1236 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

You're assuming the CTF-3D is a T1 heavy across both factions? The game has changed. The Summoner competes well vs. the CTF-3D which is the best variant of CTF available, they're on pretty even footing with the Summoner always having either a Speed and Maneuverability advantage (if the CTF goes STD) or a survivability advantage (if the CTF goes XL). Only CTF builds like 2x AC10 + 1x PPC (probably it's best available build) are out of the realm of something you can build on the Summoner. But that's not specific to the Summoner, as none of the Clan heavies can run that. In fact if you want to run a similar build (and less efficient version at that) clan-side you have to go all the way up to 85T for a Warhawk before you can. The Summoner is capable of some solid builds, even if it is often overshadowed by the HBR & TBR. 4x CERMLAS + Gauss is roughly equivalent to 3x LLAS and a Gauss IS side. 5x ASRM 6s is deadly up close.

Yes, tiers are the same across factions.

Tier 1 IS Mech were already on par to, or superior to most Clan Mechs. OR THEY WOULD HAVE GOT QUIRKS TOO.

The Outlier is the Timberwolf, which is best described as a Tier Zero. Nothing comes close. As for the Stormcrow? Strong tier 1, but due to lack of JJs, and the IS quirks, many IS mechs can hold up reasonably well against it, though without the diverse payloads it can carry.

The Summoner? It works OK as a support unit, as long as it isn't noticed. 1v1 vs equal pilots? I'll take a Jager, Thud or Phract over the Summoner, all day every day. And there are a few Orion Builds, too. One could even make an argument for the DRG-1N, though it is a one trick pony, it's a dang nice trick.

All that speed and mobility on the Summoner is nice, allows for some decent tactical positioning. But eventually you have will have to KILL another Heavy Mech that hasn't already been wounded for you. And the Summoner is quite mediocre at that. It missile vomits, OK....but real world, not as good as Mad Dogs or Timberwolves. It doesn't laser vomit well, nor really pack ballistics with authority. You can snipe with PPC/Gauss, or 2 PPC (gets pretty hot if pressed though) and do OK.... again, unless you are noticed, as any decent Jager or Thud will rip your cockpit off and crap on your reactor if it decides to gun for you.

Fact: It has 5% better speed than other Clan Heavies, and a better agility, though you lose most of that unless you laser vomit the arms. Hitboxes are good, but nowhere near TW good.

Fact: It has far and away the lowest available tonnage for weapons, and the worst hardpoints of any Clan Heavy. It can't mount ECM, it's JJs are OK, but hardly great (Neither are other heavy Jumpers in general, but they are not locked into them). When up armored, the Hellbringer is in the same neighborhood, but ECM and a preponderance of hardpoints cover a number of sins.

So please, pray tell, in what world is the Summoner competitive with any other Clan Heavy, let alone half the IS chassis available?

I'm glad you and 2 other players think the Summoner is in a good place. I have over 500 matches in them, and, like the vast majority of people who have used them, say otherwise.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 30 December 2014 - 11:39 AM.

[Decoy3]

I'm not sure I understand all the people so vehemently opposed to changing FF/Endo.

Option 1: Pilots can choose the mech upgrades as they wish. What does this do, really? TBR and SCR already have both, and the DWF is already bottlenecked by crit slots due to its teeny-tiny engine, rather than tonnage. The HBR gets better, sure. That's really the only concern I see, other than the fact that PGI already stated that clans would never be able to do that. But hey, we'll also never see a 3rd person camera, right? The other affected mechs aren't in any danger of suddenly becoming OP.

Option 2: We all log on one Tuesday after a patch and instead of FF our Summoners now have Endo. Or they have both. Whatever. You're not seeing any competent IS pilots running FF over Endo, so why are we forcing it on clan players? Especially on the Summoner, which already has locked JJs and lacks the omnipods to support laser boating.

[Bishop Steiner]

Decoy3, on 30 December 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand all the people so vehemently opposed to changing FF/Endo.

Option 1: Pilots can choose the mech upgrades as they wish. What does this do, really? TBR and SCR already have both, and the DWF is already bottlenecked by crit slots due to its teeny-tiny engine, rather than tonnage. The HBR gets better, sure. That's really the only concern I see, other than the fact that PGI already stated that clans would never be able to do that. But hey, we'll also never see a 3rd person camera, right? The other affected mechs aren't in any danger of suddenly becoming OP.

