104 replies to this topic

[The Mechromancer]

Astrocanis, on 24 December 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

Ah, yes. They unutterably craven "you must be the reason" combined with the "no, my mechs aren't OP, I'm JUST THAT GOOD!"

LOL

Ah yes the "I keep losing so the other mechs must be OP!" move...

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

wow really, i had no clue. thanks you just completely changed the game for me......
you seriously think i dont know that. i cant force them to go anywhere. I cant stick " with the team" when everyone scatters and goes off in different directions. The other team is just as disorganized and they stomped the hell out of us everytime. do you clan players really think that the only reason you stomp the IS is because the IS doesnt work together while you guys do? There are the same number of ******* pugs on both side. the only diff is the far superior clan tech.

So, you are basing game balance off of your experience in a game of nothing but disorganized PUGS... Flawless logic

Edited by The Mechromancer, 24 December 2014 - 06:41 PM.

[Master Pain]

The Mechromancer, on 24 December 2014 - 06:32 PM, said:

The common denominator here is?

you

Obviously not just me. There are a number of threads like this one. This thread wasn't started by me. I dont think I'm the only one that feels this way.

Astrocanis, on 24 December 2014 - 06:33 PM, said:

Nice attempt. Is English a second language?

No, I'm just rather frustrated right now. I'm writing rather sloppy in my frustration.
LOL

[Prussian Havoc]

riverslq, on 22 December 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

this fun.
all drops with pugs.
0/9. yay.
I'm enjoying this pgi.
either make pugs drop against pugs, or drop a few more premades in there.
this premade 10 vs random 12s just ain't working.

I disagree.

In War, Elites tear the stuffing out of individualistic militia 999 times out of every 1000 battles.

Now for us here in MWO that begins to change when those "militia" get serious enough to join an actual in-game Unit, practice with Unit-prescribed, tried and tested Mech designs, get up on TeamSpeak and follow Team Tactics. THEN you might be lucky to win as many as you lose... maybe... if you were lucky enough to join a good Unit.


So many folks seem to forget that MWO is a "TEAM" game. It isn't you against 23 other Mechs, ALL on a carefully balanced playing field of rules and "matchmaker shepherding" with a sole purpose to see which individual MechWarrior gains the highest match score.

If you want to WIN, you must embrace the TEAM aspect of MWO.

[Mystere]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 06:36 PM, said:

wow really, i had no clue. thanks you just completely changed the game for me......
you seriously think i dont know that. i cant force them to go anywhere. I cant stick " with the team" when everyone scatters and goes off in different directions. The other team is just as disorganized and they stomped the hell out of us everytime. do you clan players really think that the only reason you stomp the IS is because the IS doesnt work together while you guys do? There are the same number of ******* pugs on both side. the only diff is the far superior clan tech.

Then take command. Use your (online) charisma, assuming that is even possible. If not, use logic/reasoning. Explain why X, Y, and Z need to be done. It is not easy ... at all. But it can be done.

And just to let you know, it has been my observation that all-Falcon PUG teams tend to work together, more often than not. On the other hand, mixed-Clan PUG teams have been absolutely frustrating.

As such, all I can think of suggesting for now is to join and drop with a unit (assuming you haven't already), and/or switch to a different faction if your faction mates are not up to your standards.

Edited by Mystere, 24 December 2014 - 06:47 PM.

[Master Pain]

You guys are right. I'm clearly the worst player in the Inner Sphere. I am single handedly dragging down my team with my mere presence. Every single game I play, I remove any chance for my team to win. I am so sorry I ever tried. Clearly 1 bad player out of 12 is more than enough to doom any team to getting its ass handed to them every time.

[Cerlin]

I was 3-0 today vs clans in solo drops. I mean, build better mechs and practice more? Join a unit of like minded folk who you can enjoy practicing with?

[Mystere]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

You guys are right. I'm clearly the worst player in the Inner Sphere. I am single handedly dragging down my team with my mere presence. Every single game I play, I remove any chance for my team to win. I am so sorry I ever tried. Clearly 1 bad player out of 12 is more than enough to doom any team to getting its ass handed to them every time.

