229 replies to this topic

[Artifact]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2014 - 04:05 AM, said:

Its not even a bit warm. its fine.. STD 290, 3xERPPC, 16DHS. People running XLs in Thuds are doing it wrong.

And if you want super range hitscan ERLLs try 5SS with 4xERLL. 911 meter range, 15% heat reduction..

911? Try over 1 klick before falloff, because if you're running that build, you're running the +range ERPPC module, too.

TDR ERPPCs have greater range than clan ERPPCs, have 50% of the heat generation, run at 75% of the recycle time of clan ERPPCs, and do the same damage.

But, Artifact! Clan ERPPCs do 15 points of damage so it all balances out! No, no it doesn't. Clan ERPPCs do the same damage as IS ERPPCs, except they uselessly splash a few points of damage to otherwise undamaged areas.

TDRs are blatantly broken. It's not even close. The damage per second and damage per heat accounting makes it absolutely absurd to argue otherwise. For those comparing TDRs to TBRs? Dude, TBRs are 10 tons heavier. Compare TDR damage to HBR damage since they weigh the same.

HBRs are 15-ish kph faster. TDRs have FAR higher sustained DPS. They have FAR higher PPFLD. TDRS are also much tougher than HBRs, because of the slot layout.

Next, we'll talk about how Clan chassis can't mount two GRs unless you want to bring a warhawk or dire wolf.

Oh, and for the record, I've given up playing Clans in CW, for the time being. I'll go play in the FRR, which is a cool enough faction in canon literature anyhow. As it stands, there is no comparison. IS lights are far and away better, TDR-9S's are, pound for pound, probably the best long range mech in the game, and if I want to run ECM on a 100 ton assault mech, I can do that.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 06:31 AM.

[Widowmaker1981]

Artifact, on 23 December 2014 - 06:13 AM, said:

911? Try over 1 klick before falloff, because if you're running that build, you're running the +range ERPPC module, too.

TDR ERPPCs have greater range than clan ERPPCs, have 50% of the heat generation, run at 75% of the recycle time of clan ERPPCs, and do the same damage.

But, Artifact! Clan ERPPCs do 15 points of damage so it all balances out! No, no it doesn't. Clan ERPPCs do the same damage as IS ERPPCs, except they uselessly splash a few points of damage to otherwise undamaged areas.

TDRs are blatantly broken. It's not even close. The damage per second and damage per heat accounting makes it absolutely absurd to argue otherwise. For those comparing TDRs to TBRs? Dude, TBRs are 10 tons heavier. Compare TDR damage to HBR damage since they weigh the same.

HBRs are 15-ish kph faster. TDRs have FAR higher sustained DPS. They have FAR higher PPFLD. TDRS are also much tougher than HBRs, because of the slot layout.

Next, we'll talk about how Clan chassis can't mount two GRs unless you want to bring a warhawk or dire wolf.

Nah, not ERPPCs (running ERPPCs on a mech other than the 9S is stupid), ERLLs with 911m range. ERPPCs on the 5SS would have about 1100m effective range, but since youd be missing the +15% velocity hitting at that kind of range is just luck really, and theyd be too hot as well with only 15% heat reduction.

Im not really sure i agree with you on the HBR/TDR comparison.. id say they are closeish to being even when you think about the fact that the HBR has ECM and is ~10kph faster. I do better in Thuds, but im starting to think that doesnt fully reflect on balance, but my playstyle - i overheat in clan mechs too much, and IS mechs dont really overheat in comparison.

True dat on the twin gauss, another reason clan wave 3 cannot come soon enough. Cauldron Born will be able to do 2xGauss on a 65 ton 90kph chassis (though with not much else in the way of weapons)

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 23 December 2014 - 06:30 AM.

[Shalune]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

i overheat in clan mechs too much, and IS mechs dont really overheat in comparison.

That's one of their many advantages. I actually think IS has it better for CW, just that pugs are too obsessed with playing team deathmatch to notice. That said I don't think it's anywhere close to an OP or insurmountable advantage for clans. The better team should win as is. Generally though it goes like this.

Clans:
+ Faster mediums and heavies
+ Higher raw damage output
+ Fast + durable ECM in HBR
+ Streakboats to counter lights
+ Ability to hybrid LRMs from low weight
+ Boating lasers more viable

IS:
+ More accurate damage (shorter lasers, not-crappy ACs, not-spread LRMs)
+ Faster and better armed lights
+ More durable
+ Lose weapons/effectiveness slower (vastly more torso weapons)
+ Better sustained damage from lower heat
+ Boating PPCs more viable
+ More JJ options

[Artifact]

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

Nah, not ERPPCs (running ERPPCs on a mech other than the 9S is stupid), ERLLs with 911m range. ERPPCs on the 5SS would have about 1100m effective range, but since youd be missing the +15% velocity hitting at that kind of range is just luck really, and theyd be too hot as well with only 15% heat reduction.

