330 replies to this topic

[IsaAurinkoinen]

Maps and balance on these are quite good, but biggest problem on CW is how planet flips are done.

Only one timezone matters, static cheasefire time makes all but last 2-3h irrelevant. This pisses of many non NA players and units, because your efforts dont matter at all. Fixing this problem should be priority number one. Other unbalances are quite minor compared to static cheasefire time.

[Rokollus]

Clan is not as op as they should be. But its not balanced.

Currently CWBeta is being used for 'metrics' that will ultimately provide an inaccurate and skewed result.

2 CW matches vs Clan yesterday and neither 'attacking clan' was interested in 'attacking' they were racking up score (I have no problem with this) but it does not provide accurate metric for CWBeta when organized Clans are 'gaming' the system in this manner.

[Donas]

Parkensis, on 30 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

I have been playing CW for weeks now and we can see these battles against the clan mech are not balanced! They are faster, stronger, sturdier and better that any IS mech or group combined and rigthfully so!

....Star system of drops, the challenges, the bids, etc...

So until this is changed, I vote IS side boycotts CW altogether!
For myself I will no longer play CW until this is done proper!

Park.

Ok, there are a few problems with this in my experience. Granted this is just my experience, so take it with whatever amount of salt you need to get it to taste right.

1. The largest source of imbalance in the CW matches is Teamwork. A group of IS pugs, with only a reasonably cohesive amount of leadership in-match can take a similarly pugged group of Clan players to school, on either map, in either direction. The current balance in mechs from IS to Clan feels great. they do not have the same advantages and disadvantages, but they do offset eachother nicely. Now, put wither of those pug groups (clan or IS) across from a good 12 man? Its nearly always a blowout. The coordination is a HUGE advantage, as it should be. That might prompt a request for separating the 12-man and pug ques, but I contend that they should NOT be separate for the following reason.

2. The largest source of imbalance in the metagame of taking CW planets is coordination between units. There is a science to taking planets. And while its done largely in the last few hours, (something that would be solved in my opinion by making the attack phase 26 hours or more so that the final push rotates through all the timezones) its not as simple as just pounding a planet at the buzzer.

As an example, if you are losing a planet badly and its 3 hours till ceasefire the common reaction would be to defend defend defend. And thats false. It won't work because your opponent can simple save up their good groups to flood it at the timer with highly coordinated 12 mans that will force all the pugs out of the que on that planet. End result? Lose one planet. Never threaten the other. The enemy never even has to react or change their plan. You've limited their ability to make a mistake by not offering them any decisions to mess up. You've done half their job for them.

If instead you press the attack on the planet that shares that same border. You force the other faction to redeploy. They will need to split their elite guys up between shoring up that planet and attacking yours. The net result is that now you can split forces up and you get the mismatch of 12's on Mixed groups, plus the option of having your mixed units and pugs draw out a fight on a 12 man, to keep them in the match and away from the que for longer. Pinning them in a match. (Note, I do not mean inactivity. That is just rude, but you can take your sweet time making sure you're organized and pushing with maximum effect. If they don't like it, they can come get you, increasing their risk and your potential to win) End result: Heads up fighting on 2 planets, and more than likely you'll trade one for one, with the potential to take both if they screw up their redeployment, and you capitalize.

3. going 10-12 would be debilitating for nearly every clan drop with the current mechs. Don't buy it? Have 2 guys disco at the beginning of a match and see how much harder it is. Its nearly unwinnable. (since the end result isn't 12-10, its 48 to 40. If I had 8 more mechs, I could have most likely won every single close match I've lost) Now, if you have a "Canon Event" for a weekend where the all the mechs are stock canon builds, with single heat sinks, no efficiency or skill unlocks, and the like? Now you're talking. But I'll tell you what. That will be a novelty that wears off FAST for the IS guys.

4. The challenges etc... Even in lore some of the clans stopped observing this once they realized that the IS pilots would use it as a tactical advantage. And as its a player behavior, there's no controlling it. As part of the "Canon Event"? I like it.

5. Boycotting. Terrible idea. You are in such a vast minority here as to methodology (considering how many people waited for CW like it was the holy grail) that the ONLY thing you'll gain by boycotting it is... well... nothing. You'll remove yourself and every experience you could have had to support your ideas from the data pool. That is essentially abandoning your own cause. Rallying 20 people to remove themselves from a pool of thousands will serve absolutely no purpose.

