1123 replies to this topic

[Krivvan]

Techorse, on 02 January 2015 - 07:09 AM, said:

With all due respect, no. The primary function of games is to enjoy them, and if you only get enjoyment by playing meta and winning, something's up.

It's the same kind of fun you get trying your hardest to win at a sport. Or trying your hardest to win a chess game. Figuring out the optimal builds, opening moves, the best strategies, understanding the game, overcoming adversities, etc. all are fun to many people.

Different people derive fun from games in different ways. Some find the most fun in being competitive to the point where single player games in general aren't fun because they don't feel like accomplishments (I'm not at that level, but I've heard that sentiment before).

To those people, telling them that it isn't fun to run meta is like telling them that the only way to have fun in chess is by sacrificing their queen before trying to win the game instead of trying to win from the start.

Edited by Krivvan, 02 January 2015 - 07:19 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mister D, on 02 January 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

I don't know how others make it work so well, other than just vomiting only ERPPC with no other weapons in it.

If you try to make a reasonable build (it does have some good regular laser quirks and DUAL AMS) they just don't work.

I decided to wipe the dust off mine that was given out way back from last April-22 as a free mech, and give it a try using a similar build I used back then, and I just got smoked over and over in it.
Replaced the PPC's with ERPPC's.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...bae825a10cc7ea1
or this
http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab#i=155&l=96190ad73c4ff9822364e3f6a807e998b71679f3

Back in the day, 2 regular PPC's with an AC-5 backup made for a considerable threat, now its just a joke.

Far as I can tell, this now operates the same way as the Ilya does with 3 AC-10, just alot hotter with some extended range.

individually, it's pretty much just a nuisance, in most case. When the enemy team drops 12? The PPC spam is far worse than back when the old 4 PPC stalker caused them to implement ghost heat. That should be food for thought.

[Ghogiel]

Techorse, on 02 January 2015 - 07:13 AM, said:

PGI probably intended for the player to take 1 or two ER PPC's and use it effectively as a battle cannon.

Then PGI is incredibly naive or stupid. We've had min/max boating for decades in MW titles.

[Kiiyor]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2015 - 06:01 AM, said:

IMO, the TDR-9S quirks are overdone. ERPPC heat reduction should be 25% max--just like AWS-9M.

If the worst IS Assault mech gets 25% to ERPPC heat reduction, then TDR-9S, which is far from the worst Heavy, should not get 50% heat reduction.

PGI's own balancing rule dictates that firing 3 PPCs at once should be heat prohibitive--PGI broke its own rule with -50% heat quirk.

Not to mention the fact that the one mech BUILT around PPC's does them worse than the Thunderbolt.

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 02 January 2015 - 07:16 AM, said:

It's the same kind of fun you get trying your hardest to win at a sport. Or trying your hardest to win a chess game. Figuring out the optimal builds, opening moves, the best strategies, understanding the game, overcoming adversities, etc. all are fun to many people.

so are you saying that the old 4 PPC Stalker Meta, the old Poptart 3D/Dragonslayer Meta or the new TBolt overlord Meta are actually fun? And good for the health of the game, Kriv?

[Mcgral18]

911 Inside Job, on 02 January 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

Disingenuous for the poor poor clanners to cry because the Inner Sphere has a single weapon with the same range as clan weapons. The ERPPC is the only long range weapon IS have.

Or the Gauss? Or the ERLL? Quirked that ERLL outranges the Clam version.


This one is good because it has, quite literally, half the heat. And it is quite good; the second best state the PPCs have ever been in.

2KM/s travel speed, 8 heat and 3 second cooldown being the greatest. This is an ERPPC with 7.5 heat, but only 1207.5 M/s.


Pretty damned good.

[Shlkt]

Quote

We lost in under 10 minutes because the whole team had Thunderbolt 9S's besides 2 stalkers and a centurion.
The biggest premade group was a 4 while the rest are pugs besides a 2 man group.

You have to brawl a team like that. Even with quirks, a pure ER PPC mech is a poor brawler. SRMs and autocannons can dish out double or triple their damage in a sustained fight. If you let them poke and cool off behind a hill then you're playing to their greatest strength. Either hide in your base and make them push you, or ride out to meet them in a glorious death blob.

[Nazar24]

There was once upon a time,
the time for poptart to fly and shine.

Stalker as far as you can see,
melting down with ppc.

Profanities shouted at a box,
wich prevented you to lock.

Clan invaded an empty world,
topping 1000 in the scoreboard.


Now bolt family shall thrive,
under the fear of the nerfbat strike.

Just one thing will survive
it's called "meta"
but with time it will change
it's just up to you to accept the challenge

Don't fear the meta, Beat the meta.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nightmare1, on 02 January 2015 - 07:00 AM, said:

ROFL

It's hilarious that people complain about the TDRs. For so long, they were a unicorn Mech. Now they're back and the Clanners don't like that.

I guess they don't like us having a Mech that can match theirs.

