1236 replies to this topic

[InspectorG]

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 06:54 PM, said:

That solution for the summoner means you won't ever see any summoners except for variations of laser vomit.

I dont see that as entirely bad.

You would get 1 3ERPPC build, 1 lazervomit, 1 missile. Missile torso sucks so you could go RT/LT with the E, splat arms.



Current meta in MWO is boating.
Laser
Splat
LRM
Dual-AC20/Gauss - 3+AC5
Lazer/SRM

Summoner cant Dual Gauss, though it has the hardpoints that scream it.
Dual AC5 and ersl? How much ammo? I wouldnt shave leg armor for CW.

[Golden Vulf]

I've tried dual Autocannons on a Summoner, it doesn't have the capacity to take the ammo I would want in CW if using LBX5s unless you only want 4 er small lasers as back up weapons. you can take 5 tons of ammo that way. LBX 2s can get you some er mediums, but then you heat up and have to give more face time.

Well the Hellbringer can do Dual LBX/UAC 5 pretty well, and has room for 6 tons of ammo, ECM, 2 er mediums, and 2 er smalls. I think the LBX is the better option since you don't have room for a lot of heatsinks.

I mount them in the right arm and right torso, so I can keep a pair of medium lasers in the left arm and get better arm movement from having the lower arm actuator there

Not having 5 jump jets and having a smaller engine on a smaller chasis opens up a few possibilities. With 3 more tons on it you could add some heatsinks, another ER small, and top off the armor.

Or add 3 heatsinks and change the LBXs to UACs and worry less about heat.

On all my Hellbringers, the left torso energy hard points are always small lasers. I figure since the Hellbringer will overheat with er mediums there, I might as well keep short range weapons that I can actually use if someone gets in my face!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Metus regem, on 29 December 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

It shouldn't lose to a trial CTF-3D in close range anyways (sub 90m)......

I'm still surprised by that, I had the two ERLL two ml and a LB-X, yet I won? Maybe if the Summoner was more heat efficient he wouldn't have been over hearing as much, he'd fire, pause......... Fire, fire,fire pause..... Alpha, alpha shut down, then die when I blew both legs off....

"But wait...if the Cataphract had a 350 engine, then you wouldn't have all that firepower in comparison......." says the Clan Supremacy Conspiracy Theorist.

Which is exactly the point. The Cataphract doesn't have to have a hugely oversized engine. GGclose.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 29 December 2014 - 06:27 PM, said:

If you'd been fighting my Summoner (C-LBX/20, 2x C-ERML, 2x C-MG), I'd've gutted you like a fish, and that's not even a great fit on the thing. Need to find weight to upgrade to C-MPL.

What you encountered was what happens when a typical Clan sniper gets caught by IS units. Their heat efficiency is awful, so they lose the pressure game in a hurry and collapse. It's one reason I've been having so much fun in Clan brawlers recently. Nobody is ready to deal with a Clan 'Mech loaded with a GigaShotgun and a pile of heat-effective, high DPS C-ERSL. It's a hoot, and can occasionally breath new life into a chassis like the Summoner that stinks at the normal Clan distance fight.

No offense, but even that build of yours is mediocre (For a Summoner it's good, but compared to what a lot of other mechs can do, not so much), and would lose to my Shadowhawks the majority of the time, except for when you are just a better pilot. It's not a bad brawling build, but that's the thing, unless you are within 250 meters, most of your firepower is useless. The LB-20 spreads too much, and the slow cycle rate makes it, IMO usually inferior at everything but knife fighting to the 10.

Anyhow, as for the MPL, I didn't find them too hard to squeeze on: SMN-D

InspectorG, on 29 December 2014 - 07:05 PM, said:

I dont see that as entirely bad.

You would get 1 3ERPPC build, 1 lazervomit, 1 missile. Missile torso sucks so you could go RT/LT with the E, splat arms.



Current meta in MWO is boating.
Laser
Splat
LRM
Dual-AC20/Gauss - 3+AC5
Lazer/SRM

Summoner cant Dual Gauss, though it has the hardpoints that scream it.
Dual AC5 and ersl? How much ammo? I wouldnt shave leg armor for CW.