[Donas]

Rokollus, on 31 December 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

neither 'attacking clan' was interested in 'attacking' they were racking up score (I have no problem with this)

Yeah, and considering the sheer amount of time they've (the big name comp units) invested in honing their ability to quickly and efficiently cut mechs down, I can hardly blame them for sticking to what they know, as frustrating as it can be. Just means that the rest of us have to change the game on them somehow and force them out of their game. THats a challenge.

[Strikeshadow]

Donas, on 31 December 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Ok, there are a few problems with this in my experience. Granted this is just my experience, so take it with whatever amount of salt you need to get it to taste right.

1. The largest source of imbalance in the CW matches is Teamwork. A group of IS pugs, with only a reasonably cohesive amount of leadership in-match can take a similarly pugged group of Clan players to school, on either map, in either direction. The current balance in mechs from IS to Clan feels great. they do not have the same advantages and disadvantages, but they do offset eachother nicely. Now, put wither of those pug groups (clan or IS) across from a good 12 man? Its nearly always a blowout. The coordination is a HUGE advantage, as it should be. That might prompt a request for separating the 12-man and pug ques, but I contend that they should NOT be separate for the following reason.

2. The largest source of imbalance in the metagame of taking CW planets is coordination between units. There is a science to taking planets. And while its done largely in the last few hours, (something that would be solved in my opinion by making the attack phase 26 hours or more so that the final push rotates through all the timezones) its not as simple as just pounding a planet at the buzzer.

As an example, if you are losing a planet badly and its 3 hours till ceasefire the common reaction would be to defend defend defend. And thats false. It won't work because your opponent can simple save up their good groups to flood it at the timer with highly coordinated 12 mans that will force all the pugs out of the que on that planet. End result? Lose one planet. Never threaten the other. The enemy never even has to react or change their plan. You've limited their ability to make a mistake by not offering them any decisions to mess up. You've done half their job for them.

If instead you press the attack on the planet that shares that same border. You force the other faction to redeploy. They will need to split their elite guys up between shoring up that planet and attacking yours. The net result is that now you can split forces up and you get the mismatch of 12's on Mixed groups, plus the option of having your mixed units and pugs draw out a fight on a 12 man, to keep them in the match and away from the que for longer. Pinning them in a match. (Note, I do not mean inactivity. That is just rude, but you can take your sweet time making sure you're organized and pushing with maximum effect. If they don't like it, they can come get you, increasing their risk and your potential to win) End result: Heads up fighting on 2 planets, and more than likely you'll trade one for one, with the potential to take both if they screw up their redeployment, and you capitalize.

3. going 10-12 would be debilitating for nearly every clan drop with the current mechs. Don't buy it? Have 2 guys disco at the beginning of a match and see how much harder it is. Its nearly unwinnable. (since the end result isn't 12-10, its 48 to 40. If I had 8 more mechs, I could have most likely won every single close match I've lost) Now, if you have a "Canon Event" for a weekend where the all the mechs are stock canon builds, with single heat sinks, no efficiency or skill unlocks, and the like? Now you're talking. But I'll tell you what. That will be a novelty that wears off FAST for the IS guys.

4. The challenges etc... Even in lore some of the clans stopped observing this once they realized that the IS pilots would use it as a tactical advantage. And as its a player behavior, there's no controlling it. As part of the "Canon Event"? I like it.

5. Boycotting. Terrible idea. You are in such a vast minority here as to methodology (considering how many people waited for CW like it was the holy grail) that the ONLY thing you'll gain by boycotting it is... well... nothing. You'll remove yourself and every experience you could have had to support your ideas from the data pool. That is essentially abandoning your own cause. Rallying 20 people to remove themselves from a pool of thousands will serve absolutely no purpose.

It really doesn't. Pugs should boycott CW until it's fun for them. You want to use them as canon fodder. I for one find your entire post supremely offensive to PUGs. Go have your head examined. You have ego problems.

On second thought, your mentality is exactly the reason PUGs should boycott CW. Thank you for posting.

Edited by Strikeshadow, 31 December 2014 - 11:44 AM.

[Mystere]

Strikeshadow, on 31 December 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

It really doesn't. Pugs should boycott CW until it's fun for them. You want to use them as canon fodder. I for one find your entire post supremely offensive to PUGs. Go have your head examined. You have ego problems.

Well it's fun for me now, I do not feel like cannon fodder, and I most certainly do not find Donas' post offensive.