Option 2: We all log on one Tuesday after a patch and instead of FF our Summoners now have Endo. Or they have both. Whatever. You're not seeing any competent IS pilots running FF over Endo, so why are we forcing it on clan players? Especially on the Summoner, which already has locked JJs and lacks the omnipods to support laser boating.

We also were not supposed to be able to adjust our armor, originally. That got changed for "gameplay reasons".

Well, here's another gameplay reason.

[Xythius]

Decoy3, on 30 December 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

I'm not sure I understand all the people so vehemently opposed to changing FF/Endo.

Option 1: Pilots can choose the mech upgrades as they wish. What does this do, really? TBR and SCR already have both, and the DWF is already bottlenecked by crit slots due to its teeny-tiny engine, rather than tonnage. The HBR gets better, sure. That's really the only concern I see, other than the fact that PGI already stated that clans would never be able to do that. But hey, we'll also never see a 3rd person camera, right? The other affected mechs aren't in any danger of suddenly becoming OP.

Option 2: We all log on one Tuesday after a patch and instead of FF our Summoners now have Endo. Or they have both. Whatever. You're not seeing any competent IS pilots running FF over Endo, so why are we forcing it on clan players? Especially on the Summoner, which already has locked JJs and lacks the omnipods to support laser boating.

I think mainly due to the fact that the Devs stated they were locked as "a balancing factor." Well, since then we've (Clans) had base/ghost heat increases, range nerfs, locked jj's, damage nerfs and equipment 'rebalancing'. And still the forums are awash with complaints about Clan 'mechs/weapons/abilities.

For whatever reason, some folks will always hold on to this mistaken idea that the Clans are OP, or P2W, or some other misguided derogetory nonsense - no matter what evidence can be produced to the contrary. Those of us who simply know otherwise, that these bottom tier Clan 'mechs, even with the opportunity of swapping one or both of those components will STILL not be anywhere near the levels of the 'holy trinity (I hate that phrase..). The Nova will still have heat issues, the Summoner will still be plagued by bad omnipods, as will the Gargoyle, who subsequently, will also still be hosed due to poor movement archetype. And the Dire will still be constrained by crit space more than tonnage. The Myst Lynx wont be any faster, nor will the Kit Fox or Adder. The -only- 'mech that -might- benefit will be the Hellbringer - it may actually be able to cool some of its more usefull loadouts.

This, unfortunately, doesn't register with the more vocal anti-clanners. They will loose their ever-loving minds.

But, the reality is, it should happen. The previous nerf passes have all but made it almost mandatory at this point.

Edited by Xythius, 30 December 2014 - 01:32 PM.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Yes, tiers are the same across factions.

No, they really aren't.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

Tier 1 IS Mech were already on par to, or superior to most Clan Mechs. OR THEY WOULD HAVE GOT QUIRKS TOO.

You're assuming that PGI's estimation of all IS mechs was completely perfect.

Also, they didn't get quirks on the initial pass because the goal was to improve the status of lower tier IS mechs.


You'll notice several T1 labeled IS mechs got quirks on the most recent pass including the Ember, Jenner-F and yes even every Victor got minor quirks with the DS actually getting PPC & Gauss quirks.

So clearly no, they were not already on par nor superior.


I think GMan's assessment of mechs and builds is pretty objective, and reasonable - and I also agree with his placement of most of these mechs/builds.


http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/


Read it if you have time, try to be objective.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

The Summoner? It works OK as a support unit, as long as it isn't noticed. 1v1 vs equal pilots? I'll take a Jager, Thud or Phract over the Summoner, all day every day.

You'd take them because you don't like the shoe most clan mechs have unfortunately been crammed into, I promise I don't like having to try and cram laser vomit onto everything either.


The Summoner still has several, probably T2, builds that are better than most of the builds you could run on most Cataphracts.

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 11:37 AM, said:

All that speed and mobility on the Summoner is nice, allows for some decent tactical positioning. But eventually you have will have to KILL another Heavy Mech that hasn't already been wounded for you. And the Summoner is quite mediocre at that. It missile vomits, OK....but real world, not as good as Mad Dogs or Timberwolves. It doesn't laser vomit well, nor really pack ballistics with authority. You can snipe with PPC/Gauss, or 2 PPC (gets pretty hot if pressed though) and do OK.... again, unless you are noticed, as any decent Jager or Thud will rip your cockpit off and crap on your reactor if it decides to gun for you.

