104 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

EDIT: v4 fixed sheet uploaded with errors pointed out corrected. (w thx to andi and metus)
I am retaining the links to the original sheet at the bottom of the post so people's posts make sense.
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A little cataloging I did. This is based off smurfy values.

I grouped the weapons by family then listed out some comparison points for each and marked the winner with a green, losers with red, and ties or N/As with yellow.

Its simple: if a number is supposed to be big, like damage, then the one with the biggest number gets marked green. If a number is supposed to be small, like weight, then the one with the smallest number gets marked green.

I then tallied up the wins on the right.

Quickly saw people may want to see how the more intangibles stack up like front loading, hitscan, etc, so I added those columns to the right and tallied their totals separately. Traits don't have winners or losers since its subjective, so if a weapon operated in that fashion it got a green, if it didn't it got a red, simple as that.

Then I did a pass and added up winners and losers. I did this just in straight family comparisons.

Then I totaled them with Traits thrown in.

Then I totaled them with exclusive weapons thrown in, but not Traits. So it doesn't get thrown off by one side having more or less weapon choices.

Just something I found useful for myself on an idle afternoon. Use as you please.




Looking purely at advantages vs disadvantages, and NOT including traits or exclusive weapons, clan weapons have roughly twice the advantages of IS weapons, when measuring quantifiable, solid, numbers.

BUT, when you throw in traits, which are subjective (fps guys will tell you front load wins while flightsim vets - masters of holding a targeting lead - will tell you suppression and adjustment wins, etc), that gap shrinks.

Which means how a weapon works has an impact - we knew this. Hence the separated traits section.

FINALLY, when you add in exclusives such as the streaks and ultras flavors that one side has access to that the other does not have as an option, the gap balloons.


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EDIT - I have this in excel so if anyone wants it send me an IM with email address and I'll send over. I also may have some mistakes in there (like smurfy's lists the IS LBX range as 1620 which I think is a typo so I left the two LB10xs equal in the range column) - so please point out any mistakes. (Again, I'm not talking about debating merits of traits).
(Per the first couple pages, expected butthurt from some quarters confirmed. Simple numbers can be embarrassing to some people.)

Here are the links to the originals with errors.
http://imageshack.co...3304/URoOem.png
http://imageshack.co...2825/wbMCxV.png

Edited by Hillslam, 23 December 2014 - 12:27 PM.

[Hillslam]

Some more info:

• Hitscan - means no transit time
  
• Pinpoint - means where you point is where the damage is delivered. It has nothing to do with aim. A LRM, SRM or Streak is not pinpoint. An AC or Laser or PPC is. (MGs wouldn't be pinpoint since they use a cone)
  
• Suppress and Adjust - means the weapon delivers damage over time, giving the shooter the ability to adjust aim and deliver some damage (flight sim pilots love this, FPS guys hate it). Additional trait of suppression of target.
  
• Front loaded damage - means damage delivered all in one hit (but not necessarily one location)
  
• No Min Range - just like it sounds.

EDIT: I forgot MGs and Flamers. But who cares about those twinky weapons *runs and hides*

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 03:39 PM.

[The Boz]

Instead of red/green, I'd use "points in relation to", just to provide greater resolution. But that would require much more work...

I applaud your effort!

[Hillslam]

Thanks. I wanted clear win/loss, hence the red/green (assigning a 1 to win would have made my spreadsheet easier to do conditional summing, but I was fooling around on my tablet while my kid was sick on the couch so I couldn't really program...)

If I used a points system then I'd have to assign some sort of leveled scale with an atomic unit of currency.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[KraftySOT]

I disagree that "flight sim guys love it"

Im a flight sim guy. I dont like it.

But then again, I wasnt some noob in a Dweebfire, spraying bullets all over creation.

Gimmie a 20mm through the nose, and a better rate of climb. You can keep your suppress and adjust.

[Hillslam]

Yeah but the Jug outdives em all!

But yeah thats why the mode of fire is a trait and not a comp.

Edited by Hillslam, 22 December 2014 - 03:37 PM.

