1123 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Allen Ward, on 02 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

...
Try to play as IS counter attacker on Boreal against a Clan team. Just pop-tart the gate once. You will see 4-6 PPC bolts flying at you immediately.
...

is it that bad? .... Imagine how 24 PPCs feel when going against IS.

Allen Ward, on 02 January 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

...
Edit: And actually I found the 3 ERPPC Bolt weak in Pulic games. Many maps are way too hot even for the 9S to use 3 ERPPCs. You see much more close quarter brawls here, than in CW. The 3 ERPPC Bolt actually sucks in public PUG games. It is purely a CW meta build.

That's because you can't bring 10 TDR-9S into the field in PUG matches... even so, with just a single PPC vomiting 9S you can actually turn the tide in a loosing battle.

Allen Ward, on 02 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

No, your TW will field 4 ERLLs and LRMs to hit back perfectly well. And CERPPCs are far from being complete garbage. Just because a single weapon is not the Hammer of God doesn't mean you cant use it effectively.
...

ERLLs? you mean that tickling blue beam that stays on forever and doesn't do any real damage?
So hammer of god is ok on one of the highest mounted hardpoints available in this game?... 3 of them in fact?



Anyway, some of the quirks (like tdr-9s) show how far away the people who tweak the numbers are from the actual gameplay.

Edited by Navid A1, 03 January 2015 - 12:10 AM.

[Allen Ward]

Serpieri, on 02 January 2015 - 11:47 PM, said:

And on top of that - ghost heat - so the question is why is PGI limiting heat dissipation quirks - and trying to make mechs like the Thunderbolt superior to the stock mechs that were designed to use 2-4ppcs? I'm sure PGI will give the Warhawk missile quriks - cause we all fondly remember it as a missile platform in all the books, tabletop games etc...

Oh Well, time for some more Band-Aid's PGI.

Maybe because good games are not only math driven. If you balance out every aspect of a game you end up with a boring stalemate. Consider the 9S a lucky coincidence for the IS. It only works on cold long range maps with a lot of camping. How many maps in MWO support this? I have a problem with the way PGI is using quirks to increase playtime for certain mechs (and through that upsales). Many IS mechs that have seen a big quirk buff were mediocre to crappy mechs before. I see a monetary reason behind many quirks, which is bad as this affects playstyle and game development. Yes, I bought the Cooldown Module for my twin AC5 Dragon, to get even shorter cooldown, now I have a 2xAC/5 machine gun.

[Roland]

You kind of lost all your credibility on balance issues back when you said you thought the mad cat was balanced and not at all overpowered back when the clans were originally introduced.

It just kind of indicated some fundamental bias that taints your perspective.

[MechaBattler]

Gyrok, on 02 January 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:

Not against top teams...

You see 3x 9S tbolts and 1 BJ with AC20.

The occasional KGC and DRG are mixed in with the occasional wolverine or 4-6 LL Stalkers.

However, in the top end, the variance is virtually none.

9S needs dialed back. I would be ok if they just took the heat reduction off...leave the rest the same...

How's that any different from Clans taking 3xStormcrow+Timberwolf? Taking the best we have!

[pwnface]

Gyrok, on 02 January 2015 - 11:56 PM, said:

Not with speed buffs...

Under 600m you get hit...no dodging, at about 800m you get hit...mostly.

At about 1000m you start to have enough reaction time to actually dodge a shot if you are rocking while firing and they mistime it.

The discussion was about sniping, which means 700m+ imo. ERLL hits every time, ERPPC do not regardless of aim.

[Allen Ward]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2015 - 12:03 AM, said:

is it that bad? .... Imagine how 24 PPCs feel when going against IS.



That's because you can't bring 10 TDR-9S into the field in PUG matches... even so, with just a single PPC vomiting 9S you can actually turn the tide in a loosing battle.


Anyway, some of the quirks (like tdr-9s) show how far away the people who tweak the numbers are from the actual gameplay.

I said 4-6 PPC bolts flying at you alone. The same is true for the rest of the IS team peaking the gate. I don't say it's bad, it's just the way it is on Boreal. I don't think it's great, but what counter-attacker tactic would you endorse when facing a massive wall of TW+SC? What can you do until the gates are down. LRMs? Against constantly ECM covered clan mechs? Lasers that won't even reach them?

[Ultimax]

Roland, on 03 January 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

You kind of lost all your credibility on balance issues back when you said you thought the mad cat was balanced and not at all overpowered back when the clans were originally introduced.

It just kind of indicated some fundamental bias that taints your perspective.

Wait for it...

Gyrok, on 02 January 2015 - 11:50 PM, said:

As the most OP mech in the game it stops EVERYTHING. IS or Clans.

That's right, he has crowned the 9S "the most OP mech in the game".