Are you saying that 5x ASRM 6s isn't enough fire power to kill another Heavy mech?

Or a 43 point alpha with Gauss + CERMLAS out to 400+m?

Or play extreme long range (like on Boreal) with 4x CERLLAS?


I agree that it has limitations, but I also contest that it has some solid build options, can compete with the CTF-3D.

I agree that for raw firepower the Thunderbolts, well only two of them, are stronger right now - they are however significantly worse at maneuverability, slower, and have pretty atrocious geometry for a 65T mech.


Once PGI actually runs a quirk pass over clan mechs, I think it has the potential to end up in a decent place and it's very likely a T2 mech now.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 30 December 2014 - 02:10 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

No, they really aren't.





You're assuming that PGI's estimation of all IS mechs was completely perfect.

Also, they didn't get quirks on the initial pass because the goal was to improve the status of lower tier IS mechs.


You'll notice several T1 labeled IS mechs got quirks on the most recent pass including the Ember, Jenner-F and yes even every Victor got minor quirks with the DS actually getting PPC & Gauss quirks.

So clearly no, they were not already on par nor superior.


I think GMan's assessment of mechs and builds is pretty objective, and reasonable - and I also agree with his placement of most of these mechs/builds.


http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/


Read it if you have time, try to be objective.








You'd take them because you don't like the shoe most clan mechs have unfortunately been crammed into, I promise I don't like having to try and cram laser vomit onto everything either.


The Summoner still has several, probably T2, builds that are better than most of the builds you could run on most Cataphracts.






Are you saying that 5x ASRM 6s isn't enough fire power to kill another Heavy mech?

Or a 43 point alpha with Gauss + CERMLAS out to 400+m?

Or play extreme long range (like on Boreal) with 4x CERLLAS?


I agree that it has limitations, but I also contest that it has some solid build options, can compete with the CTF-3D.

I agree that for raw firepower the Thunderbolts, well only two of them, are stronger right now - they are however significantly worse at maneuverability, slower, and have pretty atrocious geometry for a 65T mech.


Once PGI actually runs a quirk pass over clan mechs, I think it has the potential to end up in a decent place and it's very likely a T2 mech now.

Summoner has several Tier 2 Builds?

[Deathlike]

Summoner at best is classified as Tier 3. You know the mech needs help when the Stormcrow can do anything a Summoner does that doesn't involve ballistics.

It's a sign.

[FupDup]

To be fair, I do actually have some fear of the 5 ASRM6 build, but that's a hyper-niche specialist that is vulnerable to running out of ammo in prolonged fights and can't deal any damage whatsoever past 297 meters (if you use the 10% range module).

I want the Alternate M left torso already. My body is ready for 3 ERML + 2 LPL.

Edited by FupDup, 30 December 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 30 December 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

I want the Alternate M left torso already. My body is ready for 3 ERML + 2 LPL.

It would still somehow be worse than a Stormcrow.

[FupDup]

Deathlike, on 30 December 2014 - 03:00 PM, said:

It would still somehow be worse than a Stormcrow.

It would actually get to have 2 more DHS than the equivalent Doomcrow build, but with other weaknesses...

Edited by FupDup, 30 December 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

FupDup, on 30 December 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

It would actually get to have 2 more DHS than the equivalent Doomcrow build, but with other weaknesses...

I'm screwing with you.

SCR-PRIME

SMN-D

Although, it's based on the Gargoyle principle though...

At least you get JJs this time...

[cSand]

I bought one yesterday...

Interesting mech. I am having fun with c-UAC20, 2 er mlas, 2 er smlas.

It's no QKD though

Edited by cSand, 30 December 2014 - 03:09 PM.

[Mcgral18]

FupDup, on 30 December 2014 - 02:50 PM, said:

To be fair, I do actually have some fear of the 5 ASRM6 build, but that's a hyper-niche specialist that is vulnerable to running out of ammo in prolonged fights and can't deal any damage whatsoever past 297 meters (if you use the 10% range module).

I want the Alternate M left torso already. My body is ready for 3 ERML + 2 LPL.

If we don't get the M-LT before the Panther's come out, you can throw timeline out of the equation, since one Panther is also 3051 (under year early, same year as the M variant).