Sigh! Read what other people are saying ... again.

[Kenyon Burguess]

it will never be balanced for skill levels. it will never be balanced for number of faction players. it will never have balanced maps or balanced mechs. its a team game for min/max players. I don't understand how people didn't understand that after the first week of its release. personally I found it boring charging the generator over and over and have gone back to playing other modes where the focus is more on combat.

[Master Pain]

Mystere, on 24 December 2014 - 06:55 PM, said:

Sigh! Read what other people are saying ... again.

I'm just responding to all the insults of people telling me I am bad at this game.
I dont have any problems winning when I fight IS opponents. Why can I as a pug regularly beat IS teams of all types(12mans, collections of smaller groups, pugs) but never get anywhere close to beating even a team of clan pugs? I see the same level of teamwork from both sides in all factions, yet the only ones that I can never seem to get close to beating are clans. I win vs Davion about 50% of the time. I win vs Steiner about 50% of the time. I win vs Rasalhague about 50% of the time. I win vs Clans 0% of the time.

[The Mechromancer]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

You guys are right. I'm clearly the worst player in the Inner Sphere. I am single handedly dragging down my team with my mere presence. Every single game I play, I remove any chance for my team to win. I am so sorry I ever tried. Clearly 1 bad player out of 12 is more than enough to doom any team to getting its ass handed to them every time.

You could be the best damn pilot in the game and still get ROFLSTOMP'd because the other 11 are bad.

This is why nothing PUG groups do should be considered in game balance. It's a turkey shoot, maybe your teams are good, but waay more often than not especially in a game that heavily rewards communication PUGs will lose. Badly. Especially if they are attacking.

This is aplified by the fact that there are 48 mechs per team. Where the score gap is greatly widened by a number of factors.

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

I'm just responding to all the insults of people telling me I am bad at this game.
I dont have any problems winning when I fight IS opponents. Why can I as a pug regularly beat IS teams of all types(12mans, collections of smaller groups, pugs) but never get anywhere close to beating even a team of clan pugs? I see the same level of teamwork from both sides in all factions, yet the only ones that I can never seem to get close to beating are clans. I win vs Davion about 50% of the time. I win vs Steiner about 50% of the time. I win vs Rasalhague about 50% of the time. I win vs Clans 0% of the time.

Clan pilots are on average better at this game. That is a fact.

Either they have played enough to mass the C-bills required for clan mechs, or they are putting a lot of money into the game, which better players tend to be more willing to do.

And without the ELO shield of the regular Q, pugs of much lower skill level (as evidenced by the horrid builds we have been seeing) are playing a much higher competition then they normally would.

Edited by The Mechromancer, 24 December 2014 - 07:14 PM.

[Master Pain]

You are right, they shouldn't balance clan vs IS based on 12 man Clan teams vs 12 pug IS teams. Balancing based on 12 clan pugs vs 12 IS pugs should be considered though. Those 2 teams should be evenly matched. But in my opinion from the matches i have been in, The clan mechs are far superior. As a pug, I have never been ROFLSTOMP'd by any IS 12 man team. Every match vs a clan pug team(12 random clan players), I have been ROFLSTOMP'd every time.

[Mystere]

Geist Null, on 24 December 2014 - 07:07 PM, said:

it will never be balanced for skill levels. it will never be balanced for number of faction players. it will never have balanced maps or balanced mechs. its a team game for min/max players. I don't understand how people didn't understand that after the first week of its release. personally I found it boring charging the generator over and over and have gone back to playing other modes where the focus is more on combat.

I've seen both all-Falcon and all-Steiner teams win on the attack via attrition. So I know it is possible.

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

As a pug, I have never been ROFLSTOMP'd by any IS 12 man team.

The best Steiner units are fighting desperate battles against Clan Jade Falcon.

Edited by Mystere, 24 December 2014 - 07:20 PM.