These forums, I swear.

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 03 January 2015 - 12:05 AM, said:

You kind of lost all your credibility on balance issues back when you said you thought the mad cat was balanced and not at all overpowered back when the clans were originally introduced.

It just kind of indicated some fundamental bias that taints your perspective.

For 10 vs 12 it was fine...if you note, I was also a HUGE advocate of PGI keeping their word on that promise too...

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Wait for it...






That's right, he has crowned the 9S "the most OP mech in the game".





These forums, I swear.

Clans cannot do 30 damage pinpoint FLD for 30 heat, with any weapon system, on a mech less than 85 Tons, and even then, on the 85 ton mech, that is all you bring. You have to bring a DW to duplicate it, and you are still ammo bound.

Edited by Gyrok, 03 January 2015 - 12:15 AM.

[Roland]

Nah man, you argued that the mech as it existed, in 12v12, was totally balanced. You posted up hilariously bad is mech builds that you claimed were comparable (including trash like lbx mechs). You, of course, did not believe anything you were saying, because literally everyone playing the game could easily see that the mad cat was clearly head and shoulders above every other mech in the game.

But your inability to present an honest perspective, even when faced with something as glaringly obvious as the mad cat's superiority on the field, pretty much trashed your credibility regarding balance issues forever.

[Navid A1]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 12:10 AM, said:

Wait for it...






That's right, he has crowned the 9S "the most OP mech in the game".





These forums, I swear.

um...
Is there another reason why we are seeing TDR and TDR only in CW?

I think you are missing the concept of overpowered with actual... well... power!

TDR may bot be the most OP (if such a thing even exist) but it certainly is OP at the moment.


If there is one "most" OP (read broken) mech, its the firestarters. those things soak damage a stalker cannot even dream! (have you wondered why good units run them while feathering the JJ... because that way you cant touch them, no matter the amount of gauss or AC20 you use)

Edited by Navid A1, 03 January 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:14 AM, said:

Clans cannot do 30 damage pinpoint FLD for 30 heat, with any weapon system, on a mech less than 85 Tons, and even then, on the 85 ton mech, that is all you bring. You have to bring a DW to duplicate it.

And IS mechs can't usually mount upwards of 24 to 30 DHS.

Nor can they survive ST destruction with XL engines.



You can bring 2x CERPPCs on a clan mech, and do well.

You get less pinpoint, but it also weighs SEVEN LESS TONS.


How many IS mechs can replicate 500m 50+ damage laser vomit alphas?

Or taking 4x ASRM 6s for 10 tons?


Clan mechs have a lot of advantages that can't be replicated by IS mechs, IS mechs have gotten quirks to give them a leg to stand on instead of PGI nerfing the hell out of clan mechs even further than what they got.

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:09 AM, said:

I said 4-6 PPC bolts flying at you alone. The same is true for the rest of the IS team peaking the gate. I don't say it's bad, it's just the way it is on Boreal. I don't think it's great, but what counter-attacker tactic would you endorse when facing a massive wall of TW+SC? What can you do until the gates are down. LRMs? Against constantly ECM covered clan mechs? Lasers that won't even reach them?

IS have plenty of long range options, please figure it out it isn't that hard.

It sounds like you have a problem with focus fire more than specific weapons.

The good clan builds largely boat lasers not PPCs. The fact that you are complaining about cERPPCs being boated is laughable.

[Roland]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

um...
Is there another reason why we are seeing TDR and TDR only in CW?

Cause they can't drop Timberwolves on the IS side?

[Ultimax]

Navid A1, on 03 January 2015 - 12:19 AM, said:

um...
Is there another reason why we are seeing TDR and TDR only in CW?

Really, you never see Firestarters or King Crabs? Do I need to post the videos by units like 228th bringing those mechs? (Or pretty much everyone else, as Fire Starters are a go to mech).

Do I need to post the amazing variety of Stormcrow, Hell Bringer & Timber Wolf drop decks and turn the question back on you for why we see endless fields of those mechs and things like 5x Streak 6 Storm Crows?


I have mechs of both sides (notice the Masakari badge next to my avatar?).

I promise you do not want to play the analysis game with me.


Just like the mechs I mentioned, TDRs fall into a comfortable range within a 240T deck - which is right in the 55 to 65 ton range.

If drop deck tonnage was unrestricted, I'm pretty certain we'd see many more assault mechs.


Surely, there are clear reasons why we don't Summoners or Novas however.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 January 2015 - 12:27 AM.

[Allen Ward]

Gyrok, on 02 January 2015 - 11:59 PM, said:

No...I could care less about PPCs, I used to use them a LOT! I like the weapon system, but they should not be able to be fired continually...HEAT reduction quirks need to go...leave the rest of it on there...



