1236 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Poorer mechs can be brought up in other ways...

Yes. And will be, too. But ES/FF brings them closer first, requiring less extreme measures elsewhere in a totally harmless way.

Quote

The TBR and SCR lead their classes because of their "optimized" base chassis, yes? The Arctic Cheetah would in a way be the Timberwolf of the light class. It's available since 3037 too, so no timeline conflicts. To get into specifics...

Weight: 30 tons (not 35 tons, but workable)
Internal Structure: Endo
Armor Type: FF
Pod space: 8.5 tons (with max armor)
Engine: XL240 (top speed 142 kph with Speed Tweak)
Hardwired equipment: 6 JJs (more than most people would want, but for lights JJs are more useful than other classes)
Heatsinks: 10 hardwired (only 1 external "Poordub")
Hardpoints:
Prime: 4E + 2M + ECM
Alt A: 2E + 2M (sub-par variant)
Alt B: 1B + 2E (fairly bad variant)
Alt C: 7E
Alt D: 1E + 2M (fairly bad variant)

Even if we got the "bad" alternate variants, the Prime is still a beast so it wouldn't matter.

Yes, the Arctic Cheetah is a beast. I still don't see why you keep bringing it up? How is it relevant to this conversation?

It'll be a Light Class Timberwolf. I agree completely. That's why we have faction wide nerfs happening alongside this. Because that's about the only way to get the really potent clan mechs nerfed without totally ruining everything else or just hammering them into the dirt with negative quirks (which nobody enjoys).

Quote

And my point was that there would still be hardwired inequalities present no matter what we choose to unlock. Reduced, yes, but not eliminated.

But reduced, allowing more gentle adjustments elsewhere. Quirks still, in some cases, but not massive quirks like the low-tier IS mechs got. As I've said, it's not strictly necessary to unlock ES/FF. Just that it's harmless to do so, and is a very easy way to help balance the Clan chassis internally.

Quote

What I meant was that much of the time, the default weapon coincidentally has inherit weaknesses that cause it to be cast aside for whatever reason (i.e. that LB 10-X on the Centy). Or a Thor's ERPPC (after the nerfs), etc. The point of the quirks would be to try to make up for those weaknesses.

And that does make that otherwise crappy weapon usable, but from the IS quirk experience it also makes those the only weapons that get used on that chassis. That's fine for IS - it's great, they get a good variety of usable weapons and a hell of a lot of very usable chassis as a result. It would work for Clans too, but then you'd end up with the same thing happening with clans. To each their own, I suppose.

Quote

Also, you missed the part at the end where I said that it was mostly a spitballing attempt, and some other stuff about why we're even having this conversion in the first place.

I didn't miss that, but didn't have a comment directly. I understood it was spitballing; I was just explaining why I wasn't fond of said spitball It WOULD work, but... I just think we'd lose some flavour in the process. ES/FF is broad. It won't do it all, but the only cases where it would have any affect at all would be in the cases where it helps narrow the gap... and at the same time it wouldn't limit optimal build flexibility the way weapon specific quirks do.

[Jacon Ceronia]

KuroNyra, on 22 December 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

Prequirck: "Hey look, I did fine with my Locust so that fine is completly on pair with the others!"

So, because you can't make it work...

[F4T 4L]

Jacon Ceronia, on 22 December 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

You guys are serious with the pitchforks over this? I love my Summoner, and this wasn't even that great of a match...

Hehe.. I can ping you a few screenshots from my pre-quirk Huggin, will that prove it was an _awesome_ mech..

No.

So answer the question:

"Ok. Tell me how a summoner (any variant) is better than a TBR-S, in any meaningful way?

Edit, never mind "better". "As good as" is fine."

[0bsidion]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

That's true, but again: You can't start fixing weapons while the mechs are so out of balance. Make UAC's better, and the strong Clan mechs use them and become even stronger.

Clan UAC's are terrible, even on the Direwolf. You boat them, take 6, and they're still bad but you've still got a hell of a lot of tons there. UAC direwolves are one of the worst of the common builds, and that's why you only see them in random lower-level pug play. Basically, Direwolves run dual gauss + other stuff, pretty much without fail. Dakka direwolves are silly, if fun.

So, yeah, you won't see PGI make a balance pass on the UAC's as things stand, because while it'd help the poor clan mechs, it would make the good ones even better, and they don't want that.

