2 Large Pulser...

If anyone (R Razor) can tell me how to counter the Thunderbolts with my Timys, that would be great.

Just my 2 Cent

Close with them, they can't brawl worth a darn.............use your laser vomit builds and take out the side torsos if they are running 4 ERPPC's, they don't have the armor your Timbers have, you'll blow through them pretty easily.

There are many ways to counter them.

[Degalus]

We tried to brawl. But with 8+ Thunderbolts on the gates alpharing every mech that comes too close ... we couldnt get close enough. Also Laser Vomit? Srly? Do you even know how hot Clanlaserboats are? Not to forget that we need to hold 1.5 sec on target and spreed the dmg all over the mech while we lose our ct armor from one alpha of a thunderbolt.

[HARDKOR]

Hello balance! Now you clams know how it feels to have to sacrifice several mechs to get the gates open on Boreal.

[Throe]

I think it would make far more sense for them to cap that reduction at 25-30%. As it stands, 9S pilots have no reason to run anything but ERPPCs. The 25% for PPCs and the 50% for ERPPCs means ERPPCs generate the *exact* same amount of heat as PPCs in a 9S. Even if the ERPPC setup isn't overpowered, the PPC should always generate less heat than an ERPPC. I'm not suggesting they make the PPC generate even less heat though, on the contrary, the 7.5 heat ERPPC should probably be something more like an 11 heat ERPPC. Case in point, if the 2:3 heat ratio was preserved between the two weapons, the ERPPC would generate 11.25 heat per shot on the 9S. Still pretty magnificent, but not altogether overpowered.

One of the questions that went through my head when these quirks came out was:
So, ERPPCs with 10 heat were overpowered and so their heat generation was changed to 15 per shot. This made them balanced, and they were left that way for a long time. Now, you can hop in a 9S and your ERPPCs generate *7.5* heat. *How* is that balanced? It isn't. I'm a PPC-9S pilot, and I'll tell you flat out, it's overpowered.

Edited by Throet, 23 December 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[R Razor]

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 11:05 AM, said:

We tried to brawl. But with 8+ Thunderbolts on the gates alpharing every mech that comes too close ... we couldnt get close enough. Also Laser Vomit? Srly? Do you even know how hot Clanlaserboats are? Not to forget that we need to hold 1.5 sec on target and spreed the dmg all over the mech while we lose our ct armor from one alpha of a thunderbolt.

But the same can be said for 8+ of several mechs...........and a 4 ER Thud is running an XL, he doesn't lose half his weapons when his CT goes away, he dies. And yes, laser vomit.........2 or 3 Doomcrows or Timbers focusing on an XL equipped Thud will drop him quite easily.

The scenario you are describing happens in reverse when Clans defend as well, only instead of Thuds it's Crows and Dires and Timbers at 800 meters focusing down anything that tries to come through the gates.

Nothing is going to change until limitations on quantities of chassis are implemented (and that is not going to happen).

[Degalus]

HARDKOR, on 23 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

Hello balance! Now you clams know how it feels to have to sacrifice several mechs to get the gates open on Boreal.

Even on Def. we got the Thunderboltboating... They dont even try to push. They just sniping in the base and kill one by one. We also tried to make a push out of the Def to stop the rain but half of the team got destroyed on the way to them and the rest got stomped from the DDC & Banshee Defender + Thunderbolts behind the gates. After the push they used the time pushed in got the omega down to 50%. We got back on Def.position only to see that they just droped with Thunderbolts again... Do some people realy have 2 or more of 1Variant?

[Brody319]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

Maybe you should read the thread title and learn who is bitching and who isn't......just a thought.

Oh. Okay, so because the topic was started by a Clanner, You are not complaining about the imbalance of the Clan to IS chassis?

[R Razor]

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Even on Def. we got the Thunderboltboating... They dont even try to push. They just sniping in the base and kill one by one. We also tried to make a push out of the Def to stop the rain but half of the team got destroyed on the way to them and the rest got stomped from the DDC & Banshee Defender + Thunderbolts behind the gates. After the push they used the time pushed in got the omega down to 50%. We got back on Def.position only to see that they just droped with Thunderbolts again... Do some people realy have 2 or more of 1Variant?

