1236 replies to this topic

[Lightfoot]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 December 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:

Yup, removing JJs from the premiere heavy clan jumper...that would fix it all right.

I am just being logical in light of how PGI chose to nerf/balance the Clan Mechs by closing the Clan Mechlab. Technically you don't need any special functionality like a Mechlab to change omnipods. It was only by arguing the illogic of having Clan Mechs running around with available tonnage that we got PGI to allow armor changes in Clan Mechlab.

Jump-Jets in MWO are fairly nerfed away now so you really get no value from 5 over 2 except in a few building heavy maps. So the premiere Clan heavy jumper was never allowed to exist in MWO anyway. Five friggin jump-jets should send the Summoner sailing over most obstacles, but of course it doesn't as the Summoner can barely jump a small building. Just another victim of the wonderful 3PV that would be made to work without totally ruining normal jump-jetting. Well that 3PV promise certainly did not pan out.

So non-fixed jump-jets are one of those logical changes since it only affects a few mechs and creates an obstacle to balance if they are fixed on those Mechs, but no other mechs are handicapped in that way. Levels the field of play.

Alternatively you could make the Summoner very tough, but I think PGI fears a tough Clan mech so a good solution, but very unlikely.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Vassago Rain, on 26 December 2014 - 12:11 AM, said:

I know, rite?

A single mech in the game can use ER PPCs. We gotta make sure it's nerfed properly to contain its powerlevel.

ERPPC are not powerful....Only thing powerful about them is the psychological effect of seeing PPCs rushing at you and knowing what they do in other games....When we get 15/15 CErPPC, then I might worry a bit more about them.

[YueFei]

LordKnightFandragon, on 26 December 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

ERPPC are not powerful....Only thing powerful about them is the psychological effect of seeing PPCs rushing at you and knowing what they do in other games....When we get 15/15 CErPPC, then I might worry a bit more about them.

Well, when you can fire them for half heat, sustaining fire for quite a while, it adds up.

The Thunderbolt-9S can fire it's ERPPCs in a 2-1 punch for 22.5 heat. 20 damage followed closely by 10 damage. And every 4 seconds it can bleed off 13 heat, so it'll be sitting on about 10 excess heat.

Incidentally, the old dominant builds revolving around 2xPPC+2xAC5 (or Gauss or UAC5's) would build up 22 heat per salvo (21 heat for PPC+Gauss) for 30 PP FLD damage. With Coolant Flush, they could fire on-cooldown for half a dozen salvos or more before needing to slack their rate of fire due to heat.

I think it's no accident that the TDR-9S has emerged as such a powerhouse.

Whereas the TDR-9S will be sitting on 10 excess heat per volley, another mech without those strong quirks firing 3xERPPCs will build up 45 heat, and sink 13 by the time the ERPPCs are off cooldown, for an excess heat build-up of 32 heat. That's more than 3 times as much excess heat as the TDR-9S builds up on each volley.

If the goal is to quirk mechs up to the level of the old Tier1 IS mechs, then the TDR-9S is actually in a good place. Yes, it has no ammo dependencies, but it also isn't 30 damage instant pin-point without paying a Ghost Heat penalty, and otherwise it's a 2-1 punch.

[pbiggz]

The summoner lacks 3 things. Speed, armor, and firepower. Things every mech needs. If you give it enough of at least two out of the three things, it will be much better.

Example:

If you make it more mobile, and give it more firepower, you preclude the need for extra bonus armor, as the thing can zombie as is.

If you give it bonus armor, and more firepower, then you dont necessarily need to improve it's speed, as the thing is as fast as any clan heavy, a jumper, and with the armor, can zombie even more.

If you give it bonus armor and mobility, you may not necessarily need to give it extra firepower, as it is durable, and extraordinarily fast for a heavy mech, so delivering even mediocre firepower at fantastic speeds becomes its strength.


Ideally though, it could use all 3 of these things to really dance toe to toe with quirked IS heavies, and other clan heavies.

