229 replies to this topic

[Brody319]

Ghost Badger, on 22 December 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Statement like this make me wonder if we're playing the same game. Orions are terrible.



Congratulations. Now you understand why I'm complaining about the map design itself, not the tech of EITHER side. Lol.

Defenders on either side stacking long range weapons on an icy cold map that favors standing in ONE spot and covering both gates are gonna win.

My only comment on ERPPC's versus hitscan was to those individuals crying that they're OP. They're really NOT, one for one, at the range map encourages.

I've suggested some map changes but PGI won't be able to fix anything really till after their break so its pretty pointless since it will probably get buried by more people complaining about wait times, Clans being OP, or how much they wish they "could be good at game"

[AlmightyAeng]

Brody319, on 22 December 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

I've suggested some map changes but PGI won't be able to fix anything really till after their break so its pretty pointless since it will probably get buried by more people complaining about wait times, Clans being OP, or how much they wish they "could be good at game"

Dude, if I ran into an IS 12-man that full of coordinated 3 ERPPC Thuds and AWS-9M's on Boreal I'd complain about the map design, too. Clans just have the unfortunate convergence of a bunch of mechs that run ERLL and Timby's that jump on the mountain above the gates for an even LONGER sightline. When I actually get to defend that map I abuse 2ERLL and 2 Gauss on a Crab just as effectively.

Personally these days Clan/IS is feeling pretty balanced to me...it's the map itself that's lending itself to an overwhelmingly effective playstyle on defense. *shrug*

Edited by Ghost Badger, 22 December 2014 - 10:59 AM.

[Jon Gotham]

Monkey Lover, on 20 December 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Maybe once i stop seeing clan teams with at least 50% timbers ALL GAME.

When I run clans I have not one Timber in my deck. They are op and I refuse to use them.

[Koniks]

Kruiser, on 22 December 2014 - 07:34 AM, said:

Thunderbolt is pin point damage. Laser Vom is hitscan. These two methods of damage are not equal. Pin point always wins out, nothing new there.

Nothing wrong with the Thunderbolt being powerful, but giving it superior pin point capability it's going to stick out like a sore thumb in terms of effectiveness.

You try to run pin point on a T-wolf or S-crow you will not match the Thunderbolts ability to trade with pinpoint.

...

Yes you can poke out of cover and vomit 2 cERLL and 4 cERML from a T-wolf. But do that when 12 guys are all spitting 30 pin point alphas at you. You can't twist as you need to keep your lasers on target for 1.5 seconds, while the ERPPC Thud twists away and spreads your laser damage over his entire torso the moment he's fired his alpha. Enjoy getting cored out just to spread 50 damage over 3 or 4 sections of a heavy mech.

TBR 4xERLL builds put out 22 damage in a volley, 33-44 if they pay the ghost heat price. TBR mixed laser builds put out more like 55 damage in a volley although there's obviously a range penalty.

The TDR puts out 20 with no ghost heat, 30 with. And if they're chainfiring then it's damage over time, not burst. If they pair it with Gauss, it's 35 damage but they also have the Gauss charge and cooldown to deal with.

The TBR also has jump jets, a 10kph advantage, and crit bonuses from a targeting computer.

Focus fire is a red herring. Clans can play that game, too.

Clans could counter with 2xGauss+2xERPPC or 2xGauss+2xERLL+2xERML Dire Wolves if they wanted. Or just refuse to play the long range trade game and take brawler builds.

Edited by Mizeur, 22 December 2014 - 11:17 AM.

[Akula]

Mizeur, on 22 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

TBR 4xERLL builds put out 22 damage in a volley, 33-44 if they pay the ghost heat price. TBR mixed laser builds put out more like 55 damage in a volley although there's obviously a range penalty.

The TDR puts out 20 with no ghost heat, 30 with. And if they're chainfiring then it's damage over time, not burst. If they pair it with Gauss, it's 35 damage but they also have the Gauss charge and cooldown to deal with.