Im not really sure i agree with you on the HBR/TDR comparison.. id say they are closeish to being even when you think about the fact that the HBR has ECM and is ~10kph faster. I do better in Thuds, but im starting to think that doesnt fully reflect on balance, but my playstyle - i overheat in clan mechs too much, and IS mechs dont really overheat in comparison.

True dat on the twin gauss, another reason clan wave 3 cannot come soon enough. Cauldron Born will be able to do 2xGauss on a 65 ton 90kph chassis (though with not much else in the way of weapons)

Ah, see? I didn't closely read what you wrote; my bad. The LLs on the TDR -5S are another example of IS quirks being completely out of bounds. For one more ton, you get a faster firing, longer almost similarly (619 vs 740m base range) ranged, MUCH cooler weapon (6.125 heat versus 10 heat) that only does a few points less damage. It's absurd. DPS is lower, but close to the same (3.16DPS vs 3.38), DPH is MUCH higher (1.47DPH vs. 1.1). Beam duration is .85 versus 1.5.

Essentially, PGI has opted to make clan weapons = IS weapons on specific chassis. The above LL illustrates this. The LL differences outlined above would be reasonable, if not for the fact that Clan mechs are otherwise hobbled. They aren't nearly configurable as IS mechs. The Clan/IS tradeoff has become a trade of higher chassis speeds (or better survivability) for far, FAR inferior customization options.

And that's just LLs on the TDR-5S. Let's compare TDR-9S ERPPCs to HBR ERPPCS, shall we?

TDR vs HBR ERPPCs
Range: 1012.5m vs 810m
Heat: 7.5 versus 15
Cooldown: 3s vs 4s
Damage: equal, except the clan version splashes 2.5 points harmlessly on otherwise undamaged sections.
DPS: 3.33 versus 2.5
DPH: 1.33 versus .667

It's absolutely /absurd./

Furthermore, it all breaks down when you talk about IS lights. IS lights are better in every way. Range considerations are a complete joke when your entire plan is to get 10m away from someone where they can't keep up with your angular velocity. With range out of the equation, survivability isn't an issue, since light mechs blow up the second they eat significant fire to begin with.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 07:36 AM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Demuder, on 23 December 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

Come on, Orions are not terrible. They are very good at certain things. I could out-brawl almost anything in my AC20/SRM/MLAS ONI-K. And I didn't even have quirks back then. Long range ? Yeah, it doesn't work both ways, I'll give you that.

With respect...I'm sticking with "Orions are terrible." I'll even add "At brawling specifically."

The engine size you give up to take that loadout makes them handle like snails...the only Orion I enjoyed even a little was the V missile boat...and even that wasn't terribly awesome.

I'd take any Cataphract, Jagermech...hell I'd take mediums to brawl before an Orion. And I REALLY WANT TO LOVE IT...but I can't.

[EvilCow]

I think this thread and all the similar other threads proved my point here: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3847395

They surrendered game balance by rules and entered a perfectly arbitrary approach, this is the result.

How unexpected...

[R Razor]

Let the tears flow Clanners...........let it all out...............

None of the Thuds are OP...........can they face your Timbers on near even ground now? Why yes, amazingly enough, they can..........although only one can really do the whole "bunny hop / bork HSR" thing you guys all seem to do.

Stop complaining, keep running your Timbers and Crows and leave the Thuds alone.

Edited by R Razor, 23 December 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[Lucky Noob]

Hehe, i feel the Pain, i always tought my Awesome 8Q and my Vindicator AA where the Heroes of the PPC, but nothing beats the Thunderpep

[Widowmaker1981]

Artifact, on 23 December 2014 - 06:50 AM, said:

And that's just LLs on the TDR-5S. Let's compare TDR-9S ERPPCs to HBR ERPPCS, shall we?

TDR vs HBR ERPPCs
Range: 1012.5m vs 810m
Heat: 7.5 versus 15
Cooldown: 3s vs 4s
Damage: equal, except the clan version splashes 2.5 points harmlessly on otherwise undamaged sections.
DPS: 3.33 versus 2.5
DPH: 1.33 versus .667

It's absolutely /absurd./

In fairness the Tbolt 9S doesnt have any range bonus on the PPCs, so its equal range, and the 5S is not all that good now anyway

[Artifact]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

Let the tears flow Clanners...........let it all out...............

None of the Thuds are OP...........can they face your Timbers on near even ground now? Why yes, amazingly enough, they can..........although only one can really do the whole "bunny hop / bork HSR" thing you guys all seem to do.