Yes, I know folks that own two or more Thuds, two or more Firestarters, two or more Timberwolves, two or more Crows, and all run the same variants..........

Brody319, on 23 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

Oh. Okay, so because the topic was started by a Clanner, You are not complaining about the imbalance of the Clan to IS chassis?

Pointing out that just because a mech is now near equal to the clan standard Timberwolf that doesn't mean it's OP.

[Degalus]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

But the same can be said for 8+ of several mechs...........and a 4 ER Thud is running an XL, he doesn't lose half his weapons when his CT goes away, he dies. And yes, laser vomit.........2 or 3 Doomcrows or Timbers focusing on an XL equipped Thud will drop him quite easily.

The scenario you are describing happens in reverse when Clans defend as well, only instead of Thuds it's Crows and Dires and Timbers at 800 meters focusing down anything that tries to come through the gates.

Nothing is going to change until limitations on quantities of chassis are implemented (and that is not going to happen).

Uhm no i can not. Still hotter then thunderbolts and srly... which crow can survive 2 Alphas from 2 Thunderbolts? Dmg and Heat + Pin Point is on the Side of the IS Quirkmechs. 8 Crows dont have a chance vs 8 ER PPC Thunderbolts if the skill of the plalyers is equal

[Degalus]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Pointing out that just because a mech is now near equal to the clan standard Timberwolf that doesn't mean it's OP.

Near equal to timberwolf? I dont know any Clanmech that can do what a Er PPC Thunderbolt can ... 1. our er ppcs are hotter from default 2. 50% less Heat to the already cooler er ppcs ... no they are not equal

[R Razor]

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

Uhm no i can not. Still hotter then thunderbolts and srly... which crow can survive 2 Alphas from 2 Thunderbolts? Dmg and Heat + Pin Point is on the Side of the IS Quirkmechs. 8 Crows dont have a chance vs 8 ER PPC Thunderbolts if the skill of the plalyers is equal

I didn't say to use only Crows, please focus. I said that 8 Clan mechs, most probably a mix of Crows and Timbers, can close with and fight 8 Thuds on near equal terms..........because they can.

You said 8 Thuds are impossible to beat, I merely pointed out that you are incorrect and that they can be beaten and provided you with the tactic you asked me specifically for.

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

Near equal to timberwolf? I dont know any Clanmech that can do what a Er PPC Thunderbolt can ... 1. our er ppcs are hotter from default 2. 50% less Heat to the already cooler er ppcs ... no they are not equal

You have other advantages that differentiate the mechs........they are close enough to equal, with the edge still going to the Timber...........that's good enough for most folks (except the ones that can't stand the IS having a good counter to their Timbers anyway)

[Oderint dum Metuant]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

Oh most definitely...........and when you watch streams from IS comp teams you'll see Boatloads of Firestarters doing it as well.......

My point is, the best heavy mech in the game, bar none, is the Timberwolf, I'm sure most would agree on that point. That mech, in addition to being the best in the game, has the ability to exploit the HSR issue by utilizing its JJ's. Combine that with its speed and firepower capability and it's almost Godlike compared to any other heavy in the game. Now, the IS finally has a mech that can fight on near equal terms, and folks that run these Timberwolves are screaming for nerfs. Some of them come across as only being satisfied as long as they hold all of the hole card advantages, going so far as to admit they will change sides in order to maintain that perceived advantage.

Surely I can't be the only one that sees this.

Personally speaking i would put certain Tbolt chassis on par with the Twolf in certain situations.

The MPL version inside it's effective range strips you down in double time.

And as we came across the other night a good number of Tbolts with ERPPC's and the quirks on the defense team can blunt a clan attacking team (non premade)
The quirks to the Tbolt have made it useful, but like the TW it is above and beyond where it should be.

[Nightmare1]

Seeing a Clanner rage about TDRs is pretty funny.