The TBR also has jump jets, a 10kph advantage, and crit bonuses from a targeting computer.

Focus fire is a red herring. Clans can play that game, too.

Clans could counter with 2xGauss+2xERPPC or 2xGauss+2xERLL+2xERML Dire Wolves if they wanted. Or just refuse to play the long range trade game and take brawler builds.

I never said the Thunderbolt is a better mech. The Timberwolf is by far the superior chassis. I am specifically talking about the weapons and the damage that these mech apply. If I could take the IS ERPPCs with the Thunderbolt's quirks on a T-Wolf I would in a heartbeat. Furthermore as I've previously pointed out hitscan loses out to pin point in trades, due to instantly firing nature of pinpoint which allows you to ridge/cover peak and torso twist to spread incoming damage.

And I'm so glad your brought up the Dire Wolf. Yes it is the king of pinpoint (the King Crab is making a strong argument mind you) but it's a 100 ton assault mech which in community warfare means you're going to end up taking a clan light. IS players can take assault mechs with no worries as the IS light mechs that they are then forced to take are great machines. Clan lights are terribly tonnage inefficient in CW. And I think it also says something about my point on Clan pin point damage when the comparative you offer of a 65 ton heavy is to a 100 ton assault mech.

Edited by Kruiser, 22 December 2014 - 12:20 PM.

[Ngamok]

Brody319, on 21 December 2014 - 01:59 PM, said:

I think people say they are seeing nothing but stormcrows and timberwolves, but in reality those are just the only mechs they notice. Because in reality, when I play CW (Which has no ELO by the way so don't pull that ****) I see Adders, Warhawks, Hellbringers, Kit foxes, and occasionally a Gargoyle and Summoner probably people just trying them out but never the less they are present.

I don't. All I see from big groups of clans is Timber Wolves and Stormcrows. If it's a big pug team then I'll see Summoners, Novas, and Kit Foxes as well.

[Ngamok]

Kruiser, on 22 December 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

More than welcome!



Now hang on. I can spin this in the opposite direction just as easily. Yes you can poke out of cover and vomit 2 cERLL and 4 cERML from a T-wolf. But do that when 12 guys are all spitting 30 pin point alphas at you. You can't twist as you need to keep your lasers on target for 1.5 seconds, while the ERPPC Thud twists away and spreads your laser damage over his entire torso the moment he's fired his alpha. Enjoy getting cored out just to spread 50 damage over 3 or 4 sections of a heavy mech.

You see it. It's pretty easy to spin an over the top story showing how desperately bad things are. I'm not interested in dramatics myself, I'm just stating that currently the IS have a pretty large pin point damage advantage over the clans.

Put ER PPCs on your TBR as well.

[MechaBattler]

Kruiser, on 22 December 2014 - 12:16 PM, said:

If I could take the IS ERPPCs with the Thunderbolt's quirks on a T-Wolf I would in a heartbeat.

Well of course. Then it would be redonkulously OP. The whole idea behind quirks is to make mechs more in line with tier 1 mechs. So the only reason to nerf them is if they are indeed superior to Timberwolves. Otherwise IS players are just doing what Clan players do with their drop builds, using the best mechs their faction has to offer.

[Farix]

<crossposted from another topic>

How do you determine if the Thunderbolt (and specifically the TDR-9S) is OP? The real proof is in the CW results. Since the Steiners have switched to heavily use the TDR-9S, they have been fighting the Falcons to a standstill. IF it was actually OP against clan mechs, then they would be making significant gains against the Clans instead. But we are not seeing that.

[Sanlucif3r]

if you're worried about a thunderboolt with 3 erppc, thendrop in an awesome with 3erppc and shoot exatly the same but with more armor, solved.

except of the weight thing, the quirks are a bit too much for the tonnage on that mech, that much i agree with. maybe that quirk IS a little bit imba

Edited by Sanlucif3r, 22 December 2014 - 06:33 PM.