I might send Russ a Tweet with those omnipod pictures at some point.

Edited by Mcgral18, 30 December 2014 - 03:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

The best way of looking at the Summoner when the Summoner-M's LT omnipod is the following:

1) ERPPC + Gauss on torsos only will debut (with quirk buffs from the Prime's arms).

2) A few more energy builds, probably involving the energy hardpoint as the focus (ERPPC or CLPL based).

3) There wil be people that will be screaming about lurmboat Summoner-meta for a few days... when they are effectively Stormcrows on JJs that finally got a TAG option. Chuckles will be had.

That's it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

If we don't get the M-LT before the Panther's come out, you can throw timeline out of the equation, since one Panther is also 3051 (under year early, same year as the M variant).


I might send Russ a Tweet with those omnipod pictures at some point.

still don't have the HBK-4N. It came out ages ago. Just because newer models are out doesn't mean they have to release all the variants or omnipods.

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

The Summoner still has several, probably T2, builds that are better than most of the builds you could run on most Cataphracts.

Dude, plz share!
I love how the Summoner feels/looks but i cant get a loadout to save my life?
Does the ERPPC/Gauss need a Macro?

[Brody319]

Can we just buff the bad clans already? I mean the only reason PGI has to not do it would be people would whine about it, but people are and always will be whining about the clan mechs till they are nerfed to the quickdraw level. That is just how some of these people are.

simply fact that some clan mechs are just not good and need some help.

[Mcgral18]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 December 2014 - 03:19 PM, said:

still don't have the HBK-4N. It came out ages ago. Just because newer models are out doesn't mean they have to release all the variants or omnipods.

The Hunch 4N isn't in the gamefiles, though. I just checked.


An ETA of some point 2015 would be good.

[Xythius]

Ultimatum X, on 30 December 2014 - 02:07 PM, said:

No, they really aren't.





You're assuming that PGI's estimation of all IS mechs was completely perfect.

Also, they didn't get quirks on the initial pass because the goal was to improve the status of lower tier IS mechs.


You'll notice several T1 labeled IS mechs got quirks on the most recent pass including the Ember, Jenner-F and yes even every Victor got minor quirks with the DS actually getting PPC & Gauss quirks.

So clearly no, they were not already on par nor superior.


I think GMan's assessment of mechs and builds is pretty objective, and reasonable - and I also agree with his placement of most of these mechs/builds.


http://metamechs.com...ists/comp-list/


Read it if you have time, try to be objective.








You'd take them because you don't like the shoe most clan mechs have unfortunately been crammed into, I promise I don't like having to try and cram laser vomit onto everything either.


The Summoner still has several, probably T2, builds that are better than most of the builds you could run on most Cataphracts.






Are you saying that 5x ASRM 6s isn't enough fire power to kill another Heavy mech?

Or a 43 point alpha with Gauss + CERMLAS out to 400+m?

Or play extreme long range (like on Boreal) with 4x CERLLAS?


I agree that it has limitations, but I also contest that it has some solid build options, can compete with the CTF-3D.

I agree that for raw firepower the Thunderbolts, well only two of them, are stronger right now - they are however significantly worse at maneuverability, slower, and have pretty atrocious geometry for a 65T mech.


Once PGI actually runs a quirk pass over clan mechs, I think it has the potential to end up in a decent place and it's very likely a T2 mech now.

I'm really curious to know what build you think on a Summoner is Tier 2.

5x ASRM6 is good, but useless beyond 270 meters (or 297 with the lvl5 range mod).

4x ERLL's is fine - if you're willing to expose your whole body to return fire (I will concede that with the exception of the one variant with the shoulder energy point, the CTF also suffers from this) and also still pretty hot.

Gauss works in the torso, but hard to combine with the gorilla arm hardpoints for the ERML's, for that alpha.

Let's not kid ourselves that any of those are "solid tier 2 builds". Mainly due to the simple fact that they are not on a solid tier 2 'mech. It may be faster than the other heavies, and slightly more manuervable if you put medlas in the arms, but there is no scenario where the Summoner exists as a tier 2 'mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcgral18, on 30 December 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Hunch 4N isn't in the gamefiles, though. I just checked.


An ETA of some point 2015 would be good.

somewhere in the game files is La Malinche with JJs (well, maybe not anymore)....... get me that and I'll see what I can do for your precious M.

Though that is still a long way from fixing what ails it