Armor quirks like the dragon has would make the thing a little more survivable (you cant deny its armor is not optimal) and would preclude the need to cut into your limited podspace (which is itself a hamstring to the viability of the chassis), a few extra hardpoints, perhaps inflated left torso missile drum hardpoints, and extra energy and ballistic hard points, will let the summoner bring a more reasonable level of firepower to the field.

Powerful weapon quirks that effect projectile velocity and weapon cooldown/heat generation on clan LBX and Ultra ACs as well as LRMs, SRMs, and ERPPCs should encourage near-stock loadouts.

Jumpjet quirks that buff its jumpjets to pre-paul slaughter levels are pretty much required if you want the thing to be remotely useful as a jumper, as heavy jumpjets suck, and the Timberwolf S (which shouldnt even be in the game) is a better jumper right now. Torso twist rate is already pretty good, but even more movement quirks like acceleration, deceleration, top speed, and maneuvering are also called for.

There is no reason the less used clan chassis like the adder, nova, summoner, and gargoyle SHOULDN'T be entitled to the same quirks that the less used IS mechs got. The thunderbolt is an amazingly fun mech to pilot now, we know the quirks can bring the bad mechs out of obscurity, so let them come! I want my summoner! I want to tremble at the sight of an enemy summoner pounding towards me. In every past mechwarrior game (save 4) the summoner has given me pause, its truely a terrifying mech, tall, asymmetrical, alien, and hell did that ultra 20 rattle your cockpit in mechwarrior 3.

Edited by pbiggz, 26 December 2014 - 10:08 PM.

[InspectorG]

pbiggz, on 26 December 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

.

I think all it needs is quirks similar to 2 Thud variants, and new RT/LT pods with 2E each, high mounted.

Prime gets ERPPC quirks

D gets generic E quirks with 33-50% duration on ER/Pulse lasers

Meh, missile boat gets missile quirks.

[Bidetlol]

pbiggz, on 26 December 2014 - 10:06 PM, said:

The summoner lacks 3 things. Speed, armor, and firepower. Things every mech needs. If you give it enough of at least two out of the three things, it will be much better.

no

speed is now OK
Armor is also OK

the only thing Summoner need is more firepower. And to have more firepower it need more free tonnage.

Summoner have only few hardpoint , so the goal is to put "big guns" on it, but the tonnage is too low for it, so the mech is mediocre

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 26 December 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:

I think all it needs is quirks similar to 2 Thud variants, and new RT/LT pods with 2E each, high mounted.

Prime gets ERPPC quirks

D gets generic E quirks with 33-50% duration on ER/Pulse lasers

Meh, missile boat gets missile quirks.

I think it needs a little more than that. Probably needs both er ppc and lb-x quirks.

But the available tonnage is still it's biggest issue.

[Ozric]

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I've been using my summoner again for the 75 solo queue matches and it turns out it's still my favourite chassis.

I was once on the side of quite sweeping changes to the mech (endo etc), but all it really lacks now is stopping power, which can be quirked in. I mostly agree with direct weapon buffs by variant (with so few hardpoints those few you get have be really worth it), but I also like the general heat reduction concept for the chassis as a whole. It fits nicely with the lore and would go a long way towards balancing any potential lacking of heat sinks due to tonnage.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...24d7fd187ed9394
This is my current most-effective-but-not-meta build, which as you can see is totally compromised by all the heat sinks I need to make the PPC work, a weapon it came with as stock. I even buffed the lurms with Artemis to try and make up for dropping the LBX. A heat reduction quirk would work wonders.

I hope they get the mech up to scratch soon so I can use my Summoner x 3 + Kit Fox Jade Falcon solidarity deck for CW. I have only taken a Summoner out in CW once so far, and I felt bad for doing it.

Edited by Ozric, 27 December 2014 - 06:33 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ozric, on 27 December 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I've been using my summoner again for the 75 solo queue matches and it turns out it's still my favourite chassis.