Maybe, but then again, those builds that people point at for being 'meta' or 'op' or 'broken' aren't usually packing cUACs are they? The usual culprits are gauss, ppcs, and maybe the (S)SRM builds.

[1453 R]

FupDup:

Why do you figure the Timber Wolf should be a ho-hum, totally boring who-cares-about-this-thing heavy in the pile? It's supposed to be an iconic, even legendary machine as well as being one of the faces of the franchise. I dont understand the desire to make it bad. It'd be like Pirahna saying "hey guys, we got Harmony Gold to let us implement the Marauder! Buuuuuut...we decided to give it crap hitboxes, terrible negaquirks, a low engine cap, abd this other stuff so that it's not really any good and only there for nostalgia value...but you can still use it! So hurray!"

Like Wintersdark said, SOMETHING has to be the best. Why not let it be the Timber Wolf, instead of some piece of bastardized Capellan rattletrap hodgepodge garbage only 'designed' in the first place because the Cappies can't help but give Hanse anything he decides he wants?

#fuckcataphracts4ever

[KuroNyra]

Jacon Ceronia, on 22 December 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

So, because you can't make it work...

Because one game is not enought to prove a mech is fine.

I already had excellent game with the Summoner but they weren't like the games I could usually have with Thunderbolts, Shadow Hawk etc...
It is not for nothing the Summoner is one of the lower tier clan mech.

A result is not a proove.

The Thor/Summoner is overall underperforming compared to the others mech like the Loki/Hellbringer, the Vulture/Mad Dog and let's not talk about the Mad Cat/Timber Wolf

[Wintersdark]

Jacon Ceronia, on 22 December 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

You guys are serious with the pitchforks over this? I love my Summoner, and this wasn't even that great of a match...

Do you sincerely not understand the issue? Individual performance with a mech is irrelevant in terms of overall balance considerations, as in cases like this it's heavily impacted by many factors: Elo rating of you vs. your team vs. enemy team, skill (not to be confused with Elo) of you vs. your team vs. enemy team.

Consider, if you will, two imaginary weapons equipable on the same mech.

Orange Laser: 1 ton, 1 slot, 400m range, 5 damage.
Violet Laser: 1 ton, 1 slot, 400m range, 4 damage.

Now, I post a shot showing where I got 1000 damage with Violet Lasers. Clearly, Violet Lasers aren't broken then, right? There's no balance problem here at all.

Can you not see how that's an entirely useless argument? Yeah, I did fine with Violet Lasers. I'd have done better with Orange Lasers, though.

All else (pilots, etc) being equal, the Timberwolf is so much better than the Summoner for many, many reasons - with FAR outstrips the minor tonnage difference.

And, I do respect that different pilots will do better in different mechs, typically those they enjoy more. See Bishop Steiner with regards to pre-quirk Vindicators, as an example. Did you feel that (pre-quirk) Vindicators where as good as/close to(with regards to tonnage) Shadowhawks?

[Jacon Ceronia]

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

So answer the question:

Tell me how a summoner (any variant) is better than a TBR-S, in any meaningful way?

Funny. I have a feeling that I could post proof all day, and it would go largely unnoticed, but those that can't make it work (or choose not to invest the time to make it work) would rather bemoan here, and ask those that are happy with it to 'type out' why it's as good as a Timber Wolf. Sure, I only posted the results of one match, but this is not one great match among many failures. The mech is a solid performer. Period. Frankly, I'm surprised that more Shadowhawk pilots aren't a natural fit for the Summoner. *shrug*

[F4T 4L]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:45 AM, said:

No, I'm the guy that never even BOUGHT a TBR. Have played it.

The range of usability of the mechs *should* be reasonably small (if by "range" you mean "variance", with as few outliers as possible). But the fact that there is no reason to choose a SMN over a TBR is almost entirely the fault of the TBR being godlikealphazetaomegakyoninstagib tier good.

Aaah.. so you've never played an _elited_ tbr, but they're still god-like, compared to _any_ is heavy. Right.


I said what I meant, you re-phrase it all you like, ducky.

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

FupDup:

Why do you figure the Timber Wolf should be a ho-hum, totally boring who-cares-about-this-thing heavy in the pile? It's supposed to be an iconic, even legendary machine as well as being one of the faces of the franchise.

