1123 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Most people agree TDRs can compete near TBR level at 10 tons less.

While it's imo not as good as a TBR all things considered, it's nasty in it's niches. Most people consider the TBR the best all round mech in the game. We don't even need to discuss the TDRs power at this point if it's always compared to the TBR.

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Out of 15 Tier 1 competitive mechs IS has 4, 2 of them being Firestarters in the Lights category...the Griffin 3M being a short range brawler which only helps little on Boreal. What builds should we use?

I would also love to know what 15 tier 1 mechs you are talking about. Surely you aren't blindly following Gmans metamechs website which is based on one person's opinion and is prone to overlook excellent builds.

[gcmdr chris]

lets not even take into account how the erppc on the tdr does same damage as the clan one(yes for 1 more ton) but now has 1/2 the heat? is extremely fast, and can be boated? the meta at least for vomit is multiple weapon systems of a type. laser. the erppc spam is literally one weapon, with little heat, hard to avoid on boreal, and has no disadvantages to using it. the laser vomit also is not 50ppfld. its a face-time weapon that can have its damage negated with little effort, or just decent positioning.

[Ghogiel]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Out of 15 Tier 1 competitive mechs IS has 4, 2 of them being Firestarters in the Lights category...the Griffin 3M being a short range brawler which only helps little on Boreal. What builds should we use?

That would leave 11 T1 mechs on that list belonging to the clans. ATM clans only have 12 mechs in the game. so... no?

[Allen Ward]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:43 AM, said:

1.) You use a macro to fire 2 + 1, or chain fire them if you want to suppress...but you do not trade by chain firing.

2.) What tier 1 comp mech list are you referencing? The 9S is surely a T1 build, the 5SS happens to be one too...the 1N may not be...but it is certainly tier 2 edging tier 1.

3.) LRMs < cover. On boreal it is EASY to use cover, you are clearly not well versed in the art. Especially if there is ECM/radar dep. Break LOS, no more LRMs. There is enough vertical cover to do that.

4.) While I agree about your sentiment...I have only EVER encountered large numbers of 9S mechs in CW drops, and many in PUG drops as well. You see those more than any other heavy. Obviously so...it is CLEARLY head and shoulders above the others...

1) Hm, I consider trading being lame and using macros cheating.

2) metamechs.com, not the Holy Bible but as good as a reference as any. Yes, these lists change on the whimse of a handful of people...

3) Maybe true. I tend to get hit by pretty many LRMs, maybe I don't see the Stormcrow or Kitfox sitting high on that hill spotting me, regardless of where I go. and no, I don't spend millions of C-Bills on every mech to get that stupid Radar dep module that was only introduced to make a bad LRM system even worse.

4) I agree that people now learned that the 9S build exists. And now they flock to it and field large numbers. That happened when ECM was introduced, it happened when the Timber Wolf was released, it will go away. It is annoying for awhile but I doubt it will be around forever. Something has to be done about the clan mechs available though. I get bored by attacking the same team build every game and every single wave. You kill some Timber Wolfs and they fly in new ones, you kill some Storm Crows and they still have plenty of them. That is pretty much the same as seeing 10 PPC-Bolts running towards you, but if you killed them it is very unlikely that they will bring on 10 more. Clans have like 4 different Mechs you encounter in great numbers...please PGI bring in more Clan Mechs.

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

How can a single player have a problem with focus fire? Focus fire is an issue for the whole team, where usually everyone shoots at a different target (in solo drops). But that has nothing to do with the weapons being used.

When you mentioned earlier 4-6 PPC bolts being flung at your single mech, it means there are multiple mechs firing at just you. As stated already, this has nothing to do with the weapons systems and with focus fire. 6-12 ERLL would be even more difficult to deal with.

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

ERLL are great and used in meta builds more often than ppcs. But they do have their downsides. In the 9S I would never use 3 ERLL instead of 3 ERPPC. When it comes to laser boating, the clan mechs are superior. Reach and damage output.

Why limit yourself to the 9S? There are several other chassis that can work IS ERLL very well.

