614 replies to this topic

[CoffiNail]

Only problem is I see them going along the lines of MWLL where the cockpit really is the mechs cockpit. Not some HUD overlay. So the view-bob is completely dependent on the Mech's animations. I actually very much like how MWLL has done this.

[Jumbik]

I thought that we are going to play the Mechwarrior and not the Mech it self ... 1st person for me.

[Gorith]

Jumbik, on 06 February 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I thought that we are going to play the Mechwarrior and not the Mech it self ... 1st person for me.

3rd person... I am looking over my mechwarriors sholder... problem solved now we can has 3rd person to make those complaining about 1st person happy.

[OzBrad]

Well, my opinion is. You are playing in a Battlemech which is involving sitting on your arse in a COCKPIT correct? Its makes it realistic to have just the cockpit view. Its like me fying a big airliner plane in real life and pressing a button to see a outside view just not realistic (unless you have REAR cameras installed) . I must admit though if you mech looks cool and you want to see it then yeah ok but to play like that meh.

Thats my 2c

[NameTheftVictim]

Well, in MechWarrior 2, I would play in first-person while in combat, and third-person while going from nav point to nav point. I do feel that as a mech simulation, first person should be the primary (and encouraged) viewing mode (plus, the cockpit controls are pretty to look at), but I don't mind third-person as an option, if only so that I could oogle at my 'Mech every once in a while.

[Rayge]

I have to agree that I would prefer it to be first person only, mainly because of my recent experience with the Mechwarrior Living Legends Crysis mod. Being in first person makes me want to turn up my subwoofer and make the house shake. being in third person just isn't the same.

If they add 'pilot injury' effects like they mentioned, it might even be an important gameplay factor.

[Ravn]

1st person combat is a must. I wouldn't mind 3rd person as long as all non navigation systems were inoperable while looking over the shoulder. Urban navigation can be a nightmare without 3rd person.

[Tryg]

I think part of the nightmare of navigating in first person stems a lot from not being required to do it. If you learned from the start how to navigate in close quarters through the first person, rather then toggling over to third, you would, over time, get a feel for how the various mechs handled and wouldn't find it so complicated.

As in most things, I think experience tends to be one of the most valuable assets you can arm yourself with.

[GrimFist]

A mech warrior lives in the cockpit. Video feeds for newsies can bite me and my PPC.

Based on the balance they seek, cockpit view is the only way to go. Our people would be using the 3rd person view for a wider range of vision.

[Pht]

Ravn, on 06 February 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

1st person combat is a must. I wouldn't mind 3rd person as long as all non navigation systems were inoperable while looking over the shoulder. Urban navigation can be a nightmare without 3rd person.

3rd person view was only a problem because the previous developers didn't build their games to not render anything not visible to the Pilot via the viewscreen and the 'mech's sensors, visual, radar, and otherwise. If the pilot nor the mech can see it ... terrain, unit, or otherwise... don't render it.

Tryg, on 06 February 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

I think part of the nightmare of navigating in first person stems a lot from not being required to do it.

While I agree with you, the previous games at least have not had anything like the amount of information displayed in the cockpit view that is available to a MechWarrior. 'Mechs have sensors all over them - including visual ones; and the main screen or the neurohelmet hud usually have some sort of 360 compressed into 180/160 degrees display mode... That's not including the other in cockpit sensor readouts.

3PV can be done right; and there are a few legitimate reasons to do so.

However, if the Devs can get the visual and other sensor information working very well in the cockpit, I would be happy with having only that.

[Tryg]

The difficulty comes in preventing toggling 3rd person view becoming so advantageous that you have to do it or risk having one hand tied behind your back during matches. Aside from the less-obstructed field of view, the suggestion that preventing the rendering of anything not viewable from the cockpit /would/ negate a lot of the issues people have with the third-person perspective. However, from a programming standpoint, how plausible would such a concept be?

I myself am not a programmer, however, this sounds like it would be incredibly complicated, and even if the devs have the know-how to do it, do they have the resources in time and bodies to dedicate to ensuring this is coded properly? Or would doing so force them to take bodies off of other projects that could quite possibly be more important in the long run?

If such features aren't added in, and yet third person still is, it will create again the type of system where a vast majority of the population will wind up using it, not out of a like of it, but rather so that they aren't placed at a disadvantage for not using it.

[Ravn]

Roger that. My post was based on previous increments of cockpit views. If there was a true compressed 360 view, I would have no need for 3rd person.

[Pht]

Tryg, on 06 February 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

The difficulty comes in preventing toggling 3rd person view becoming so advantageous that you have to do it or risk having one hand tied behind your back during matches. Aside from the less-obstructed field of view, the suggestion that preventing the rendering of anything not viewable from the cockpit /would/ negate a lot of the issues people have with the third-person perspective. However, from a programming standpoint, how plausible would such a concept be?

Raytrace from the sensor mounts and the cockpit viewscreens. Anything not touched by the rays, no see. I gather that would be possible. Oh, and the view, if well done, would give you all the information you get from a proper in-cockpit view, but very seamlessly; which is bad or good, depending on how much you want to force people to really be piloting a 'Mech.