Anyways, I own all four TDRs and none of mine run ERPPCs. I run dual AC/5s on the 5S and the 9S, and other unique builds on the other two Mechs. Personally, I think it's great to see TDRs making a comeback, but the quirks are not interesting enough to make me run a cookie-cutter build. I'll maintain my individuality, thank you much.

That being said, I don't see very many ERPPC ones outside of CW. All I ever see in the normal Modes are the wubbers (Another cookie-cutter type I don't run).

What it boils down to, is that the Clanners want easy victories. Now they have an adversary that can fight them at range and hurt them, and they're not liking it.

Get over it. Welcome to the Inner Sphere. Hope you don't have plans to stay.

Dude, going from broken bad, to op broken good? It's not remotely good for the balance of the game, in any way shape or form. Ridiculously obvious and broken metas are bad, period.

[GonaDie]

[Bishop Steiner]

El Bandito, on 02 January 2015 - 06:57 AM, said:

That "some range" almost doubles max AC10 range, BTW. Plus the quirked ERPPC has 250 more speed than AC10, with no bullet drop. Also, the 9S ERPPCs are mounted much higher than Ilya's Triple AC10s so less exposure is another plus.



Timberwolf is OP due to broken hitboxes + cheat-jumping as well as benefiting from every advantage the Clan tech affords it. The torsi hitboxes definitely need some rework.

also, no ammo issues. And really no heat issues, overall, on the 9S.

[BourbonFaucet]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

so are you saying that the old 4 PPC Stalker Meta, the old Poptart 3D/Dragonslayer Meta or the new TBolt overlord Meta are actually fun? And good for the health of the game, Kriv?

He's saying that those metas are "natural" because the people who figured them out had so much fun doing so and then stomping people with it. What Kriv doesn't get, however, is that class of people who have fun doing that, ruin everybody's else's fun by their very nature and definition.

Edited by Techorse, 02 January 2015 - 07:24 AM.

[Krivvan]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 07:18 AM, said:

so are you saying that the old 4 PPC Stalker Meta, the old Poptart 3D/Dragonslayer Meta or the new TBolt overlord Meta are actually fun? And good for the health of the game, Kriv?

I actually think the old poptart meta was good and should make a comeback in some form (much better than the current meta at least), but like I said, you derive fun from making and figuring out the meta, but you can then find the meta to be lacking, and it isn't fun to intentionally gimp yourselves arbitrarily since your fun is derived from trying to do and be the best at something. That's how you can run meta while simultaneously not like the meta in a game.

I'm more likely to run dumb builds than others I know, but running arbitrarily bad builds is much less fun than running boring good builds to many people. Many "meta tryhards" were the ones trying to point out the power of the Stormcrow/Timberwolf so that the meta could be more diverse.

[Bishop Steiner]

Techorse, on 02 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

He's saying that those metas are "natural" because the people who figured them out had so much fun doing so and then stomping people with it. What Kriv doesn't get, however, is that class of people who have fun doing that, ruin everybody's else's fun by their very nature and definition.

Not sure that is true, or not, the last part. We will have to let Krivvan tell us. I know some of the upper tier comp guys actually hated having such a clear cut Meta. Metas always exist, and the competitive guys will always drift to them, and the wannabes, and have fun with them.

But when the entire match becomes poptarting, or ppc spamming, all the time? That is only fun for the few who care about their stats, usually, than actually playing the game.

But at the end of the day, it's not even about the fun factor. It's about just how broken the meta is balance wise. Pre quirks 2.0, we had a real good mix and diversity. Now we are back to one chassis, one weapon, all the time.

That's bad for the game no matter how "comp", or "effective" (cutesy compie dig at those not metawhoring. see I can do it too, lol), or whatever.

[Nightmare1]

KuroNyra, on 02 January 2015 - 07:14 AM, said:

So when IS cry about Clans mech it's ok.
But when Clans cry about Meta Mech destroying the game it's not ok?

Timber Wolf is something that all mech should be able to do at certains level.
The Dire Wolf is a Whale and very rare in CW and so much focused on pugs it's hardly a threat now when you face it.
The Stormcrow got a uberreputation most of the time create by guys who don't even use them.

Theses 3 are good yes. But they are also used because all the rest of the Clans mech can't hold there ground against the Meta IS mech. But THAT IS PERFECTLY FINE! Clans Mech are OP and IS are fine! Sur! "Tout va bien madame la marquise, tout va très bien!"

All Clans Mechs should be has useful as the others. Summoner can't do sh!t, the sadder is a filler. Kitfox only have the ECM. Ice Ferret just doesn't worth the tonnage, Nova is a Heavy in disguise for the size with extreme heat danger.
I could continu for each one of them.