[Gorgo7]

Thunderbolts are OP...NOW I HAVE HEARD EVERYTHING!

Edited by Gorgo7, 22 December 2014 - 08:40 PM.

[Lord Auriel]

I can only shake my head about this. Thunderbolt is not OP, the Timberwolf is.

But you know what? It's fine, keep your TBRs and let us have our TDRs, mechs that were completely useless until the quirkening. Now they are actually "good", but still not as good as clans. However that is somewhat balanced by the clan's lack of good lights.

[psihius]

But what about my Wubwerine!?

[Lord Auriel]

the wubverine is lovely and sweet

BTW I totally agree about the maps!

PGI if you read this.. I am sure you've heard this before but map design is really your weak point. Get some pros to do that, it's no shame to admit you're having problems with map design (I mean TOPOLOGY; not shiny sparkly stuff)

I don't play CW anymore because it's not fun to me with those maps. It's just a tower defense mini-game...

Edited by Lord Auriel, 22 December 2014 - 11:22 PM.

[ZenFool]

Sandpit, on 20 December 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

I've never considered clans &quot;op&quot;

With that said, you're going to see TONS of stuff like this over the next few weeks. You'll see groups of mechs and loadouts for a while, then someone will figure out a counter, than it will move on to something else. That's a natural progression. Some players ahve found a way for them to compete at longer ranges with clan tech, no biggy.

Exactly.

Personally I'm enjoying the use of my thunderbolt. It was the only heavy I mastered and I sold all of them because they simply weren't good. I got the 9S back (thx PGI) and it finally has a purpose. Just remember that on hot maps it is like a clan mech, only good at limited sniping. An all out rush turns it to slag just like a lot of the VERY common clan laser builds for crows and wolves. Oh noes, IS has one chassis that can almost compete at range, whatever shall we do... You'll figure out a build soon enough that exploits the tbolts xl and heat issues and the gerbil wheel of mech evolution will shift again. Don't go down the "nerf everything" road so many people take.

[Podex]

I've only fought against IS in CW. Seen lots of Thunderbolts, but never really paid that much attention to them. OP? Hardly. Tag + LRMs seem to do me in more than anything else. Maybe it's really just a matter of not standing in someone's line of fire.

[Sagamore]

Been playing 3 TDRs in my drop deck rounded out with an Ember. Might drop one and go back to Commando / Battlemaster though.

[Davegt27]

Quote

I'm just curious as to how many more games I need to drop in and see 4-5 Thunderbolts all sitting on the boreal vault hill with triple ERPPCs before I go crazy.

Thunderbolt quirks... 50% less heat generated with ERPPC 25% faster firing rate. 12.5% faster speed.

They can fire these things for days on cold maps. And then when they finally die, welp, here comes the 7xMPLAS Thunderwub!.

That's only 130 tons on a drop deck. You still have room for an assault and a light. Or a heavy and a firestarter.

Maybe because I'm I clanner, I don't see all the frustrating builds you IS people deal with, but I'm getting really tired of all your over quirked mechs. Its one thing to 'balance' a mech for a single drop. But in CW you can spam these 'bad' mechs with disgusting quirks for days on end.

Am I the only one that feels this way? if so tell me to man up and get on with my life. If not, tell me how to deal with this stress.

it took me a while to realize this is a troll post to get rid of competition

a real low move in my book
why not ask to buff your own mechs

[Demuder]

Ghost Badger, on 22 December 2014 - 10:49 AM, said:

Statement like this make me wonder if we're playing the same game. Orions are terrible.

Come on, Orions are not terrible. They are very good at certain things. I could out-brawl almost anything in my AC20/SRM/MLAS ONI-K. And I didn't even have quirks back then. Long range ? Yeah, it doesn't work both ways, I'll give you that.