I was once on the side of quite sweeping changes to the mech (endo etc), but all it really lacks now is stopping power, which can be quirked in. I mostly agree with direct weapon buffs by variant (with so few hardpoints those few you get have be really worth it), but I also like the general heat reduction concept for the chassis as a whole. It fits nicely with the lore and would go a long way towards balancing any potential lacking of heat sinks due to tonnage.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...24d7fd187ed9394
This is my current most-effective-but-not-meta build, which as you can see is totally compromised by all the heat sinks I need to make the PPC work, a weapon it came with as stock. I even buffed the lurms with Artemis to try and make up for dropping the LBX. A heat reduction quirk would work wonders.

I hope they get the mech up to scratch soon so I can use my Summoner x 3 + Kit Fox Jade Falcon solidarity deck for CW. I have only taken a Summoner out in CW once so far, and I felt bad for doing it.

the simple fact you felt bad taking your summoner into CW to me indicates the needed fixes are still pretty severe, as if it were minor, it would be no biggy.

[FupDup]

I figured it out guise. The Thor just needs a special quirk to let it do this:

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 27 December 2014 - 11:27 AM, said:

I figured it out guise. The Thor just needs a special quirk to let it do this:

DFAs?

[Deathlike]

Here's a thought...

Why can't there be a Clan FF-> Clan Endo conversion upgrade? (Clan FF would revert to Standard Armor.) It would "reuse" the fixed slots so nothing would change, outside of tonnage. It would be another C-bill money sink, but everyone (with a brain) would use it.

This proposal would only change 3 mechs... the Summoner, Gargoyle, and Warhawk. Sorry Nova.

None of those 3 mechs are OP, and could use a buff. This is the best way of accomplishing that w/o much fuss IMO.

I'll have to figure out something else for the Nova, but that's all I could come up with.

Edited by Deathlike, 27 December 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Lightfoot]

You know, we should not have to tell PGI the Summoner is very poorly integrated into MWO. PGI should have figured this out already and fixed the mech.

The Summoner has no payload compared to other 70 ton mechs, but has a cavernous Center Torso hit-box nearly as large as the weapons-heavy TDR-5SS. It's main weapons are very low slung so it must expose the CT to get a shot off and any object above the knees blocks the Arm weapons unless aiming straight away or up so many shots just hit dirt. The five jump-jets might be good for something if PGI had not added 3PV and then walked back their promise not to let it affect normal jump-jets. As it is, no mech should be forced to use jump-jets that don't work and are capped at such a low height value.

In my view Mechs that are gimped in load-out should be compensated with extra toughness and anything else is secondary. Weapon recycle and Mech speed are nice, but do not make up for the lack of weapons in a game where other mechs just pull the trigger once to do the same thing. So if they keep the Summoner as is, buff the CT with 15% more armor and 25% more structure and the side torsos as well. The Summoner would still not be over-powered, but would give players a different kind of game-play experience.

[Bishop Steiner]

*** EDIT Well, at 60 matches, my rate of dying has not increased dramatically, but I ran through a stretch where I was getting no kills, 4-500 damage, and a ton of assists, just not sealing the deal. That said, I still seem to get more matches with a kill than not, and definitely not dying all that often, even with low armor.



Overall, I must say the Summoners fragility seems a myth. Yes, if I get focused, it can go bad fast..... but that is true with pretty much anything beside a Firestarter.



Also, it's still a heck of a lot of fun, to park my ezmode TW, when not in CW, and challenge myself.

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 27 December 2014 - 11:42 AM, said:

Here's a thought...

Why can't there be a Clan FF-> Clan Endo conversion upgrade? (Clan FF would revert to Standard Armor.) It would "reuse" the fixed slots so nothing would change, outside of tonnage. It would be another C-bill money sink, but everyone (with a brain) would use it.

This proposal would only change 3 mechs... the Summoner, Gargoyle, and Warhawk. Sorry Nova.

None of those 3 mechs are OP, and could use a buff. This is the best way of accomplishing that w/o much fuss IMO.