[Revis Volek]

Lukoi Banacek, on 30 December 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:

When you trade me for some 150kph lights capable of 32pt alpha's on a 2.25s (or less) cool-down, let's talk. Until then, you have your toys, we have ours. Post quirkening, IS has some great mechs. It's a disservice to discount them (which is why I dearly love playing mine...thunderbolt, thunderbolt, thunderbolt!).

ThunderWub
WubShee
Wubstarter
Dakka Dragon (ac5 perk one)
Quirked Hunchback
Huggin is even decent since perks

USE THE QUIRKS!

Rokollus, on 31 December 2014 - 05:19 AM, said:

Clan is not as op as they should be. But its not balanced.

Currently CWBeta is being used for 'metrics' that will ultimately provide an inaccurate and skewed result.

2 CW matches vs Clan yesterday and neither 'attacking clan' was interested in 'attacking' they were racking up score (I have no problem with this) but it does not provide accurate metric for CWBeta when organized Clans are 'gaming' the system in this manner.

Sometime we rush wave after wave until Omgea is down. Often takes as few as 10 minutes, but if there is not urgency (Planet is at 80% or more, less then 30 mins left until ceasefire, Small group and we found a good game.) to win it quickly we will CERTAINLY take the opportunity to farm some cbills and GXP, are you saying there is something wrong with trying to make some money. It goes both ways you know if we are shooting you you are shooting us and we all make an extra penny.

Better then beating the PUGS in 10 minutes, no one getting valid scores for stockings or anything like that and making it a loose loose for them. This way at least they made a buck and got a stuffer in the process.

It certainly DOES provide accurate metrics, There are two ways i have seen peeps win CW matches, Attrition and Zerg rush. Take your pick....

Edited by DarthRevis, 31 December 2014 - 11:59 AM.

[Strikeshadow]

Mystere, on 31 December 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Well it's fun for me now, I do not feel like cannon fodder, and I most certainly do not find Donas' post offensive.

You are sadistic to enjoy being pounded by 12 man pre-mades.

[operatorZ]

Strikeshadow, on 31 December 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

You are sadistic to enjoy being pounded by 12 man pre-mades.

25+ games in CW, never waited longer than 10 minutes (because I don't, I just go back to puglandia after 10min), lost to 12 mans 3 times, beat 12 mans with pugs 2 times. The other 20 games or so have been groups of pugs and units vs. each other and its been fun most of the time. That's just my experience, others may vary.

[Donas]

Strikeshadow, on 31 December 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

It really doesn't. Pugs should boycott CW until it's fun for them. You want to use them as canon fodder. I for one find your entire post supremely offensive to PUGs. Go have your head examined. You have ego problems.

On second thought, your mentality is exactly the reason PUGs should boycott CW. Thank you for posting.

Then I have not communicated effectively. Addressing your point more completely.

By using 12-mans to force the opposing faction into pulling their 12's off of an attack to defend, not only are your 12's that remain defending meeting more mixed companies, but your own mixed companies are also facing mixed opponents (ie. a fair fight). The methodology I'm describing doesnt make pugs canon fodder, it puts them in a position to be successful.

I don't see solo droppers as canon-fodder at all, I drop solo a lot. Its why I have gained the perspective I have. I've ben in pugs that have had their doors blown off, and been in ones that have beaten 12 mans with no more than a simple plan communicated effectively in <Team> chat.

Using 12 man groups as a means to force the opponent into a position that allows our 12s to hit mixed companies, and our mixed companies to have fair fights isn't a matter of ego. 12 people communicating simply have a tactical advantage over 12 that aren't.

That was the point I tried to make. if all you do is drop into defend, you are effectively putting every pug in your defend que up against a communicating 12-man, especially at crunch time. And thats not fun.

[Mystere]

Strikeshadow, on 31 December 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

You are sadistic to enjoy being pounded by 12 man pre-mades.

What makes you think I am being pounded?

And the word you are looking for is "masochistic".

[Willard Phule]

Parkensis, on 30 December 2014 - 11:36 AM, said:

To follow true lore, the clan should be reduce either in weight drop (less than 240, or augment the IS mechs to 300) or it could be a Drop CW in numbers like 10 clan mech versus 12 IS mechs.

I have been playing CW for weeks now and we can see these battles against the clan mech are not balanced! They are faster, stronger, sturdier and better that any IS mech or group combined and rigthfully so!