[The Mechromancer]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 07:13 PM, said:

You are right, they shouldn't balance clan vs IS based on 12 man Clan teams vs 12 pug IS teams. Balancing based on 12 clan pugs vs 12 IS pugs should be considered though. Those 2 teams should be evenly matched. But in my opinion from the matches i have been in, The clan mechs are far superior. As a pug, I have never been ROFLSTOMP'd by any IS 12 man team. Every match vs a clan pug team(12 random clan players), I have been ROFLSTOMP'd every time.

Clan mechs also tend to shield players from "bad builds"

There are no Gauss/LRM XL engine Atlases or XL crabs on a clan team.

Clan and IS mechs have the same ceiling of performance (nod to the T-wolf / storm crow over their comparitive tonnage) but clans have a much higher floor.

The mechs with c-endo + c-ferro are the problem children IMO.

Edited by The Mechromancer, 24 December 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Master Pain]

The Mechromancer, on 24 December 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Clan mechs also tend to shield players from "bad builds"

There are no Gauss/LRM XL engine Atlases or XL crabs on a clan team.

Clan and IS mechs have the same ceiling of performance (nod to the T-wolf / storm crow over their comparitive tonnage) but clans have a much higher floor.

That seems to mean that clan mechs have an advantage.

[The Mechromancer]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 07:24 PM, said:

That seems to mean that clan mechs have an advantage.

No.

IS mechs can perform just as well, if not better. Stupid builds kill IS mechs. And the are far too many.

Mechlab is a skill too.

Edited by The Mechromancer, 24 December 2014 - 07:30 PM.

[Master Pain]

Both sides have pluses and minuses as far as the mechlab is concerned. IS mechs can change engines and change endo/ferro and clan mechs can change their hardpoints. Both types of mechs are very customizable. The problem is the large range advantage for clan mechs makes a huge difference in cw. plus they can carry more of the weapons with superior range because those weapons weigh less.

Edited by Master Pain, 24 December 2014 - 07:41 PM.

[gcmdr chris]

so far 0/7 running pug groups. im sorry but the skill level of pugs compared to units is just pathetic. doesnt matter clan vs is clan vs clan or is vs is. pugs just dont have the skill threshhold required to win a match against a half way coordinated team. simple fact. join a unit if you dont want to lose.

[Prussian Havoc]

gcmdr chris, on 24 December 2014 - 07:42 PM, said:

so far 0/7 running pug groups. im sorry but the skill level of pugs compared to units is just pathetic. doesnt matter clan vs is clan vs clan or is vs is. pugs just dont have the skill threshhold required to win a match against a half way coordinated team. simple fact. join a unit if you dont want to lose.

One on one most PUGs are competitive with Individuals who rely on teams to cover for their Min/Maxing.


(Now, yes... I know this is a very controversial statement to some of our fellow gamers out there.)

Where it quickly falls completely to pieces for a PUG is in Lance and Company Tactics / Fire and Maneuver.

A group of 12 PUGs are just so many "Barbarians at the Gates." EACH a great warrior in his own right within his culture but in groups, unable to derive more than the most basic synergies from Lance and Company formations, maneuvers, synchronized and semi-autonomous operations.

Just like a Premade Team Gamer, a Roman Soldier was no faster, stronger, more coordinated or knowledgeable than a given Gallic Warrior (PUG) he might face, could be expected to be. Where the Premade Team Gamer (just as his Roman counterpart in this example) has advantage is the sure knowledge that repetition has drilled into him of what is expected of him and what he can expect of his Lance and Company mates.

Given that both gamers are using only fair, just and equal software: a superior PUG matches a superior Premade Gamer, an average PUG matches your average Premade Gamer and all can easily handle a novice gamer whether that Novice be either a PUG or a Premade Gamer.


Thus it is organization, inculcation, indoctrination and repetitive practice/drills that give rise to the very real advantage of 12-man Premades in MWO.

It is only overweening arrogance, pride or ego (something that in truth we all must deal with from time to time) that all to often compel weak individuals to mistake their Team's inherent synergies for their own personal skill and capabilities.