As for long range laser boating, I don't think the clans really have an advantage if you know the right builds to use. Within C-ERML range, certainly the clans have a big advantage, but on Boreal at 700m+ the C-ERML are pretty lackluster.

[gcmdr chris]

and lets just say the tbr,dac,and storm crow are tier one because the other fail to even place on the list.

[Gyrok]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:44 AM, said:

How can a single player have a problem with focus fire? Focus fire is an issue for the whole team, where usually everyone shoots at a different target (in solo drops). But that has nothing to do with the weapons being used.

I am not complaining about Clan ERPPC boats, besides the 4ppc warhawk In have never seen any. And even that whale is not a real problem, you can easily evade him or make him shutdown.

ERLL are great and used in meta builds more often than ppcs. But they do have their downsides. In the 9S I would never use 3 ERLL instead of 3 ERPPC. When it comes to laser boating, the clan mechs are superior. Reach and damage output.

Clans have more reach and damage for SIGNIFICANTLY more HEAT.

Compare LPLs:

IS LPL: 11 damage for 7 heat
CLPL: 13 damage for 10 heat

You are gaining 2 damage for 3 heat...want to bet which one is FAR more heat efficient?

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

1) Hm, I consider trading being lame and using macros cheating.

Do you even know what trading is? Trading shots with the enemy = trading. If the enemy is shooting at you and you are shooting back that is trading.

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

2) metamechs.com, not the Holy Bible but as good as a reference as any. Yes, these lists change on the whimse of a handful of people...

Really? You shouldn't hold one persons opinion with so much weight. If you don't have a good understanding of the game it is a pretty good reference point, but a lot of competitive players don't agree with Gmans opinions 100%.

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

3) Maybe true. I tend to get hit by pretty many LRMs, maybe I don't see the Stormcrow or Kitfox sitting high on that hill spotting me, regardless of where I go. and no, I don't spend millions of C-Bills on every mech to get that stupid Radar dep module that was only introduced to make a bad LRM system even worse.

Both sides can use ECM. LRMs are largely terrible against organized teams that know how to employ ECM/AMS. The fact that you are having problems with LRMs leads me to believe you are either a solo pug player or need to communicate with your unit to bring some ECM coverage.

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:57 AM, said:

4) I agree that people now learned that the 9S build exists. And now they flock to it and field large numbers. That happened when ECM was introduced, it happened when the Timber Wolf was released, it will go away. It is annoying for awhile but I doubt it will be around forever. Something has to be done about the clan mechs available though. I get bored by attacking the same team build every game and every single wave. You kill some Timber Wolfs and they fly in new ones, you kill some Storm Crows and they still have plenty of them. That is pretty much the same as seeing 10 PPC-Bolts running towards you, but if you killed them it is very unlikely that they will bring on 10 more. Clans have like 4 different Mechs you encounter in great numbers...please PGI bring in more Clan Mechs.

The TDR-9S is the most obvious Inner Sphere sniper build and works very well. This is the reason why a ton of players are using it. There is a better IS energy based sniper build, it's just that 95% of the player base have overlooked it because they are lemming that copy flavor of the month builds.

[Ghogiel]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:58 AM, said:

Clans have more reach and damage for SIGNIFICANTLY more HEAT.

Compare LPLs:

IS LPL: 11 damage for 7 heat
CLPL: 13 damage for 10 heat

You are gaining 2 damage for 3 heat...want to bet which one is FAR more heat efficient?

The CLPL is all about the 600m range

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 12:37 AM, said:

Thank you for the nice reply.

LRM &gt; cover. There is not much cover on Boreal while trying to bring down the gate generators. It takes less than half a second to lock up and fire away your LRM loads when I peak the gate with my Tbolt. I get instantly locked every time i shoot at you. It's not a single mech that will make use of this lock, I get LRMs from at least 2-3 clan mechs which means something between 20-90 missiles. As soon as I attack any of the defender mechs I become a target for your missile boats, and be honest every clan mech used in CW is a missile boat now. An IS mech has to give up almost all brawling capacity or alternative weapons, where many clan mechs bring massive LRMs as sidearms anyway. And they have enough ECM at hand to deny us from sending LRMs in return. You want to be the one who tags a clan team for his comrades? Deadboy.