But in Battletech (Mechwarrior) lore the clans have ways to respect. Like the Star system of drops, the chalenges, the bids, etc... They were ultimatly vanquished bit their code of honor and disipline and more. Here in this game the players (for most of them) have none of that to follow making this an uneven fight...

So until this is changed, I vote IS side boycotts CW altogether!
For myself I will no longer play CW until this is done proper!

Park.

Yes! This right here!

But, first, you have to change the Clans from TTK to FLPPD. Give us back the single shell ACs and get rid of our ERPPC splash damage.

Once you give us the ability to swap out engines so we can have lights going faster than Cryengine can render, we'll be on even footing.

Other than that, the only way to reduce Clan numbers is to FORBID anyone from making an Alt account and dropping with us. Because I've run into that a LOT in FRR battles. FRR pilots with Alt accounts dropping in Trial mechs and doing everything they can to make us lose.

Hey, that's a good idea! I need to make an Alt named "Herp A. Derp" for FRR and try it on their side with Trials.....

(Not that it matters, but some clarification of your interpretation of Clan tradition. Bidding, as it is, is taken care of at some form of commander's level...Galaxy Commander, Binary Commander, Khan, etc. We, the rank and file, never know what happened...we just know which unit gets assigned where and what we're supposed to do.

As for the concept of "honor," I'll assume you're referring to Zelbriggen...that whole "one on one" thing all the IS pilots keep touting about.

There are several things you truly need to keep in mind, the first of which is that this is nothing more than a role-playing concept, not truly enforceable by anyone but peer pressure (like your unit). That being said, each clan approaches Zelbriggen differently, as well has having different levels of that dedication.

Smoke Jags, for instance, are probably the most strict in it's adherence. Clan Wolf is more lenient.

Either way, it doesn't apply to Inner Sphere mechs, except in rare instances. The Inner Sphere perverted this sacred ritual almost immediately after learning of it. They thought they were being sneaky....and for a while, they were. Until the Clans decided that Inner Sphere pilots had no more honor than the Bandit caste and were not deserving of Zelbriggen. Now, it's on.

As for the 10 v 12 thing, I agree, except that our weapons will have to be un-nerfed before that can happen. I don't want to hear any whining about how we're OP. We're not. Our 12 mans are just as brutal as yours, our herpaderp PUG groups are just as bad....worse in many cases.

Give us the ability to swap engines and switch our ACs to single round weapons and 10 v 12 sounds good to me.)

Strikeshadow, on 31 December 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

You are sadistic to enjoy being pounded by 12 man pre-mades.

Sadistic. I do not think that word means what you think it means. You might want to look it up.

I think the word you were looking for is "masochist." Sadists like to dish out pain, masochists like to receive it.

Edited by Willard Phule, 01 January 2015 - 05:50 AM.

[Max Liao]

Clan 'Mechs in tabletop were roughly balanced for one Clan star (five 'Mechs) to compete with one Inner Sphere company (twelve 'Mechs). I'd be cool with Clan 'Mechs being their naturally OP selves if we'd fight 12 vs 5, but we all know that's not going to happen.

Forget thinking about this game as MechWarrior, it has little to nothing to do with the Battletech universe other than the name. Some of this is cause by bad development (ECM, ghost heat, etc), some of this is caused by a large percentage of the player base who will min/max and just want to pew-pew stompy robots. Many don't know the lore/canon, while others don't care and just want to win.

Seriously, how can you impose one-vs-one fighting for the Clans? Maybe it would be cute to force them to negotiate/compete for drops, and while I believe a small minority would enjoy that aspect, most players will simply want to pew-pew stompy robots.

In strict video game terms, I see little wrong with the Clan 'Mechs as they are. They have high DPS and damage sustainment, while the Inner Sphere has high burst and alpha. The problem has more to do with limited maps and map designs (it's beta, give it time), and pugs -vs- premades.

This isn't MechWarrior Online, it's Giant Stompy Robots Online. When you can accept that conclusion you'll have a lot more fun and not worry about what Clans are supposed to have.

[Bluttrunken]

Donas, on 31 December 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

You are in such a vast minority here

Show me proof for this or stop talking so much nonsense.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 01 January 2015 - 10:36 AM.

[Priest4357]

operatorZ, on 30 December 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:

WOW ! an incredibly short sighted plan....If PGI is taking metrics of these battles...which they are....it is BETA CW....than every game you lose against clan mechs is one more point that might get a nerf to the clans in CW.