LRMs < cover.

Sorry...

Let me break this down since you do not grasp it.

ERPPC 9S peaks, fires, back to cover.

CERLL mech fires 2 then 2 and requires 2 seconds to hit full burn for 44 damage.

So you take 30 damage PINPOINT, while the enemy mech takes 1/3 of the damage from 2 CERLL.

That means you are trading at a rate of 30 to 4.

In case you are terribad at math, 30 is MUCH higher than 4.

Thank you for the nice reply.

LRM > cover. There is not much cover on Boreal while trying to bring down the gate generators. It takes less than half a second to lock up and fire away your LRM loads when I peak the gate with my Tbolt. I get instantly locked every time i shoot at you. It's not a single mech that will make use of this lock, I get LRMs from at least 2-3 clan mechs which means something between 20-90 missiles. As soon as I attack any of the defender mechs I become a target for your missile boats, and be honest every clan mech used in CW is a missile boat now. An IS mech has to give up almost all brawling capacity or alternative weapons, where many clan mechs bring massive LRMs as sidearms anyway. And they have enough ECM at hand to deny us from sending LRMs in return. You want to be the one who tags a clan team for his comrades? Deadboy.

Firing all 3 ERPPcs in the TBolt is not very smart, even on Boreal. It can't be done more than twice unless you don't care for your mech and your team at all. Still, firing 3 ERPPCs chain fire makes a great suppression weapon. It's the only way I see that makes a massive TW cluster move after all. Otherwise they simply stand their ground.

All this fighting about a single weapon, build or a decimal point in a game stat is useless. CW is in beta and it is flawed. Every system can be abused. Playing 12 Twin-Gauss King Crabs as defender? LURM Warrior? PGI should deliver game modes and objectives that punish such radical designs and playstyles (=not reward them, but reward teamplay, tactics, new ideas). But MWO is all about quick-kill. So why complain when people use the tools at hand to achieve that goal?

Out of 15 Tier 1 competitive mechs IS has 4, 2 of them being Firestarters in the Lights category...the Griffin 3M being a short range brawler which only helps little on Boreal. What builds should we use?

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

And IS mechs can't usually mount upwards of 24 to 30 DHS.

Nor can they survive ST destruction with XL engines.



You can bring 2x CERPPCs on a clan mech, and do well.

You get less pinpoint, but it also weighs SEVEN LESS TONS.


How many IS mechs can replicate 500m 50+ damage laser vomit alphas?

Or taking 4x ASRM 6s for 10 tons?


Clan mechs have a lot of advantages that can't be replicated by IS mechs, IS mechs have gotten quirks to give them a leg to stand on instead of PGI nerfing the hell out of clan mechs even further than what they got.

Those pros are all negated by several things:
1.) IS has PP FLD in truck loads. IS can hit a single component for 20-40 damage for negligible heat with ACs and all with a 50T mech or more up close...so why bring ASRM24 which will spread damage over 3 components to fight up close at a disadvantage?

2.) IS has ridiculously short beam duration lasers. Compared to clans, they are virtually PP. Consider this: the CMPL has a burn time of 0.85 (YES, a PULSE laser), meanwhile, the IS MPL has a burn time (without quirks) of 0.60. Lets us compare the most egregious offender too...the CLPL has a burn time of 1.12, meanwhile the IS LPL has a burn time of 0.67.

3.) IS LRMs fire clustered, making them MUCH better for penetrating AMS than Clan LRMs.

4.) IS can add endo/ferro to a mech to add additional tonnage to carry more weapons. Clans cannot.

So, clans are disadvantaged fighting up close because PP FLD ACs allow lower heat (lower damage) alphas to strike a single component continually and return to cover to take less damage in a trade.

Then, Clans are NOW disadvantaged at long range where IS can do the same, meanwhile, Clans must stand out for 1.5-2.0 seconds to trade damage at the same range.

You surely are not insinuating that PP FLD is entirely ok when buffed to nearly AC20 heat levels with AC2 velocity, greater range than both, and AC10 damage...all without requiring ammo, and being able to run a STD engine.

Show me the weakness of this mech...as I see it, there is not one to be had. All your conjecture fails on this mech.

Edited by Gyrok, 03 January 2015 - 12:45 AM.

[Navid A1]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

...
Do I need to post the amazing variety of Stormcrow, Hell Bringer & Timber Wolf drop decks and turn the question back on you for why we see endless fields of those mechs and things like 5x Streak 6 Storm Crows?
...

well... why do you think 3xSCR+TBR is used by the clans?... because they are also OP by clan standards.
You were making fun of someone crowning the TDR as most OP. I'm telling you that he was not quite far from target.
remember, overpowered means surpassing the intended role... TDRs are super-awesomes right now at 15 tons lesser weight.