Stop complaining, keep running your Timbers and Crows and leave the Thuds alone.

And when TDR-9S's get nerfed (and it will happen -- the current quirks, as I have illustrated using, you know, /math/) your tears will sustain me. I will get on my soap box and laugh at you and accuse you of needing a crutch to win, etc, etc.

You come off as worst sort of internet troll -- both ignorant AND malicious. Maybe I'm getting that wrong, somehow. But I doubt it.

Widowmaker1981, on 23 December 2014 - 07:57 AM, said:

In fairness the Tbolt 9S doesnt have any range bonus on the PPCs, so its equal range, and the 5S is not all that good now anyway

Doh, you're right, my mistake. Velocity != range.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 08:01 AM.

[Gorgo7]

Ah ha! Artifact is getting owned playing CW and now he must vomit forth his reasoning..."It's not my fault! It's the OP Thunderwolfbolt!"

Suck it up princess! One weapon does not make a mech. I run them and they are OK. IS ERPPC are not seen alot because they are terrible weapons. ONE machine (9S) can use a pair usefully with back-up weapons, Three is a fluke and never seems to produce decent results, alpha those pigs and ghost heat will shut you down.

The Clan whining about the IS and their OP machines just goes to prove that it is the younger, slower brothers that tend to migrate to the clans (if not the Federation).

[Artifact]

Gorgo7, on 23 December 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Ah ha! Artifact is getting owned playing CW and now he must vomit forth his reasoning..."It's not my fault! It's the OP Thunderwolfbolt!"

Suck it up princess! One weapon does not make a mech. I run them and they are OK. IS ERPPC are not seen alot because they are terrible weapons. ONE machine (9S) can use a pair usefully with back-up weapons, Three is a fluke and never seems to produce decent results, alpha those pigs and ghost heat will shut you down.

The Clan whining about the IS and their OP machines just goes to prove that it is the younger, slower brothers that tend to migrate to the clans (if not the Federation).

As I stated, I am switching to IS, not quitting CW. If you think that attacking me (NOOB! L2P!! U SUXXORS!) somehow invalidates my point, you're an idiot. Literally, a moron.

The facts are the facts. The TDR-9S quirks are a problem. The DRG-1N quirks are a problem. The AWS-9M quirks are a (much smaller) problem. What's happening here is that terribad IS players finally have a mech that allows them to claim that they are better players because they are beating clan mechs, finally! Clearly, it was just a matter of making things 'fair!'

Except their new toys are better toys. In the hands of well-coordinated premades, the new STK/TDR/DGN quirks are positively absurd. Because, math. The DPS and DPH numbers are all the proof I need.

I'm switching to IS for several reasons, one of which is that it's pretty clear that the balance pendulum will be on the IS side for a while.

What do you have, except for lame ad hominem attacks?

Oh, and for the record, I'm doing fine in CW, considering how I walk away from this game for months at a time, then come back. On both IS and Clan matches. Admittedly, I do worse in IS stuff, because I'm not mastered in a lot of the mechs I'm running, and not used to the mechs, really. I get my share of kills and win my share of matches. Am I the bet MWO player there? Nope. Never claimed to be.

I'm not the one on a comments thread claiming that everything is just fine, when the math makes it clear that it is not. I never claimed I was losing because TDRs are OP -- those sorts of spurious claims are what people like you do. I'm just pointing out the math.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[Phlinger]

Thunderbolts are fine, but, PGI needs to seriously rethink un-nerfing the Clans weapons and put our ERPPC's back to just 15 damage and Medium lasers back to 7dmg 5 heat.

The IS quirks are good, but Clans need what they were intended to have in the first place and were robbed by IS whiners before the Clan mechs were even launched.

[Rebas Kradd]

Easy solution, OP: Take lights. They may not be ideal, but they're a helluva lot harder to hit than Timbercrows.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 23 December 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Artifact]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

And yet you readily admit you are going to jump to a different side because you believe they will have an advantage.......just like you jumped to Clans when they had the advantage..........refer to my post above regarding skill and not needing advantages given to you in order to win.

You claim math blah blah and so forth and that you want "fair" and yet you say nothing about the months of Timbercrutch abuse, fail to address the HSR exploitation etc............all you do is validate every point made about the clans in general and a lot of their players in particular.

I'm going to IS because PGI is going down the same nerf-buff cyclical approach to MMO revenue generation that every other MMO I've ever played has ever done. Rather than spend lots of money, I'm going back to mechs that I already own. I barely played when clans first came out (I have a real life to tend to, for the most part), so I missed the supposedly terrible times where Timberwolves were single-handedly destroying entire IS lances, so, that's hardly an argument worth addressing. I bought my initial clan mechs because I liked clan lore, and the Twolf is probably the most iconic battlemech that FASA came up with.