I'll have to figure out something else for the Nova, but that's all I could come up with.

It is a good idea and will definitely help yes, but it will also go against the "No waste" philosophy of the Clans. Exchanging modular pods take minimal amount of effort and time, but stripping the internals and armor and replacing them will take prohibitively long time--in lore.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 December 2014 - 10:51 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 December 2014 - 10:41 PM, said:

*** EDIT Well, at 60 matches, my rate of dying has not increased dramatically, but I ran through a stretch where I was getting no kills, 4-500 damage, and a ton of assists, just not sealing the deal. That said, I still seem to get more matches with a kill than not, and definitely not dying all that often, even with low armor.



Overall, I must say the Summoners fragility seems a myth. Yes, if I get focused, it can go bad fast..... but that is true with pretty much anything beside a Firestarter.



Also, it's still a heck of a lot of fun, to park my ezmode TW, when not in CW, and challenge myself.

Your Steiner Fist is back. Order has now been restored to the universe.

[Bishop Steiner]

FupDup, on 27 December 2014 - 11:01 PM, said:

Your Steiner Fist is back. Order has now been restored to the universe.

yet you are still a moldy peacock.......

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 27 December 2014 - 11:04 PM.

[FupDup]

Bishop Steiner, on 27 December 2014 - 11:03 PM, said:

yet you are still a moldy peacock.......

That's cuz they took away the "unaffiliated" faction icon unless your faction contract expired. :\

[FupDup]

Shameless bump...

I think I might have figured out a different way to slightly differentiate Clan quirks from IS quirks, at least the weapon ones anyways. Instead of being split between a specific weapon and then a whole weapon class (i.e. X% ML range and X% all energy range) it could be based on different weapon sub-families. To better illustrate what I'm talking about...

"Small Class Energy Weapons" (ERSL, SPL)
"Large Class Energy Weapons" (ERLL, LPL)
"Short Range Missiles" (SRM2, SRM4, SRM6)
"Class 5 Autocannons" (AC/5, UAC/5, LB 5-X)
Etc...

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 28 December 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

Shameless bump...

I think I might have figured out a different way to slightly differentiate Clan quirks from IS quirks, at least the weapon ones anyways. Instead of being split between a specific weapon and then a whole weapon class (i.e. X% ML range and X% all energy range) it could be based on different weapon sub-families. To better illustrate what I'm talking about...

"Small Class Energy Weapons" (ERSL, SPL)
"Large Class Energy Weapons" (ERLL, LPL)
"Short Range Missiles" (SRM2, SRM4, SRM6)
"Class 5 Autocannons" (AC/5, UAC/5, LB 5-X)
Etc...

I was hoping for something like that, but that would fly over PGI's heads.

Anyways, I have a few ideas on how to balance Endo Steel vs Ferro Fibrous Armor, but that would need more fleshing out.

The basic idea:

Endo Steel (in general) for increasing your overall tonnage per crits, would reduce the actual internal structure of a mech by 10% or something along those lines. This will need to be looked at a bit since the majority of mechs rely on it (Stalker usually is the exception I think) and that free tonnage has to "give back" for something. This is a soft nerf and reduces TTK, but it's a tradeoff between tonnage and durability (it's not going to change much, but will give people some thought).

For IS Ferro Fibrous Armor... using it should also boost the armor "protection" by something like 12% to 15%. This will allow for a IS FF to IS Endo Steel to be legit and won't screw over most Lights (although those that can wield both most benefit). It's something to think about for heavier/assault mechs given the spare tonnage juggling that they do over crits.

For Clan Ferro Fibrous Armor, the armor boost should be like half that (6% to 7.5%, max of 10%). It would also help possibly boost the case for the Clan FF to Clan Endo conversion suggestion I had put out there (Clan FF-> Standard, with the benefits of Endo Steel and the proposed "nerf").

It's just ideas that I'm trying to flesh out a bit.

Edited by Deathlike, 28 December 2014 - 09:07 PM.