If you stop playing CW, than more people who can beat the clans with IS tech, and there are a lot of them, will win and your goal is less likely to happen.

TLDR: If you want clan nerfs...give evidence to PGI that they are OP by playing and losing games, if you just quit than PGI doesn't get that message in the data.

Please keep giving us wins and C-Bills. Oh, just paraphrasing it.

PGI will also notice if there are no IS pilot playing either. I'm with the OP on this one. CW is a major let down. 30-60 minutes spending 1/2 of that waiting, 1/4 trying to open the gates (usually sacrificing 1-2 mechs each to do it), then finally getting down to being pushed back to the drop ship. Sorry but that's not anyone's idea of fun.

Clan pilots get C-Bills, IS pilots get a screen telling us we get jack squat for the last hour of our life.

[Priest4357]

Girth Fillmore, on 30 December 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

If you don't want to play CW, stop playing it. Don't try to rally others to your silly cause.

As mentioned in a previous post, they're continuously collecting metrics to see how the battles are playing out. If it's determined that clans are winning an overwhelming majority of the encounters, you know they'll do something like change the drop deck variables down the road.

Do you actually think that if we stopped playing CW they'd be able to make educated decisions on what needs to be tweaked? They sure won't be relying on whiny forum posts for feedback, I can tell you that much.

Actually boycotting will show up in the metrics. The number of IS pilots drop so low that clan pilots only have themselves to play against. You think that WON'T show up?

He's right to rally others to the cause. That's how things get done. The game is broken, we all know it. Clan pilots know it too. Hence why the majority of people crying about us not boycotting are clan pilots.

We vote with our time and money to make a difference. I trust in saying that after 2 weeks of playing this version of CW, that I have seen enough to know not playing will be a lot more fun. Spending an hour at a shot just to get our asses kicked? Where the hell is the fun in that.

And yes, I've heard it a thousand times, join a group, suddenly the hour+ of time will be more fun when you get your butt handed to you. Well that makes it all better! We can lament how we just wasted an entire night so we could let the clan pilots make tons of C-Bills off us, and listen to you give us hell in chat about how we suck so bad. WOOHOOO Let's go do that!

Have fun driving it into the ground.

[pwnface]

As an Inner Sphere pilot who hasn't had any trouble beating clans, please stop being crybabies. Learn how to play good builds for IS mechs and use teamwork.

[Khobai]

I personally think the CERML is responsible for a lot of the imbalance. You see every clan mech using them and for good reason.

Its 7 damage for 1 friggin ton. No other weapon in the game comes close to giving you that kindve damage vs tonnage conversion.

I would like to see CERML reduced from 7 damage and 6 heat to 6 damage and 5 heat.

[Yokaiko]

Donas, on 31 December 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

That was the point I tried to make. if all you do is drop into defend, you are effectively putting every pug in your defend que up against a communicating 12-man, especially at crunch time. And thats not fun.

This goes back to the early days. If you don't like getting stomped join a unit or at least get on one of the public TS servers.

Its not unfair
The units aren't some special club (hell I came back to no less than 4 unit invites)

Herding 12 pugs is like herding cats, and even after there is a agreed plan you will have the guys that can't help but stand in a door, or have to sit there taking fire while waiting of the assaults, the guys that refuse to shoot legs.

[Mystere]

Anuerysm, on 01 January 2015 - 12:40 PM, said:

Actually boycotting will show up in the metrics. The number of IS pilots drop so low that clan pilots only have themselves to play against. You think that WON'T show up?

He's right to rally others to the cause. That's how things get done. The game is broken, we all know it. Clan pilots know it too. Hence why the majority of people crying about us not boycotting are clan pilots.

We vote with our time and money to make a difference. I trust in saying that after 2 weeks of playing this version of CW, that I have seen enough to know not playing will be a lot more fun. Spending an hour at a shot just to get our asses kicked? Where the hell is the fun in that.

And yes, I've heard it a thousand times, join a group, suddenly the hour+ of time will be more fun when you get your butt handed to you. Well that makes it all better! We can lament how we just wasted an entire night so we could let the clan pilots make tons of C-Bills off us, and listen to you give us hell in chat about how we suck so bad. WOOHOOO Let's go do that!

Have fun driving it into the ground.

You don't test something by not using it. But of course if your intent is sabotage ...