Game to game, don't insult your competition. Denigrate, dissuade and deter enough opposing gamers and our Community will wither and die, leaving only the eventual PvE.

Edited by Prussian Havoc, 24 December 2014 - 10:18 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Mystere, on 24 December 2014 - 06:05 PM, said:

I have seen IS PUGs beat Clan teams with at least a 6-man. The question now is, why can't you?

Been pugging the Kurita border. They... don't play like we do on the Jade Falcon border. None of which play like the Dav/Mar border.

Nothing like dropping into a pug game, attacking an elite Clan team who is defending Boreal and the 5man IS group you're dropping with says 'No problem. We'll stay at range and snipe them'. They were totally serious. They functionally camped their own spawn while *attacking Boreal*.

As I'm sure you're finding the IS playing against Jade Falcon has a pretty solid grasp of tactics to do so, even some of the pugs are onboard. Smoke Jags are having trouble making headway against Kurita and the mixed groups defending Kurita worlds don't have the same tool set that most the other fronts do.

You'll find most fronts seems to have their own little inbred tactics and approaches. Some are more successful than others. Kurita has a brutal row to hoe; they can't devote units in any effective numbers to any one front. They don't have the time or resources to coordinate staged and staggered waves for specific tactical approaches, they don't have the people to stack 12mans in a queue and roll it back, etc. etc.

Not trying to say anything bad about anyone. The Dav/Mar border is hardcore because both Davion and Marik have high enough populations that are active enough to work out, cross-train and deploy complex tactics and training, then use them against EACH OTHER and in turn have to develop counter-strategies. You don't have that on most Clanner borders due to the nature of pug defense vs Clanners and low populations among the IS factions fighting the Clans.

[Aresye]

Master Pain, on 24 December 2014 - 06:51 PM, said:

You guys are right. I'm clearly the worst player in the Inner Sphere. I am single handedly dragging down my team with my mere presence. Every single game I play, I remove any chance for my team to win. I am so sorry I ever tried. Clearly 1 bad player out of 12 is more than enough to doom any team to getting its ass handed to them every time.

Actually, you very well could be.

You see, it doesn't matter if you're the best player or the worst. If a team has even ONE player that's doing their own thing and not working towards the collective group effort, the team falls apart. That's why there's so much emphasis on getting the first kill in the normal solo/group queues. That one kill creates an advantage to the team that still has 12 mechs, which makes it easier to get the 2nd kill, then the 3rd, and so on.

Called the snowballing effect, and it doesn't just happen with kills.

Don't believe me? I'll just use myself as an example.

The past 3 leaderboard tournaments I've placed 2nd, 1st, and 10th, respectively. I've almost always been the top scorer on my team, win or lose, and very often the top scorer in the game. I got into a habit of thinking I always had to carry, so I became more aggressive.

Within my Clan, I've gotten angry at those that drop with me on countless occasions, talking about how they need to step it up, how I don't like carrying them, etc.

Guess who was bringing down the team?
That's right. It was me.

You see, it didn't matter that I frequently got top damage. I was in a solo mindset, and wasn't playing with my team. I was being overly aggressive in my maneuvering that I frequently got myself taken out of the occasion early on, which put the team down a player. Doesn't matter how much damage I did. They still have 12 mechs. My team has 11. I am far more valuable to stick with the team as a team player than I am to be a good solo player.

Once I learned this, I started throttling back, forcing myself to work with my team. The result? We started winning more matches. Never would have thought.

Now, I'm not telling you this to brag, or anything of that sort. I'm 27. I'm beyond thinking of myself too highly in video games. I'm telling you this because multiple people have already said the same thing, but it seems perhaps they weren't using the right examples? Whatever it is, the message wasn't getting through.

I know it seems like people are attacking you by saying you're probably the weakest link, the common denominator, etc. Trust me, we aren't trying to piss you off. It comes across as harsh, but it's a lesson I think most of us had to learn the hard way. Individuals fail. Teams win.