I think to solve this problem you want to learn the map better. There positions to attack the gens that aren't up close.

[Roland]

Clan mechs also, by virtue of the clan tech, are better able to Carey the heat dissipation to use energy heavy loadouts... Generally, through the fact that clan tech takes fewer critical slots, and weighs less, making room for more heat sinks.

[Ultimax]

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

Those pros are all negated by several things:

They are only negated in your mind, because you either pretend not to notice or have constructed a wall in your mind preventing you from seeing the benefits to most of the points you are about to make.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

1.) IS has PP FLD in truck loads. IS can hit a single component for 20-40 damage for negligible heat with ACs and all with a 50T mech or more up close...so why bring ASRM24 which will spread damage over 3 components to fight up close at a disadvantage?

Yes, the IS has more PP FLD weapons overall, lucky clan have access to the best one (Gauss).

Building any of those mechs requires you to either be more fragile than a clan mech (IS XL) or much, much slower (STD engine) - these are called trade offs.

If you want to pretend that ASRM 24 is somehow a weak option, you go ahead and be my guest.

It's a laughably silly premise that deserves nothing but ridicule, and I won't even dignify it with a proper response.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

2.) IS has ridiculously short beam duration lasers. Compared to clans, they are virtually PP. Consider this: the CMPL has a burn time of 0.85 (YES, a PULSE laser), meanwhile, the IS MPL has a burn time (without quirks) of 0.60.

Wow, a whole 0.25s different?

You seem to have forgotten to mention that 5x Clan MPLs roughly equals the damage of 7x IS MPLs.

On top of that FOUR TONS weight savings, the Clan MPLs also have an extra 50% range.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

Lets us compare the most egregious offender too...the CLPL has a burn time of 1.12, meanwhile the IS LPL has a burn time of 0.67.

The Clan Large Pulse laser is one of the best energy weapons in the game. It has excellent heat efficiency.

You can fire 2 of them for the roughly the same damage but at less heat than THREE IS Large lasers for a total of 3 tons weight saved while also having better range.

For that, you pay a small extended beam time of 0.12s.

0.12


You really want to compare the IS LPL at 7 tons with 365m range vs. the Clan LPL at 6 Tons with 600m range?

Yes, you pay for the weight savings and extra range with a longer beam time. It's still one of the best energy weapons available to the Clans.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

3.) IS LRMs fire clustered, making them MUCH better for penetrating AMS than Clan LRMs.

Yes, and Clan LRMs weigh half as much. These are called trade offs.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

4.) IS can add endo/ferro to a mech to add additional tonnage to carry more weapons. Clans cannot.

I actually agree this should be changed, but this is so far off the rails about the Thunderbolt that you are officially in left field.

Gyrok, on 03 January 2015 - 12:38 AM, said:

So, clans are disadvantaged fighting up close because PP FLD ACs allow lower heat (lower damage) alphas to strike a single component continually and return to cover to take less damage in a trade.

Then, Clans are NOW disadvantaged at long range where IS can do the same, meanwhile, Clans must stand out for 1.5-2.0 seconds to trade damage at the same range.

You surely are not insinuating that PP FLD is entirely ok when buffed to nearly AC20 heat levels with AC2 velocity, greater range than both, and AC10 damage...all without requiring ammo, and being able to run a STD engine.

Show me the weakness of this mech...as I see it, there is not one to be had. All your conjecture fails on this mech.

No one who is capable of rational thought could possibly take these statements statements seriously.


I'm sorry you think playing the victim card and claiming something ludicrous like "clans are disadvantaged at long range" will actually have an effect on people.



The Thunderbolt is a very good mech now, calling it the most OP mech in the game that doesn't have any weaknesses is the worst kind of hyperbole.