I do. Tired of being pigeonholed into "meta" builds, especially ones that don't even allow it to do what it's designed to do.

[Metus regem]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

"But wait...if the Cataphract had a 350 engine, then you wouldn't have all that firepower in comparison......." says the Clan Supremacy Conspiracy Theorist.

Which is exactly the point. The Cataphract doesn't have to have a hugely oversized engine. GGclose.

And that is part of the point I am trying to make, if in an unoptimized and unskilled IS mech can take a Summoner there is a big problem with the Summoner. I do not mind losing in an unskilled / unoptimized IS mech to a clan mech that would had basics done, as I did face STS in that pug match, and a pug should rightly lose against STS.

[Bishop Steiner]

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

I've tried dual Autocannons on a Summoner, it doesn't have the capacity to take the ammo I would want in CW if using LBX5s unless you only want 4 er small lasers as back up weapons. you can take 5 tons of ammo that way. LBX 2s can get you some er mediums, but then you heat up and have to give more face time.

Well the Hellbringer can do Dual LBX/UAC 5 pretty well, and has room for 6 tons of ammo, ECM, 2 er mediums, and 2 er smalls. I think the LBX is the better option since you don't have room for a lot of heatsinks.

I mount them in the right arm and right torso, so I can keep a pair of medium lasers in the left arm and get better arm movement from having the lower arm actuator there

Not having 5 jump jets and having a smaller engine on a smaller chasis opens up a few possibilities. With 3 more tons on it you could add some heatsinks, another ER small, and top off the armor.

Or add 3 heatsinks and change the LBXs to UACs and worry less about heat.

On all my Hellbringers, the left torso energy hard points are always small lasers. I figure since the Hellbringer will overheat with er mediums there, I might as well keep short range weapons that I can actually use if someone gets in my face!

one thing I have noticed.....armor can be overrated.

Yup. I said it.

I've run a bone stock Summoner Prime, as the post says for some time now. Though this last 2 weeks has been the only time I actually have tracked results. One thing I noticed? I didn't die any faster, or more frequently than when I up armored it. If I pay attention, the thing can tank and twist very very well.

That said, going to mediums gives you range, but also ups your heat a lot. So the ERSmalls might be better overall, anyhow.

[1453 R]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2014 - 08:04 PM, said:

No offense, but even that build of yours is mediocre (For a Summoner it's good, but compared to what a lot of other mechs can do, not so much), and would lose to my Shadowhawks the majority of the time, except for when you are just a better pilot. It's not a bad brawling build, but that's the thing, unless you are within 250 meters, most of your firepower is useless. The LB-20 spreads too much, and the slow cycle rate makes it, IMO usually inferior at everything but knife fighting to the 10.

Anyhow, as for the MPL, I didn't find them too hard to squeeze on: SMN-D

No offense taken. Heh, it's not a great build, and not something I'd hold up as a shining example of how to build awesome Summoners, but it's got some unexpected kick to it, and with the extra cooldown buff on that Prime LA, the LBX/20 hits harder than people figure. Maybe some day I'll work on optimizing it better, but really, the point was that the Summoner is kind of a dirt-poor sniper and that being That Guy with the giant autocannon muscling into CQB range can net you some kills/damage you wouldn't otherwise get in the hardpoint-starved thing.

Much prefer my brawly Hellbringer or Timber Wolf for actually ripping junk up in close, but the Summoner variant is at least entertaining enough to make leveling Summoners not actively painful.

[InspectorG]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 December 2014 - 08:09 PM, said:

That said, going to mediums gives you range, but also ups your heat a lot. So the ERSmalls might be better overall, anyhow.

4ERSL, Gauss?

[Bishop Steiner]

InspectorG, on 29 December 2014 - 08:39 PM, said:

4ERSL, Gauss?

I really dislike Gauss on it. But that's personal style, not a rule. I just am not personally good at maximizing the Gauss on a mobile chassis. I prefer snapshot ballistics. Obviously, if one want to be a toaster pastry though, it is a good option.