Mizeur, on 22 December 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

TBR 4xERLL builds put out 22 damage in a volley, 33-44 if they pay the ghost heat price. TBR mixed laser builds put out more like 55 damage in a volley although there's obviously a range penalty.

The TDR puts out 20 with no ghost heat, 30 with. And if they're chainfiring then it's damage over time, not burst. If they pair it with Gauss, it's 35 damage but they also have the Gauss charge and cooldown to deal with.

The TBR also has jump jets, a 10kph advantage, and crit bonuses from a targeting computer.

Focus fire is a red herring. Clans can play that game, too.

Clans could counter with 2xGauss+2xERPPC or 2xGauss+2xERLL+2xERML Dire Wolves if they wanted. Or just refuse to play the long range trade game and take brawler builds.

Hold on, you are comparing damage numbers without taking into consideration the heat they generate and the face time you need. ERLL means 1,5 sec facetime, not only exposing yourself but also giving your target A LOT of time to move and spread or outright evade it. How can you compare 44 points of that to a sneak-peek of 30 ? And do compare how many alphas of 44 points and 30 points each can deliver before shutting down. Now if you are talking about people that are just trading shots in Main Street at sunrise, sure, the TBR might win. I would bet on the TDR though myself.

Btw, chainfiring PPCs is 3 separate PPFLD. It's not hitscan. Still, would you honestly take 1,5 sec hitscan over 3 PPFLD hits in 1,5sec ?

Also, the TDR has a big profile, but nothing compared to the barn door the TBR is.

Did I mention that torso-twisting is useless on most Clan mechs ? Unless one considers torso twisting simply sacrificing half the mech and it's weapons.

Now, because the above comparison of the two leaves the TBR lacking, the TBR gets JJs and a speed advantage. Albeit the ability to relocate more easily so it can cool off or keep its distance from the target, because you know, the armament you just mentioned makes it quite subpar or outright useless in a fight under 500m. It's too hot or too close to track a moving target with a beam of 1,5 sec duration. Pinpoint front loaded damage from the TDR is not that bad though, and it's cooler in the first place. Hey it might even one-shot a slow moving Clan light harassing him if needed. Good luck doing the reverse in the 4 ERLL TBR you mentioned.

Now, if that isn't balance, I don't know what it is. If you don't think it's balanced, please tell us how you imagine fixing it.

Focus fire from IS is half PPFLD from ACs/PPCs (screen shake of doom) and half hitscan from lasers. Focus fire from Clan is hitscan (pretty lights mostly). Which would you prefer to roast under ?

2xGauss+2xERPPC is a completely sniping build, useless for anything other that opening the gate generator. And sniping enemy mechs your team has broken themselves against first while you were hiding behind a rock in normal mode skirmish. I though we were talking CW here. Are you honestly suggesting 100 ton assaults that can be seen from orbit as a counter to a 75 ton mech ?

I am sorry, I am still looking for that OP TBR build that will make my foes run away from me (and die in the process) in all ranges, in all heat conditions, etc. Because sure, 4xERLL TBR is good at long range. Hell, I'll delete everything above and say it's slightly better than the TDR. It sucks close range, it sucks for sustained fire. It is useless for anything else in CW other than taking out the generator and shooting foolish XL engine Atlai that want to snipe me with their one ERLL (because they are too slow for my hitscan and since they try to snipe, they surely as hell do not know how to torso twist). For everything else, it sucks. Where's the OP-ness ?

[Widowmaker1981]

Squirtbox, on 21 December 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Just FYI you can run 3ERPPC on the 9S with a standard engine. It's a bit warm but it can be done.

Its not even a bit warm. its fine.. STD 290, 3xERPPC, 16DHS. People running XLs in Thuds are doing it wrong.

And if you want super range hitscan ERLLs try 5SS with 4xERLL. 911 meter range, 15% heat reduction..

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 23 December 2014 - 04:09 AM.