It's wide mech with awful Geometry, 2 variants have basically ONE specialized niche that they are very good at.

They are easy to shoot, and tend to cap out at 80kph due to needing a STD engine to not be a walking death trap, but the 9S ER PPC build typically goes even slower (260 to 280 STD) so it can fit 16 to 18 DHS.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 03 January 2015 - 01:09 AM.

[Allen Ward]

I don't know all the possible meta builds available and I doubt anyone does. Is there any real reference to meta builds based on solid numbers? I guess not. Anyone can claim a certain build to be Tier X, just because he/he plays well with it. I just wanted to show that there is a large amount of very effective clan builds and a limited number of equally strong IS builds. And yes, there are more builds available than clan mech models in the game.

Any other meta build ressources I should check out? I don't have the time or will to read myself through endless forum discussions about certain builds, though. Therefore I think Gmans lists are one of the best that can be used by every player immediately. The decisions and changes in that list can be discussed, if excellent builds are missing, add them.

[Allen Ward]

pwnface, on 03 January 2015 - 01:04 AM, said:

Do you even know what trading is? Trading shots with the enemy = trading. If the enemy is shooting at you and you are shooting back that is trading. Really? You shouldn't hold one persons opinion with so much weight. If you don't have a good understanding of the game it is a pretty good reference point, but a lot of competitive players don't agree with Gmans opinions 100%. Both sides can use ECM. LRMs are largely terrible against organized teams that know how to employ ECM/AMS. The fact that you are having problems with LRMs leads me to believe you are either a solo pug player or need to communicate with your unit to bring some ECM coverage. The TDR-9S is the most obvious Inner Sphere sniper build and works very well. This is the reason why a ton of players are using it. There is a better IS energy based sniper build, it's just that 95% of the player base have overlooked it because they are lemming that copy flavor of the month builds.

By trading shots I meant the situation where both sides stand still and trade shots over great distance. Kind of camping shootout.

Yes I drop solo or mini-team in CW (or used to, until I stopped playing CW to no longer annoy all you pros). Just because our unit is still small and growing slowly. The game is not very friendly to small units that cannot bring 12 man groups every match.

I know that Gmans lists are based on the opinion of a few people only and I never said I agree 100% with his lists. But still I have to find another list that is so well managed and available so that random players who dont have the time to read 6 forums and play this game like LoL can have some fun. I consider PUG not a game mode but a better testing ground.

The gap between PUG and CW is too radical in my opinion.

[MarineTech]

Still going

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 01:08 AM, said:

I don't know all the possible meta builds available and I doubt anyone does. Is there any real reference to meta builds based on solid numbers? I guess not. Anyone can claim a certain build to be Tier X, just because he/he plays well with it. I just wanted to show that there is a large amount of very effective clan builds and a limited number of equally strong IS builds. And yes, there are more builds available than clan mech models in the game.

Any other meta build ressources I should check out? I don't have the time or will to read myself through endless forum discussions about certain builds, though. Therefore I think Gmans lists are one of the best that can be used by every player immediately. The decisions and changes in that list can be discussed, if excellent builds are missing, add them.

Personally, I agree with maybe 60% of Gman's tier list and there are definitely builds that aren't even on his tier list that should be. It is really easy for one person to overlook a few builds as there are just so many chassis and weapon combinations possible.

I've personally seen pilots put out 2500+ damage in a single mech in CW using builds that aren't listed on his tier list at all. I've cracked 3400 damage running only (according to gman) 1 tier 3 mech and NO tier 1 /2 mechs that he's listed. If you want to get good at the game you really need to deep dive analysis of the weapons and builds for yourself rather than just follow what other people say are good.

[Gyrok]

Ultimatum X, on 03 January 2015 - 01:07 AM, said:

They are only negated in your mind, because you either pretend not to notice or have constructed a wall in your mind preventing you from seeing the benefits to most of the points you are about to make.





Yes, the IS has more PP FLD weapons overall, lucky clan have access to the best one (Gauss).