[Golden Vulf]

On my Summoner Prime I run 4 medium pulse lasers, and an ART IV SRM 4 with 2 tons of ammo, because I like the way the 4 pod missile launcher looks. gives me room for 7 heat sinks, targetting computer mk1, and clan active probe. Active probe is a big force multiplier since it means friendly streaks and lrms will hit the mech I'm targeting while brawling inside of an ECM bubble. (unless there are more ECMs than pprobes nearby)

Modules and the targeting computer help improve the damage of the pulse lasers at range. I'm wondering if I should move more of the back armor to the front.

With 3 and a half tons of extra pod space, I'd need some new hard points to make good use of them. Otherwise I would just buff up the targetting computer and add more heatsinks and use cooldown modules.

I know I barely beat the top tier IS medium mechs in terms of firepower, but whatever works!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 09:15 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Golden Vulf, on 29 December 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:

On my Summoner Prime I run 4 medium pulse lasers, and an ART IV SRM 4 with 2 tons of ammo, because I like the way the 4 pod missile launcher looks. gives me room for 7 heat sinks, targetting computer mk1, and clan active probe. Active probe is a big force multiplier since it means friendly streaks and lrms will hit the mech I'm targeting while brawling inside of an ECM bubble. (unless there are more ECMs than pprobes nearby)

Modules and the targeting computer help improve the damage of the pulse lasers at range. I'm wondering if I should move more of the back armor to the front.

With 3 and a half tons of extra pod space, I'd need some new hard points to make good use of them. Otherwise I would just buff up the targetting computer and add more heatsinks and use cooldown modules.

I know I pretty much match IS medium mechs in terms of firepower, but whatever works!

or it would allow people who like big guns to use them. Instead of having the firepower of a Jenner.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 29 December 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

We can certainly go with a +10% standard internal bonus (as much as +15%) for Standard Internals. I still use Endo Steel on my Atlas-S (5 tons saved) and so I never really think about "forgetting Endo" in most builds.

That still might be good enough to balance against FF, as external armor is doubled and therefore the suggested bonus for using them would be more effective than going w/o Endo (although, it's only scaled to the amount you put into it).

There's not that big of a gap between Endo and Ferro. A slight boost to Ferro and it's pretty much a done deal.

Metus regem, on 29 December 2014 - 05:59 PM, said:

It shouldn't lose to a trial CTF-3D in close range anyways (sub 90m)...... I'm still surprised by that, I had the two ERLL two ml and a LB-X, yet I won? Maybe if the Summoner was more heat efficient he wouldn't have been over hearing as much, he'd fire, pause......... Fire, fire,fire pause..... Alpha, alpha shut down, then die when I blew both legs off....

It's only hot if you build it hot. And there is no reason a well built 70T Cataphract shouldn't have a good chance of winning vs. a 70T Summoner.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 December 2014 - 09:59 PM.

[Golden Vulf]

Well, he was using a trial Cataphract, not saying the trial doesn't have some decent weapons, since it has a little bit more free tonnage to play with and doesn't have to bring jump jets, and has a sturdier standard engine. But it has no basics unlocked, is slower, and it has 2 tons of CENTER TORSO AMMO!

Edited by Golden Vulf, 29 December 2014 - 09:39 PM.

[Metus regem]

Ultimate, but it was not a well built CTF, I was in the Trial CTF-3D, that is why I am saying there is a glaring problem with the Summoner.

[GumbyC2C]

My drop deck for CW is three Summoners (all with different loadouts) and one Kit Fox.
Summoner is my favorite mech in MWO. I regularly have 4-6 kill rounds in it for non-CW matches and my damage number is usually at least 500. I feel pretty good about speaking on it's strengths and weaknesses. It's very good at splat, my splat version has 4 SRM6 and one LRM15. You can take down very big mechs very fast. It is pretty good at wub-wub. Three large pulse lasers with supporting modules is very nice especially if you use the prime right arm omnipod. You just sit about about 600 meters using your speed and mobility to dominate the range and peel off armor from your opponents. It's a decent sniper if you use nipple gauss. You have both periscope shots and pop-tart shots available to you. That side mounted cockpit helps line up the shots too. It's also anything but fragile. If you give it Endo, more hard points, or mobility buffs, that mech will be dominate in the hands of anyone who has a better plan than running straight at the enemy.