I guess because this is a multi-player video-game, and balance should be king.

FOR BALANCE CORE RULE IGNORE!

Edit: Isn't the same supposed to be true of the Fatlas?

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 12:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

Yes, the Arctic Cheetah is a beast. I still don't see why you keep bringing it up? How is it relevant to this conversation?

Because it would affect inter-Clan equality for its weight class. Right now the most egregrious offenders, SCR and TBR, are in part caused by being blessed with Endo + FF while other Omnis in their class generally lack one or both. So, you noticed that and want to let the others use Endo in order to remove that one variable from the equation.

At the current moment, engines aren't the largest inequality within the Clans themselves, so you're skipping over that variable. In the future, however, engines have the potential to cause drastic shifts in the inter-Clan meta, as with this one light mech that I keep bringing up. Basically, we're gonna need to do more than Endo unlocking no matter what.

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

It'll be a Light Class Timberwolf. I agree completely. That's why we have faction wide nerfs happening alongside this. Because that's about the only way to get the really potent clan mechs nerfed without totally ruining everything else or just hammering them into the dirt with negative quirks (which nobody enjoys).

Faction wide nerfs would hurt the Puma, Uller, and Koshi just as much as the Cheetah...same problem we've had with the TBR, SCR, and DWF up to this point.

[The Boz]

Wintersdark, on 22 December 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Because if the rest of the Clan mechs where CLOSER to what the Timberwolf is, then faction wide changes can be made to bring all clan mechs in line with the IS mechs, including the Timberwolf.

I thought we'd already established this earlier in the thread?

When someone says "buff SMN to TBR levels", why would I ever assume that someone also means "so that we can nerf both the SMN and the TBR at the same time down so that Clans aren't > IS again" if that person made no post along those lines yet?

KuroNyra, on 22 December 2014 - 11:48 AM, said:

You never bought one, so you don't know how frustating the system can be to create the Omnimech who will work on the battlefield.
Try buying a Summoner, and have fun with trying to find a good build for it...

That guy is one of the dumbest troll you can find on the forum sadly. You would have better chance speaking to a wall sadly.

1. Never, EVER go to the in-game mechlab without a finished build on smurfy's. The "it's frustrating to make good" argument can be made for over half the mechs, for varying definitions of "frustrating" and "good".
2. TIL the definition of a troll is "someone who disagrees with me, but has arguments more solid than mine".

F4T 4L, on 22 December 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Aaah.. so you've never played an _elited_ tbr, but they're still god-like, compared to _any_ is heavy. Right.

I have. There's such a thing as "a friend has it on his account". Also, if I deem an unelited mech better than an elited one, that's not a point for the "unelited mech is not OP" crowd.

[F4T 4L]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

When someone says "buff SMN to TBR levels", why would I ever assume that someone also means "so that we can nerf both the SMN and the TBR at the same time down so that Clans aren't > IS again" if that person made no post along those lines yet?


1. Never, EVER go to the in-game mechlab without a finished build on smurfy's. The "it's frustrating to make good" argument can be made for over half the mechs, for varying definitions of "frustrating" and "good".
2. TIL the definition of a troll is "someone who disagrees with me, but has arguments more solid than mine".


I have. There's such a thing as "a friend has it on his account". Also, if I deem an unelited mech better than an elited one, that's not a point for the "unelited mech is not OP" crowd.

Thx for playing.

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

FupDup:

Why do you figure the Timber Wolf should be a ho-hum, totally boring who-cares-about-this-thing heavy in the pile? It's supposed to be an iconic, even legendary machine as well as being one of the faces of the franchise. I dont understand the desire to make it bad.
...

Most people don't want to make it bad. There's a difference between making a mech bad and allowing other mechs to compete against it.

It's totally valid to disagree over how to allow other mechs to compete with it (i.e. either nerf the outlier or buff everything else to its level) but you're gonna have a hard time convincing me that we should just give up, stop trying, and bend over to accept our overlords.

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Like Wintersdark said, SOMETHING has to be the best.

I consider that to be defeatism. No, we don't have to have a metagame where people only use a handful of weapons on a handful of specific chassis. The main obstacle to overcome here is complacency (see above).