[KraftySOT]

Aye I totally get that. Just making light of it. All us Luftwaffles would probably disagree because were used to pinpoint snap shots on BnZ runs. It was about the alpha strike there for us too lol

That jug...and the runstang...smh...and no one but aces high gave you a Ta-152 to compete. Always stuck chasing you guys all over creation in the Dora.

[Jman5]

Nice job. Obviously though this is only telling part of the story since quirks change so much about weapon balance. Of course that would be a bear to tackle with so many mechs/quirks. Perhaps cherry picking a few of the most used mechs and comparing them with a similarly tonned/equipped counterpart.

Edited by Jman5, 22 December 2014 - 03:46 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

A CERPPC is technically not more powerful.. Yes it does more damage total than an IS ERPPC, but only 10 is done on the contact spot. 2.5 damage spreads each direction from that component with the spread damage being lost if no component exists in that direction. i.e. you hit the armor and 2.5 spreads to the ST but the other 2.5 evaporates.

Also the CERLL may do the most damage but also has a longer beam duration making it spread easier over multiple components and terrain interference.

Unfortunately with the way PGI 'balanced' clan weaponry they really aren't better at all. Just about every weapon system has pros and cons that contrast with each other. IS has better pinpoint, sustained fire, and heat management while clans provide better damage overall dependent on player skill to keep on target, worse heat management, but overall lighter weapons. Clans and IS have different styles of play which is supported by lore reasons. IS are used to guerrilla hit and run tactics while the Clans have always been honor bound to face one another in frontal combat. This is seen by the Clan's damage being spread out over longer fire durations and (while the number of bullets per salvo need to at least be lowered...) number of times an AC fires in one salvo, which isn't canon but effectively balances the clans out with IS in terms of superior weaponry.


Overall though applause at the table and grouping. I approve of the traits you used to compare the weapon categories and it makes me excited for the IS to get their counterparts to the unique clan weaponry listed currently. Also for PGI to get the AC/LBX ammo swap mechanic to work which will be a major game changer and I believe lead the way to a correct balance of Clan ballistic weaponry.

Edited by MauttyKoray, 22 December 2014 - 03:48 PM.

[Fishbulb333]

Struggling to understand a number of things here, but let's start with the way you've scored PPCs.. Can you explain why you've scored clan PPCs much higher than the IS version before adding "traits" (quirks i assume), then after adding the quirks (which massively boost numbers in the IS' favor) you then scored clan PPCs even higher?

If I've interpreted this correctly you're saying that before factoring in quirks clan ppc (4 points) are better than IS ppc (0 + 1 points).. Then somehow even after adding in quirks like -50% heat generation, 40% velocity increase, 25% cooldown, the clan weapon's lead rockets ahead to 7 points vs 2/3?

This makes no sense at all, and even if it did raw weapon stats are far from the only thing balancing IS vs Clans..

[MauttyKoray]

Fishbulb333, on 22 December 2014 - 03:44 PM, said:

Struggling to understand a number of things here, but let's start with the way you've scored PPCs.. Can you explain why you've scored clan PPCs much higher than the IS version before adding "traits" (quirks i assume), then after adding the quirks (which massively boost numbers in the IS' favor) you then scored clan PPCs even higher?

If I've interpreted this correctly you're saying that before factoring in quirks clan ppc (4 points) are better than IS ppc (0 + 1 points).. Then somehow even after adding in quirks like -50% heat generation, 40% velocity increase, 25% cooldown, the clan weapon's lead rockets ahead to 7 points vs 2/3?

This makes no sense at all, and even if it did raw weapon stats are far from the only thing balancing IS vs Clans..

Traits aren't quirks, they're literally the traits of a weapon. How they work, what they do, what happens when you fire them, etc. Its a separated category from the comparison and was used mainly to group them from what I understand. The reason clans have more in terms of score for Traits is simply because there is more clan weaponry as far as I can guess. Otherwise pretty much all the equivelent weapon systems in the IS share the same exact traits for the most part other than the different in LRMS firing patterns and the AC's single vs multi shots.