[Ultimax]

Metus regem, on 29 December 2014 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ultimate, but it was not a well built CTF, I was in the Trial CTF-3D, that is why I am saying there is a glaring problem with the Summoner.

Sorry I missed that.

To be fair though, while not optimal the trial CTF-3D build is serviceable.

It's got a STD engine for good survivability, it's got 16 DHS, and it has decent hill hump ability with the torso mounted LLAS.

Even the armor allocation is pretty good, with the glaring exception of the arms being so low (one less DHS to max or near max them would probably be better).




What exactly was your opponent using?

Edited by Ultimatum X, 29 December 2014 - 11:15 PM.

[Xythius]

Ultimatum X, on 29 December 2014 - 11:14 PM, said:

Sorry I missed that.

To be fair though, while not optimal the trial CTF-3D build is serviceable.

It's got a STD engine for good survivability, it's got 16 DHS, and it has decent hill hump ability with the torso mounted LLAS.

Even the armor allocation is pretty good, with the glaring exception of the arms being so low (one less DHS to max or near max them would probably be better).




What exactly was your opponent using?

It might have been me. I remember being in a match a while ago opposite Metus & I know I was killed by a CTF. I was running mostly stock, using an ERPPC in the RA, an LB10X in the LA & an ASRM6 in the LT, plus aTC mk1. It's an 'ok' build & is fully elited. I've pulled some decent games with it, 2-4 kills & an avg of 400 dmg. I've recently pulled the ASRM off of it (if I use missiles I exclusively use artemis) & used the extra space for one more ton of LBX ammo & another couple DHS.

Edited by Xythius, 30 December 2014 - 06:37 AM.

[Rush Maguin]

Xythius. they let you in here? This board will let any Clanner in, won't they?

That said, I'm waiting to get my hands on a Summoner. Always liked those.

[Metus regem]

Xythius, on 30 December 2014 - 06:26 AM, said:

It might have been me. I remember being in a match a while ago opposite Metus & I know I was killed by a CTF. I was running mostly stock, using an ERPPC in the RA, an LB10X in the LA & an ASRM6 in the LT, plus aTC mk1. It's an 'ok' build & is fully elited. I've pulled some decent games with it, 2-4 kills & an avg of 400 dmg. I've recently pulled the ASRM off of it (if I use missiles I exclusively use artemis) & used the extra space for one more ton of LBX ammo & another couple DHS.

Couldn't have been you, you are not in STS, and it was two nights ago, around 8pm pacific time. As to what the summoner had was dual MPL paired with a cUAC 10 and cSSRM6. By all rights he should have been able to beat me in a close range brawl, if he had gone for legs or CT, I would have done either of those, and he did take my left leg first, the he just focused on my LT, and I was fine to let home take it, as I kept the bulk of my firepower in the rt alive and fine, and able to be brought to bare as I wanted it.

It was just a fight that was brought to me, that I wasn't sure that I would win, but I kept him busy with me, and the three Raven's went to pop generator 1, so I was doing my part. That being said, by all rights, the Summoner should have been able to beat me, he was faster, should have had basics at the very least, maybe even double basics...

[Xythius]

Metus regem, on 30 December 2014 - 06:51 AM, said:

Couldn't have been you, you are not in STS, and it was two nights ago, around 8pm pacific time. As to what the summoner had was dual MPL paired with a cUAC 10 and cSSRM6. By all rights he should have been able to beat me in a close range brawl, if he had gone for legs or CT, I would have done either of those, and he did take my left leg first, the he just focused on my LT, and I was fine to let home take it, as I kept the bulk of my firepower in the rt alive and fine, and able to be brought to bare as I wanted it.

It was just a fight that was brought to me, that I wasn't sure that I would win, but I kept him busy with me, and the three Raven's went to pop generator 1, so I was doing my part. That being said, by all rights, the Summoner should have been able to beat me, he was faster, should have had basics at the very least, maybe even double basics...

Ah, then nope, wasn't me. Haven't played my Summoners in about a week.