1453 R, on 22 December 2014 - 12:00 PM, said:

Why not let it be the Timber Wolf, instead of some piece of bastardized Capellan rattletrap hodgepodge garbage only 'designed' in the first place because the Cappies can't help but give Hanse anything he decides he wants?

#fuckcataphracts4ever

I'd rather let it be none, with each robot bringing their own merits to the table that help their team win in their own (worthy) way, without any of them being the clear optimal choice.

But then again, maybe I'm just spoiled by TF2 where Valve made an attempt to give each class their own strengths and weaknesses, with unlockable weapons that had pros/cons of their own without being direct upgrades (usually).

[F4T 4L]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Most people don't want to make it bad. There's a difference between making a mech bad and allowing other mechs to compete against it.

It's totally valid to disagree over how to allow other mechs to compete with it (i.e. either nerf the outlier or buff everything else to its level) but you're gonna have a hard time convincing me that we should just give up, stop trying, and bend over to accept our overlords.



I consider that to be defeatism. No, we don't have to have a metagame where people only use a handful of weapons on a handful of specific chassis. The main obstacle to overcome here is complacency (see above).



I'd rather let it be none, with each robot bringing their own merits to the table that help their team win in their own (worthy) way, without any of them being the clear optimal choice.

But then again, maybe I'm just spoiled by TF2 where Valve made an attempt to give each class their own strengths and weaknesses, with unlockable weapons that had pros/cons of their own without being direct upgrades (usually).

The voice of reason. Thankyou!

That TF2 reference was a mistake tho..

INB4: COD naab, this is BattleTech!!

Edited by F4T 4L, 22 December 2014 - 12:35 PM.

[KuroNyra]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

1. Never, EVER go to the in-game mechlab without a finished build on smurfy's. The "it's frustrating to make good" argument can be made for over half the mechs, for varying definitions of "frustrating" and "good".
2. TIL the definition of a troll is "someone who disagrees with me, but has arguments more solid than mine".

1. Because smurfy allow you to use the loadout in battle Quiaff?
2. Solid Argument? You? Is it already the First April?

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 22 December 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

All of the current lights, mediums and heavies (and the Gargoyle as well) that the Clans have are locked into some variety of Laser Vomit or Missile Splat builds.

If CUAC 5s weren't so bad on spread a few of the heavies could run 2x UAC5s or similar, but they are still going to fill the build with lasers.


The tonnage just isn't there for much else, due to the size of their engines and the locked DHS you might as well use.



Broadly speaking every over-engined clan mech that gets released will be judged on how many CERMLAS it can fit on the build.

As a min-maxer of sorts, I like finding what I can do what I'm given... except for something like the Mist Lynx, Ice Ferret, or even Gargoyle. That doesn't mean I'll get bad builds, but if you're talking about diversity... it is closer to non-existent. The tonnage availability (indirectly affected by locked engines) greatly determines the use (and technically excessive use) of med lasers.

It works both ways (IS vs Clan), and if you're trying to argue that is it bad... it's a reasonably natural way of designing a mech.

Bad Clan UACs and "ACs" don't help either, but LBX in the equivalent section should be OK by comparison.

Med lasers (including Clan ERMEDs) will always be a staple weapon, so complaining about it is folly. It won't however stop people from bringing 6 med lasers on a Quickdraw or Sparky when they could be doing better replacing a few med lasers with a PPC, Large Laser, or Large Pulse Laser.... oh well.

Ultimatum X, on 22 December 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

I'm OK with breaking the status quo, and IS quirks for "cheesy" builds did exactly that.

Super quirks for ER PPCs is why we can now find a Thunderbolt 9S on the field, or a 5SS.









A few degrees of twist? No.

But the point is that those two mechs are both less maneuverable than the Summoner, with the poster I was responding to saying it's not maneuverable enough. After a week in 300 STD engine Thunderbolts the Summoner feels like a ballerina.



The ability to not die when the SMN loses a side torso? Yes.

Typically I'd say the ability to customize Omni-pods as well, but that's where I think the Summoner is most lacking (choice of omni-pods) and I'd like to see more options added to the Summoner.


Some other points:

• You can keep limited arm yaw as long as you don't slot PPCs/Ballistics in both arms.
  
• I've argued, against you ironically, that the Summoner should be allowed to remove some JJs.