Most folks complain that the Stormcrow+Timberwolf Combos are overpowered.

Lol.

[R Razor]

DV McKenna, on 23 December 2014 - 12:11 PM, said:

Personally speaking i would put certain Tbolt chassis on par with the Twolf in certain situations.

The MPL version inside it's effective range strips you down in double time.

And as we came across the other night a good number of Tbolts with ERPPC's and the quirks on the defense team can blunt a clan attacking team (non premade)
The quirks to the Tbolt have made it useful, but like the TW it is above and beyond where it should be.

I wouldn't agree that it's above and beyond until across the board balance changes are made but yes, it is powerful and I do agree that it's the equal of the Timber in more than half of the circumstances. That in fact is my point, it's nice to finally have an IS mech that can stand up to the Clan heavy du jour.

The MPL Thud is situational.

[Degalus]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

I didn't say to use only Crows, please focus. I said that 8 Clan mechs, most probably a mix of Crows and Timbers, can close with and fight 8 Thuds on near equal terms..........because they can.

You said 8 Thuds are impossible to beat, I merely pointed out that you are incorrect and that they can be beaten and provided you with the tactic you asked me specifically for.

With equal Pilots? 8 Thunders shreder Timys and Crows like everything else. Even if they just pop out a shoulder from a Crow they make that mech nearly useless and you know why? because EVEN MORE HEAT! so bye bye Laservomit. You can barly maintain 2 ER Mlaser if you lost a Shoulder.

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 11:38 AM, said:

You have other advantages that differentiate the mechs........they are close enough to equal, with the edge still going to the Timber...........that's good enough for most folks (except the ones that can't stand the IS having a good counter to their Timbers anyway)

K letz count ...
-I survive a Shoulderlost ... yea for even more heat and 1/2 of my weapons gone.
-I have omnipods with different slots ... nice but the most Clanweapons are too hot or to weak (pinpoint>dot) to take "more" of them... or you dont even have space or tonnage because of fixed equip
-I have nice Armor on Timys. Thats realy a +
-I have a nice Speed. also a good +
-I Have smaller Doubleheatsinks ... funny that i barly have some. Need the space mostly for ammo or Weapons (fixed equip is hard)

Now to the bad
-Shoulde l ose more heat
-Weapons more heat in general
-I have fixed internal armor engine and equip that kill daaaamn many builds ... srly i cant even make a good K2 Clone with 2xAC10 4xMlaser out of a Timy
-I dont have usefull Quirks
-Dot Weapons:
Longer Burntime
Burst Acs
streaming LRMs



All in all. IS are the new Clans. They can Equip so much more Stuff because if he wants to run slow and have a extrem pin point alpha .. why not? Just change engine or armor and mount big ACs.
They also have superio Quirks. You cant say thats not true because srly ... its a fact that you have the Quirk buffs and Clans dont.
More DPS because of Quirkmechs (-Cooldown + less Heat = more DPS)
Oh not forget the Velocity and Range Quirkbuffs

k i got too much into this Thread sry.
Its just a little frustrating to lose so many matches vs some Corps that just use the Overquirked Mechs and you cant do anything because if you try to do the same .... you just cant because IS have just the better Weapons if you use the right Mech.

But i think the real Problem is Mechboating... 8+ Thunderbolts, Wubverines kicking everything out of balance. We need Class Restriction also in CW while we drop.

Edited by Degalus, 23 December 2014 - 12:21 PM.

[R Razor]

Degalus, on 23 December 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

But i think the real Problem is Mechboating... 8+ Thunderbolts, Wubverines kicking everything out of balance. We need Class Restriction also in CW while we drop.

I agree with this 100%

[ztac]

People seem to forget that unless you paid cash for the second wave , a lot of clan players only have access to 2 variants at each weight, making their choices really limited. So it is hardly surprising that you see a lot of certain kinds.

However IS has a mountain of mechs to choose from and it is rapidly getting down to a certain type with a light or 2 thrown in for good measure!