Building any of those mechs requires you to either be more fragile than a clan mech (IS XL) or much, much slower (STD engine) - these are called trade offs.

If you want to pretend that ASRM 24 is somehow a weak option, you go ahead and be my guest.

It's a laughably silly premise that deserves nothing but ridicule, and I won't even dignify it with a proper response.






Wow, a whole 0.25s different?

You seem to have forgotten to mention that 5x Clan MPLs roughly equals the damage of 7x IS MPLs.

On top of that FOUR TONS weight savings, the Clan MPLs also have an extra 50% range.





The Clan Large Pulse laser is one of the best energy weapons in the game. It has excellent heat efficiency.

[b]You can fire 2 of them for the roughly the same damage but at less heat than [b]THREE IS Large lasers for a total of 3 tons weight saved while also having better range.

For that, you pay a small extended beam time of 0.12s.

0.12


You really want to compare the IS LPL at 7 tons with 365m range vs. the Clan LPL at 6 Tons with 600m range?

Yes, you pay for the weight savings and extra range with a longer beam time. It's still one of the best energy weapons available to the Clans.



[b]

Yes, and Clan LRMs weigh half as much. These are called trade offs.




[b]

I actually agree this should be changed, but this is so far off the rails about the Thunderbolt that you are officially in left field.






[b]


No one who is capable of rational thought could possibly take these statements statements seriously.


I'm sorry you think playing the victim card and claiming something ludicrous like "clans are disadvantaged at long range" will actually have an effect on people.



The Thunderbolt is a very good mech now, calling it the most OP mech in the game that doesn't have any weaknesses is the worst kind of hyperbole.


It's wide mech with awful Geometry, 2 variants have basically ONE specialized niche that they are very good at.

They are easy to shoot, and tend to cap out at 80kph due to needing a STD engine to not be a walking death trap, but the 9S ER PPC build typically goes even slower (260 to 280 STD) so it can fit 16 to 18 DHS.

It also has high torso mounted hardpoints meaning it only has to expose a small portion of the mech to fire them.

Look, you and I normally see eye to eye on most of this stuff...so how on earth you missed this one, I am just not sure. However, to counter your above points:

1.) MANY mechs can carry Gauss/AC20 with STD engine.

2.) The 5SS T-Bolt has the IS MPL buffed to the same range as Clans and runs MUCH cooler for MUCH higher DPS.

3.) The CLPL is inferior to the CERLL. In tonnage, range, and equal heat. It is MARGINALLY better due to beam duration, however, why not take a weapon that hits 140m further with a slight damage reduction for the same heat and 2 less tons. CLPL is mostly dead aside from the laser vomit TW, and honestly, if you could fit more DHS by running CERLL you would see those instead on that mech, but you are constrained by space.

4.) The CMPL is about the only above average clan pulse, it is a good weapon. However, not a world beater.

5.) The IS LPL is buffed on several mechs to the point it mostly negates the difference.

We can go round and round....agree to disagree on this one?

[pwnface]

Allen Ward, on 03 January 2015 - 01:18 AM, said:

Yes I drop solo or mini-team in CW (or used to, until I stopped playing CW to no longer annoy all you pros). Just because our unit is still small and growing slowly. The game is not very friendly to small units that cannot bring 12 man groups every match.

I don't mean to sound harsh in my posts and I really do want to help other players improve their CW experience.

If you'd like to get more involved in organized CW drops, house kurita has an excellent public teamspeak @ house-kurita.enjinvoice.com . You can usually find several large groups doing organized drops including Night's Scorn.

I'd like to encourage you to bring your unit members to join us for some drops sometime, hopefully we can help make CW a more enjoyable (and profitable) experience for you guys!

[pwnface]

I'd like to point out that Clans don't really have any 2xGauss options besides the Dire Wolf.

IS can use JM6-S, CTF, CPLT-K2, KGC. Gauss is a great weapon for sniping and has more range than energy weapons. If you bring 8-9tons of ammo usually it will be plenty to last you through the sniper phase of a CW match.