Regarding the firestarters, refer to my edit in above post.

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 12:23 AM, said:

I promise you do not want to play the analysis game with me.

its my everyday routine.... against university professors.

[Gyrok]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Thank you for the nice reply.

LRM > cover. There is not much cover on Boreal while trying to bring down the gate generators. It takes less than half a second to lock up and fire away your LRM loads when I peak the gate with my Tbolt. I get instantly locked every time i shoot at you. It's not a single mech that will make use of this lock, I get LRMs from at least 2-3 clan mechs which means something between 20-90 missiles. As soon as I attack any of the defender mechs I become a target for your missile boats, and be honest every clan mech used in CW is a missile boat now. An IS mech has to give up almost all brawling capacity or alternative weapons, where many clan mechs bring massive LRMs as sidearms anyway. And they have enough ECM at hand to deny us from sending LRMs in return. You want to be the one who tags a clan team for his comrades? Deadboy.

Firing all 3 ERPPcs in the TBolt is not very smart, even on Boreal. It can't be done more than twice unless you don't care for your mech and your team at all. Still, firing 3 ERPPCs chain fire makes a great suppression weapon. It's the only way I see that makes a massive TW cluster move after all. Otherwise they simply stand their ground.

All this fighting about a single weapon, build or a decimal point in a game stat is useless. CW is in beta and it is flawed. Every system can be abused. Playing 12 Twin-Gauss King Crabs as defender? LURM Warrior? PGI should deliver game modes and objectives that punish such radical designs and playstyles (=not reward them, but reward teamplay, tactics, new ideas). But MWO is all about quick-kill. So why complain when people use the tools at hand to achieve that goal?

Out of 15 Tier 1 competitive mechs IS has 4, 2 of them being Firestarters in the Lights category...the Griffin 3M being a short range brawler which only helps little on Boreal. What builds should we use?

1.) You use a macro to fire 2 + 1, or chain fire them if you want to suppress...but you do not trade by chain firing.

2.) What tier 1 comp mech list are you referencing? The 9S is surely a T1 build, the 5SS happens to be one too...the 1N may not be...but it is certainly tier 2 edging tier 1.

3.) LRMs < cover. On boreal it is EASY to use cover, you are clearly not well versed in the art. Especially if there is ECM/radar dep. Break LOS, no more LRMs. There is enough vertical cover to do that.

4.) While I agree about your sentiment...I have only EVER encountered large numbers of 9S mechs in CW drops, and many in PUG drops as well. You see those more than any other heavy. Obviously so...it is CLEARLY head and shoulders above the others...

[Allen Ward]

pwnface, on 03 January 2015 - 12:20 AM, said:

IS have plenty of long range options, please figure it out it isn't that hard.

It sounds like you have a problem with focus fire more than specific weapons.

The good clan builds largely boat lasers not PPCs. The fact that you are complaining about cERPPCs being boated is laughable.

How can a single player have a problem with focus fire? Focus fire is an issue for the whole team, where usually everyone shoots at a different target (in solo drops). But that has nothing to do with the weapons being used.

I am not complaining about Clan ERPPC boats, besides the 4ppc warhawk In have never seen any. And even that whale is not a real problem, you can easily evade him or make him shutdown.

ERLL are great and used in meta builds more often than ppcs. But they do have their downsides. In the 9S I would never use 3 ERLL instead of 3 ERPPC. When it comes to laser boating, the clan mechs are superior. Reach and damage output.

[gcmdr chris]

well specifically, i have brawled timber wolves in my tdr 9s, and have won. 30ppfld with very little heat is op. simply put. and the argument of ghost heat is a false argument since you can just fire them off 2x1 1x1 instead of 3x1. ALSO, with the speed buff pertaining to community warfare specifically, you can get within range of the gate to where your ********** of doom will hit almost instantaneously. im all for fixing the TBR's JJ animation. but at the same time there needs to be fixes to the issues this game has right now.


ALSO, the holy trinity. why do you guys face only hbr tbr and storm crows?
why no light mechs? what else do the clans have beyond those? a summoner(beyond poor choice) a nova? (terrible mech) mist lynx?(i use it as a filler) adder?(fail ppc boat, not heavy enough to field respectable firepower for a light) ice ferret?(poor medium fielding little in terms of weapons and armor) direwolf is too slow and heavy for cw. warhawk suffers from fail clan erpp's and heat. gargoyle was DOA. which leaves the clans what? nerfing the holy trinity leaves the clans with nothing to combat any is mech in a fair trade.

TL:DR nerf the 9s since it just poops on the "best clan mech" at all ranges. wait on nerfs to the holy trinity until the clans have a respect-able set of chassis to gauge how op the trinity really is.