On the Other side, now the IS got quricks, most of there mechs can properly fight the Holy Trinity, and of course there is the ones that everybody see on the battlefield. Thunderbollts. But hey, Dirty Clanner cannot talk about the Inner Sphere Timber Wolf, Nonononononono. Clans OP SHHHHH SSSHHHHHHH;

If you notice, I do have the Masakari Pack, so I'm well aware of the shortcomings of the Clan Mechs. I'm just saying that it's funny that Clanners are griefing about an IS Mech.

Get over yourself.

[Krivvan]

Techorse, on 02 January 2015 - 07:23 AM, said:

He's saying that those metas are "natural" because the people who figured them out had so much fun doing so and then stomping people with it. What Kriv doesn't get, however, is that class of people who have fun doing that, ruin everybody's else's fun by their very nature and definition.

It's not the stomping that's fun. The best would be if both teams were running full meta.

Which is why I come back to saying that the problem is more that the game doesn't separate those who just want to "pilot stompy robots" from the more competitive types. Other games do this. Starcraft has people doing awful builds and not caring and those who try their hardest to be the best, but they separate the two players very well. MWO currently does not do this very well (even with elo, games can have quite a high elo spread at times). MWO can't do this effectively without a large population.

And trust me, I do get it to an extent. There are some games that I decide to play tryhard in and other games where I choose not to, so I've experienced both perspectives. If the "metawhores" had a choice, most would choose to play exclusively against other "metawhores."

Edited by Krivvan, 02 January 2015 - 07:31 AM.

[Mergatroid Skittle]

This is ultimately a quirk system conversation. In general, I love the quirk system. My only complaint is that some of the quirks get too focused on specific weapon systems. This is basically the Developers saying "Here is the optimal build. Any other build is subobtimal."

The result is that you see the EXACT same builds ALL the time, like the ERPPC TDR-9s and the SPL FS9-A. In my opinion, this takes away the creativity and variance in builds that make this game more interesting.

I say keep the quirks broad and let the players use weapon modules to "specialize".

Tarogato, on 02 January 2015 - 06:13 AM, said:

If they nerf the TDR-9S, then suddenly Innersphere will be lacking any sort of counter to Clan range on Boreal Vault. We kinda need the 9S to be able to stand a chance at playing their game.

So we build a quirk system so that a specific mech can be effective at a certain map in a specific game mode? That seems odd.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Nightshade24, on 02 January 2015 - 07:11 AM, said:

I was on a clan ghost bear team...
I was deffending on sulfur.

We lost in under 10 minutes because the whole team had Thunderbolt 9S's besides 2 stalkers and a centurion.
The biggest premade group was a 4 while the rest are pugs besides a 2 man group.

How does one simply win a map with a heavy mech with 3 ER PPC's in under 10 minutes by rushing the deffenders with hillhumps nad stuff...

sorry, but since then I quit Clan vs IS combat in CW. each game had more and more and more thunderbolt 9S's which I find are stupid with the quirks. and I am afraid my next game would be a bigger pre made all in thunderbolts.

Who's ever idea was it to make the thunderbolt out class the awesome in ER PPC boating and also to make a single thunderbolt better then a lance of ER PPC warhawks must go rethink his life decisions... he must be the same person who thinks giving the firestarter its' small pulse laser quirks and the locust pirates bane the AC2 quirk it was originally coming out with...


This is a mech meant to have 1 ppc at best, not boat them better then any other mech in game. (meanwhile the Catapult K2, Adder prime, and the warhawk has no PPC quirks AT ALL.) (also better quirks then awesome...).


However I just noticed when I wanted to check up on the thunderbolt somethings odd... it's now a large pulse laser quirk...
perhaps there is a glimmer of hope...

yea Adder,warhawk and K2 having no PPC/ERPPC quirks is stooped...also AWS should have that -50% heatgen on PPC and ERPPC

[Bishop Steiner]

Krivvan, on 02 January 2015 - 07:26 AM, said:

I actually think the old poptart meta was good and should make a comeback in some form (much better than the current meta at least), but like I said, you derive fun from making and figuring out the meta, but you can then find the meta to be lacking, and it isn't fun to intentionally gimp yourselves arbitrarily since your fun is derived from trying to do and be the best at something. That's how you can run meta while simultaneously not like the meta in a game.

I'm more likely to run dumb builds than others I know, but running arbitrarily bad builds is much less fun than running boring good builds to many people. Many "meta tryhards" were the ones trying to point out the power of the Stormcrow/Timberwolf so that the meta could be more diverse.

In many cases, yes, they are. And hey, when playing comp leagues, and such, totally get metamaxxing. When the same groups ran the meta in public queues, then tell their comp L2P and such? It's just being dbags, sorry, lol.

Anyhow, point being, on my side, that while metas will always exist, and the most competitive players and team will always be looking for that razors edge, such clear cut and obviously broken metas as MWO has repeatedly had, are never good, and never need to happen. Good games have metas, but they are much less pronounced, and often only truly noticeable for the most competitive players, which is how it should be.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 January 2015 - 07:15 AM, said:

try skill?

if TBR/SCR/DWF is skill then TDR with 3 ERPPCs is skill too...