[MauttyKoray]

I think the biggest issue with this though is that you really can't compare like weapon systems with those of the same 'improved' system. To more accurately compare weaponry I believe you would need to make separate comparisons. i.e. compare LL and ERLL, then compare ERLL and CERLL. The point of clan weaponry is that it took the benefits of a system, such as the ERLL's extended range, and then worked on diminishing the negative effects and improving it further, resulting in a longer range, acceptable heat generation, and improved damage output (I'm not sure if the longer burn time is technically part of the BT rules or just a balance done by PGI but it also should be taken into account when talking about MWO).

Duration for beams weapons should technically also be a category.

[Fishbulb333]

Right yeah thanks mautty, I see the traits thing now.. However I'm still not sure what, if anything this is all supposed to prove..



This is potentially very misleading, people might look at this and think "wow, clan weapons have WAY more points than IS weapons, finally someone did the maths and proved it.." But it's worth noting that this system has an equal number of potential points per faction & weapon, but Clans have a pool of 33 weapons to score with, compared to 23 on the IS side, so it's totally unfair from the outset.

Also, ignoring the quirks which make a huge difference to weapon balance pretty much renders the whole exercise pointless. Still, pretty charts, I like the colors.

[The Boz]

Hillslam, on 22 December 2014 - 03:29 PM, said:

Thanks. I wanted clear win/loss, hence the red/green (assigning a 1 to win would have made my spreadsheet easier to do conditional summing, but I was fooling around on my tablet while my kid was sick on the couch so I couldn't really program...)

If I used a points system then I'd have to assign some sort of leveled scale with an atomic unit of currency.

CSRM > SRM, but not by the simple "better or worse" color coding here, giving a point to SRM for damage.

[MauttyKoray]

Yeah, like I said, comparing ALL of the weapon systems (such as the LL, ERLL, and CERLL at once) isn't the best way to do it and sort of misleading. The clans only have a CERLL, not a CLL, so only the IS's ERLL should be compared to it. Plus the systems that Clans have that IS don't isn't really a comparison at that point, just a "IS don't have anything like it cause Battletech timeline reasons" right now.

Wait a second... -rubs eyes- Was there a duration category there before I said something or am I just blind?

Edited by MauttyKoray, 22 December 2014 - 04:25 PM.

[The Boz]

MauttyKoray, on 22 December 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

Yeah, like I said, comparing ALL of the weapon systems (such as the LL, ERLL, and CERLL at once) isn't the best way to do it and sort of misleading. The clans only have a CERLL, not a CLL, so only the IS's ERLL should be compared to it.

Wait a second... -rubs eyes- Was there a duration category there before I said something or am I just blind?

It was always there.

[Brody319]

Yea Clans have more guns. And only the ones the IS have are any good.
PPCs, Gauss, MLs, LLs, LB-X 10s, pulse lasers, and SRMs.

Lets just give the IS our UAC 2, 5, 10s, and 20s (stream fire like the clan's currently are). the LRMs, and the LB-X 2, 5, and 20s.

Then they can have a bunch of weapons that are totally useless.

[Fishbulb333]

The Boz, on 22 December 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

CSRM > SRM, but not by the simple "better or worse" color coding here, giving a point to SRM for damage.

Do you even think before you rattle off posts? Maybe try looking at the actual numbers, here's a link http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/equipment

IS SRM-6 - Damage - 12.9 Heat 4.00 Cooldown 4.00

Clan SRM-6 - Damage 12.00 Heat 4.00 Cooldown 4.00

So, no, clan SRMs are not actually better than IS SRMs, at least not on damage. They do however weigh less and take up less crit slots. Personally I'd rather have the damage and the IS ability to customise the hell out of builds to make room for whatever weapons you want. Also, quirks.

[1453 R]

Breaking Headline: "Hillslam hates the Clan technology base and wants it removed from MWO, this time w/graphics."
More on this story in our 8:00 show

.
..
...seriously though, Hillslam. Are you ever going to give up on getting the Clans yanked out of MWO? It's not even about balance anymore with most of y'all. Yeebus.

[NovaFury]

This is why there are quirks. The funny thing is, the IS MPL on a Thunderbolt 5SS has the same range as the clan MPL, and is superior in every other way imaginable.

Funny, huh? I mean, clan MPLs are already pretty good. Gman lists a comp stormcrow build around them.