[DeltaForce95]

i like the idea of first person better, yeah they can have little cameras set up but they don't cover your FOV you'll still see out of your cockpit

[Sgt Sarge S Sarge Jr]

I support forced 1st person. But at the same time, i agree with another poster. Some sort of short range camera that could be launched, and viewable from inside the cockpit. It cannot stray far from the mech, and can be spotted and destroyed easily; what is wrong with that?

[Sam Slade]

Just to reiterate; the primary reason for wanting 3rd person options has been for people with motion sickness and the like. Turning 'bobbing' and other motion effects off will not change this for many conditions, particularly those associated with depth perception.

The 3rd person perspective gives a visual 'anchor' with which the rest of the game-world can be associated. So. we're not talking a 500 metre zoom function here. Removing the 'advantage' of 3rd person is simply a case of altering draw distances and having full render only available to the 1st person cone of vision.

If for example their are structures that you can walk through and structures that will stop you and damage you then you'd only know this seeing them with the benifit of Mech sensors a.k.a. the first person view cone.

I'll also reiterate the Asian market point; not having external view available will heavily impact customer loyalty in countries like China (where World of Tanks had to set up two servers just to handle the customer load... World of Giant Death Robots will probaly need to build a new damned internet).

[Thomas Hogarth]

Sam Slade, on 06 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Just to reiterate; the primary reason for wanting 3rd person options has been for people with motion sickness and the like.

That may well be the case for you, but I can't shake the feeling that at least some of the 3rd person supporters are MW4 vets that have learned to use the 3PV to devastating advantage against those that prefer immersion.

If the 3PV is to exist, it must not give additional information than 1PV, preferably down to not drawing buildings. Think about it: There's no reason to draw terrain if you're not wallhumping, trying to sneak a peek around a corner.

[Tryg]

Assuming the developers ensure the third-person perspective doesn't offer any advantages, such as being able to see around buildings or over hilltops, or offering a significantly increased field of view (meaning much wider then an in-cockpit view even without the cockpit prettyness all in place) you'll see a lot of the arguments against third-person fall off.

The reason so much hatred is in place now, is not so much the people with disabilities who can't play in first person, but the people who use it for substantial advantages over other players, which then forces other players to use it to not be hindranced. As several have said, if these benefits of it are mitigated to not be an advantage, you'll find the only complaints remaining will be the irrational ones.

[Solis Obscuri]

Sam Slade, on 06 February 2012 - 07:52 AM, said:

The simple solution to all the 3rd person demons that people have been ranting about is to only render active elements that fall within the 1st person 'cone of silence'. If you can't see it in 1stperson, it doesn't exist in 3rd person. The 'hardcore' Mechwarrior/Battletech community isn't very big by modern market standards. It wouldn't even come close to the Warhammer community for example and their MMO was a bit of a disaster... perhaps Star Trek would be a better comparison? Another MASSIVE MMO right? Be realistic folks; unless you want a game running on sub-par servers with a massive latency because the company cannot afford to pay prime time load costs then knuckle under and accept a few small concessions... Do you think those in the Asian market would perhaps like to see their giant death robot from the outside? Have you ever played a Mech-ish game developed by an Asian company or with the Asian market in mind that didn't have a predominantly 3rd person playstyle? I'm not saying we want Macross or Gundam... I'm saying those that do spend thousands on toys so they can see the death-bot... doesn't allow them to pilot it at all but lets them see it. It's win/win: putting in a 3rd person option minus active environmental renders that impact on the game fixes the health and the 'gundam' problems.

Saying 3rd person cameras are needed for motion sickness holds about as much water as saying that some people are afraid of violence directed at their person, so there should be an invulnerability toggle so they can feel safe. See my previous comments in this thread.

I also don't care how many potential gold farmers in Chinese prison will be inconvenienced by not being able to fire missiles over hilltops and around corners without the magic free camera LOS.

OzBrad, on 06 February 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

Well, my opinion is. You are playing in a Battlemech which is involving sitting on your arse in a COCKPIT correct? Its makes it realistic to have just the cockpit view. Its like me fying a big airliner plane in real life and pressing a button to see a outside view just not realistic (unless you have REAR cameras installed) . I must admit though if you mech looks cool and you want to see it then yeah ok but to play like that meh. Thats my 2c

Airplanes sometimes mount external cameras on the wings, stabilizers, or in protrusions on the skin in order to help with ground maneuvering and safe operation of cargo doors, etc. Having a skin-view camera, and different view toggles wouldn't really bother me. I just don't want any kind of orbiting "Free Camera" that can be used to exploit game mechanics.

[Pht]

Solis Obscuri, on 06 February 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

I also don't care how many potential gold farmers in Chinese prison will be inconvenienced by not being able to fire missiles over hilltops and around corners without the magic free camera LOS.

Um, even though the chinese market usually has to be put onto another server to stem these issues ... quite frankly, that is a LOT of cash flow into the coffers of PGI to support MWO.

The asian market is not to be lightly dismissed.

Edited by Pht, 06 February 2012 - 07:21 PM.