Make it out however you like. I find it incredibly telling that your mind's first refuge goes to 'oh, he's trying to gain a perceived advantage.' It really does go to show how people like you think. Since you're all about perceived advantage, why should anyone listen to a word you have to say on the topic of obvious TDR-9S imbalance? Apparently, you perceive that you have an advantage. Therefore, it's OP.

The difference between you and me is that I admit it when I take advantage of the system as it currently exists in a competitive game. Well, okay, there are lots of differences between you and me (at least I hope so,) but this is the one that's currently relevant.

Wanting 'revenge' for earlier injustices (as much as they actually existed) is an argument for those who lack any sense of reason.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[R Razor]

Artifact, on 23 December 2014 - 09:02 AM, said:

I'm going to IS because PGI is going down the same nerf-buff cyclical approach to MMO revenue generation that every other MMO I've ever played has ever done. Rather than spend lots of money, I'm going back to mechs that I already own. I barely played when clans first came out, so I missed the supposedly terrible times where Timberwolves were single-handedly destroying entire IS lances.

Make it out however you like. I find it incredibly telling that your mind's first refuge goes to 'oh, he's trying to gain a perceived advantage.' It really does go to show how people like you think. Since you're all about perceived advantage, why should anyone listen to a word you have to say on the topic of obvious TDR-9S imbalance? Apparently, you perceive that you have an advantage. Therefore, it's OP.

Wanting 'revenge' for earlier injustices (as much as they actually existed) is an argument for those who lack any sense of reason.

I don't have to make anything up.........you whine and say the pendulum is swinging to the IS in terms of advantage and you are switching to IS.......you make my case for me. You need advantages to win.........some of us have played from the beginning without ever hopping on the advantage bandwagon...........we don't need them to maintain a positive W/L or K/D and we don't need them to have fun in a video game.........our lives don't revolve around a "win at all costs" mentality and our self worth isn't measured in such a manner.


This entire thread is a pointless joke.........it's nothing more than folks that have held almost every advantage there is to hold in a game crying because PGI finally got around to doing something to bring balance a little closer to even. When you have people openly admitting that they will switch sides in order to jump to what is perceived to be an advantaged side it's very telling as to what kind of person they really are.

Ronyn, on 23 December 2014 - 09:07 AM, said:

[Redacted]

Report on..........at least you've put it in writing now and PGI can see you're merely trolling. You can't come up with a valid counterpoint so you resort to running and telling mommy and daddy.

Keep complaining about the Thuds...........and ignoring your own advantages, I'm sure PGI will believe every word you say.

Edited by John Wolf, 23 December 2014 - 02:18 PM.
Moderated Quote

[Phlinger]

[Redacted]


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Edited by John Wolf, 23 December 2014 - 02:20 PM.
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[Oderint dum Metuant]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 07:41 AM, said:

although only one can really do the whole "bunny hop / bork HSR" thing you guys all seem to do.

Doesn't everyone use JJ on every mech that can take them to avoid or spread incoming fire?
I mean im pretty sure (110%) that i see more than just TW's doing this.

The fact it has a problem in doing so is something PGI should have solved before now but people will still JJ to spread dmg post fix, so you might want to step down off that soap box.

[Artifact]

R Razor, on 23 December 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

Keep complaining about the Thuds...........and ignoring your own advantages, I'm sure PGI will believe every word you say.

And I'm QUITE sure PGI will eventually nerf TDRs. You know why? I'm right. You're wrong. PGI will be forced to make the change once EVERY IS CW drop deck includes a TDR, despite all of the other IS 60-65 ton choices. And then I will laugh at you.

Edited by Artifact, 23 December 2014 - 09:16 AM.

[R Razor]

DV McKenna, on 23 December 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Doesn't everyone use JJ on every mech that can take them to avoid or spread incoming fire?
I mean im pretty sure (110%) that i see more than just TW's doing this.

The fact it has a problem in doing so is something PGI should have solved before now but people will still JJ to spread dmg post fix, so you might want to step down off that soap box.

Oh most definitely...........and when you watch streams from IS comp teams you'll see Boatloads of Firestarters doing it as well.......

My point is, the best heavy mech in the game, bar none, is the Timberwolf, I'm sure most would agree on that point. That mech, in addition to being the best in the game, has the ability to exploit the HSR issue by utilizing its JJ's. Combine that with its speed and firepower capability and it's almost Godlike compared to any other heavy in the game. Now, the IS finally has a mech that can fight on near equal terms, and folks that run these Timberwolves are screaming for nerfs. Some of them come across as only being satisfied as long as they hold all of the hole card advantages, going so far as to admit they will change sides in order to maintain that perceived advantage.

Surely I can't be the only one that sees this.