As I said above, you can maintain limited yaw if you keep the lower arm actuator on one of the arms by not slotting PPC/Ballistics there.



If you want to be fair, once you actually compare it to Cataphracts with multiple PPCs and/or Ballistics, they are dropping down to 300 or even 280 engines (AC10x2 + PPC build for example).

To be fair, most decent Cataphract builds (PPC and/or AC focused builds) use the high torso mounts, so arm articulation tends to be irrelevant in the conversation.

Summoner still has superior torso twist based on how the engines-torso twist/turn speed works plus there are no torso twist quirks on the Thunderbolts or Cataphracts.

BTW, is the Summoner-F a real variant because I don't see a skunkworks/solaris7 loadout on it (and unsure of timeline)?

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 11:28 AM, said:

If we had those 8 MG Omnipods McGral found in the game files, along with some hitbox redistribution, I think that the Nova could be extremely vicious in close/medium range and actually able to out-damage a Crow by a big margin (at the cost of less speed and not as much durability).

Quick correction: the 8MG was my own creation, you'll notice they aren't all straight; just a quick copy paste job.

The only additional MG was the Left Arm, along with a single B slot for every B weapon. I think it's the same variant that has the SRM4. Otherwise, I think it's just the 3rd AMS hardpoint +LT E hardpoint and missile slot that aren't in game. Nothing that could have a big impact, unlike double MGs.


The Nova U STs, while in no way hinted by PGI, I think could help the chassis greatly in a particular niche, of high heat and low heat firepower, as well as devastating short range firepower (at the expensive of being goddamned huge)
Of course, there's also the issue of 16 maximum weapons, which the NopeVa can already exceed with the AMS.
The Nova-U head also mounts a Jesus Box.
Though, this thread isn't for the NopeVa.


The summoner only has that single LT Energy hardpoint that's not in the game. My best guess is the M variant from 3051; which has a SSRM6 and ERSL in the LT. So, the best LT in the game. Missile boating with a TAG, or high mounted PPCs.

Edited by Mcgral18, 22 December 2014 - 12:56 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 22 December 2014 - 12:51 PM, said:

The summoner only has that single LT Energy hardpoint that's not in the game. My best guess is the M variant from 3051; which has a SSRM6 and ERSL in the LT. So, the best LT in the game. Missile boating with a TAG, or high mounted PPCs.

Is the Summoner-F real? I see it on sarna, but no loadout info that I can dig...

[Bishop Steiner]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Wait, so the goal is now officially "get the Summoner up to TimberWolf quality"?

Uh...not what was said by the OP, and end of day, that's who is running this particular rodeo.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 22 December 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Because it would affect inter-Clan equality for its weight class. Right now the most egregrious offenders, SCR and TBR, are in part caused by being blessed with Endo + FF while other Omnis in their class generally lack one or both. So, you noticed that and want to let the others use Endo in order to remove that one variable from the equation.

To bring them all closer together, yes.

Quote

At the current moment, engines aren't the largest inequality within the Clans themselves, so you're skipping over that variable. In the future, however, engines have the potential to cause drastic shifts in the inter-Clan meta, as with this one light mech that I keep bringing up. Basically, we're gonna need to do more than Endo unlocking no matter what.

Yes, I agree. And I also feel changing engines isn't the answer. Lights in particular are an issue here.

Quote

Faction wide nerfs would hurt the Puma, Uller, and Koshi just as much as the Cheetah...same problem we've had with the TBR, SCR, and DWF up to this point.

Yes. I'm not sure why we're arguing here, as I'm entirely in agreement.

Even pre-Cheetah, ES/FF won't fix Clan Lights. They'll need quirks too.

I just feel ES/FF is an important first step, as it's a substantial random nerf to a bunch of Clan chassis for no real reason - that is, I mean, a big nerf to a few chassis not because they were powerful, but just because TableTop.


Also, in regards to later posts:

I don't think the Timberwolf should be the best mech ever. It's going to remain the best Clan mech for some time, though, because fixing it's situation specifically is difficult. Realistically, it's going to need negative quirks in the long run.

However, I think boosting the poor clan mechs, then globally nerfing all clan mechs is a very good first step. It'll nerf the big boys, and hold most of the poor mechs roughly where they are now. Then, after those steps are done (ideally together), then look to quirks to fix up the smaller balance issues that remain.